Wesse, I do so understand your feelings of rage, and hurt and resentment. This is a very hard one for me, and the only way I find I can overcome it is to not fall into the trap that my h has done, i.e. that relationships are perfect and conflict-free. As you know, it's imperative to focus on the positives, and from your post, I can many of them. It's also a lot easier for others to see hope where we sometimes see none. First of all, his admission that ow is a cold, unremorseful B is a huge step. I doubt I would ever hear such an admission from my h, and since I don't know ow personally I can't comment on her personality. All I can see is what I see from him, and their work together, and what I see is someone who is keen to travel upward, and someone who feels it is not wrong to discuss the intimate details of her marriage with another man, and someone who is fairly rigid and orderly. I have watched as my h has done projects that are far below his level of competence and I can only surmise that he does them, and seeks them out in order to impress her, or at least in order to work with her. Part of his mlc is that he has not reached where he feels he should be, and from what I see, he has allowed himself to be deflected from his path primarily because of his attitude and his interpersonal skills with certain employers and also because of his desire to be admired, respected, and so he does things where younger, less accomplished (especially women) people will be in a position to do so. And yet, I feel he has blamed me for the fact that he has fewer friends since marrying me, and he has not reached the career heights he had hoped for. (I'm not exactly sure how it is I prevented him from reaching these heights, but that's what I have.) I expect that my h's ow does sincerely like him, but I also suspect that he lifts her out of her occasionally mundane existence, and it probably keeps her in an EA frame of mind, so that she never fully commits herself to her h. But that is their problem and not mine.
Men have a need to be right, to be seen as admirable. Your h needs you to put this behind you for that reason. Can you try focusing on his good qualities (which I'm sure you do for the most part). He didn't leave, and so in effect he did choose you. He struggled in his own way to do the right thing. People who are stuck on their image, are really very fragile inside, and in order to feed that image, they need to keep all the dark aspects of themselves hidden. Guess who gets the benefit of seeing that dark side? Not ow, that's for sure. Maybe if you choose to make him ahero, he'd find it easier to live up to that standard at the same time as you call him on other things. This is a tough one for me, but honesty can begin with you. I've found if I reveal myself without blaming h, he becomes more open. There will always be certain things he will not admit to, as perhaps there are things none of us want to admit to. As far as my ordeal, I consider it ended. While my h is being nicer, warmer, and all the rest, I have experienced these mlc remissions in the past, only to discover a few weeks later that he is back to being cold, indifferent, unfeeling toward me, etc. I can safely say that where I am right now, if my h were to steer us back into that dark past, I would not follow, but turn around and head in my own direction without him. I have many dark days, too, Wesse, where I mull over things. Obsess really, but I also see that I have ignored the people in my life who really do need me, and love me, namely my children, and especially my son. I can see the price I've paid, in that he has sort of moved on himself, because I have been so preoccupied with saving my marriage. A noble cause, for sure, but where nobility is done at such a high price to someone who really does depend on you, and loves you, is it worth it? I now have a real job in front of me, restoring the relationship with my son, and in some ways I'm at a loss as to how to do it. I feel like shaking him and saying, look I'm back, I love you, I always loved you, and I'm sorry I was obsessing on Daddy at your expense but get over it. Does this sound familiar, in that your h may very well be saying that to you? I wonder if my h feels that way toward me. If so, it's a perfectly normal response, but certainly a hard one to suffer for the one who has felt the sting of those insults and anger, and twisting knife of betrayal.
AlexN, I have copied your last response because I think it will help me to reread it from time to time.
My h does seem to need to be a hero. My h takes on work in a particular area of his practice that in not financially rewarding. While he enjoys that area of practice, I think he likes it primarily because of the many accolades that come with it. I can freely encourage him to do this because there is no ow type temptation for him here.
My h is also one of the stubbornest people I have ever known, but most people that know him would never guess that about him. He is never WRONG about anything, but he'd never realize that about himself.
It is relatively easy to play ow and make him happy by playing a role. I did that for months during and after the affair when we were still in what I call the crisis stage. However, in his mlc he wanted a wife who was well known professionally, extremely active in church and community affairs, who was a physically fit specimen, who exercised with him for almost an hour daily, and who turned heads whenever she walked into any room. In his mlc, he was struggling to be the best in everything - prioritizing did not exist. Part of my resentment came from the struggle to meet all of his truly unrealistic expectations. Finally, I recognized what was going on and we discussed the choices that we must all make in life. It is not possible to have it all. I was struggling to be me, ow, & Katie Couric (sp?) all wrapped up into one. My h is not a wise person. He had those same unrealistic expectations of himself.
His career in a small town has not gone where it could've with his intellect, drive, and energy if he'd chosen practice elsewhere, BUT he also likes small town family life. Choices again.
Your description of ow applies both to my h & his ow. Both are "rigid, orderly, stuck on their image, and really very fragile inside." In order to "feed that image," they REALLY DO "need to keep all the dark aspects of themselves hidden." That was really insightful. I think that is probably why h cannot bring himself to discuss the affair. It makes him feel so small. He would prefer to be a philanderer than a man "desparate for attention." This was dragged out of him by our MC in several counselling sessions. I expect it also explains why ow blames me and is so disdainful. She cannot face what she did so she just doesn't.
Your ow feels it is not wrong to discuss the intimate details of her marriage with another man. She just chooses not to examine her actions. People who are involved in affairs just don't judge themselves by the same standards they apply to others. I think people who perceive themselves as good or pious often fall into that trap. If they are thinking it, feeling it, or doing it, it must be ok. That's why the secrecy of affairs is so dangerous. This logic does not hold up under examination, but the 2 affair partners have an unspoken agreement not to question.
Your h's blaming you for all his shortcomings strikes me as almost childlike. My h did the same thing. Our MC said that he had begun to view me in the role of Mother. He took on the teenage psyche where he avoided M's rules and shirked responsibility for himself.
Your h seems to be doing that also. This was something my h had to work out with a 3rd person. It was very difficult for him to face those things. He finally realized that he was very jealous of my successes in many areas. He was proud of me, but my accomplishments made him feel smaller. Ow on the other hand is a very pretty little person who has mastered all the feminen wiles and who constantly fed his ego.
I think ow admired things about me that are missing from her personality. She is rigid - I am a free spirit. She is incredibly uptight - I'm laid back. She is totally introverted - I wear my heart on my sleeve and function best as a problem solver. I also do not doubt that she coveted certain things about our lifestyle. Her h is wealthy, but her life is truly boring. You mention that your ow is mundane. I wonder if she envies and covets your life.
You said that she never fully commits herself to her h. The same is true of our ow. Still is after almost3 years. In fact, she seems to feel obligated to prolong the appearance of a bad marriage. That seems to be a necessary part of her public image defense to what she did with my h. I suspect that the primary focus of her life is to keep all the dark aspects of herself hidden. This strikes me as so strang because God has blessed her with so many talents and gifts.
I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling with the effects of the past years on your son. How old is he? My h did not choose to come home, but he did finally look at our son's needs. He came home to plan an exit that would be less hurtful to our son. He feels that God intervened by leading me to find ow's letters. Our son was pushed aside an awful lot during the after math of the affair. We'd talk for hours leaving him to his own devices. I have always been especially close to him and still am. He did need more independence, but this was a tough way to grow into it sink or swim. He has become closer to my h. I had not realized just how withdrawn from family life my h was because I had always just unthingkingly taken up the slack.
You said, "I now have a real job in front of me, restoring the relationship with my son, and in some ways I'm at a loss as to how to do it." I hope that you can figure out a way to involve your h in this process. If he could shoulder some responsibility here, he could be quite a hero to both of you.
You said, "I feel like shaking him and saying, look I'm back, I love you, I always loved you, and I'm sorry...." My h has said almost those exact words to me more times than I can count. I needed more. Perhaps your son will also. He too may need some earnest and honest age appropriate discussion of that recent history.
My son doesn't know the gory details, but I have talked to him in many short and some long time bites that add up to countless hours. He feels pretty comfortable with what went on. My primary goal was that he feel that his family is secure, and I think he does. I also think he appreciates our "age appropriate" honesty about our problems. That's where the security comes from.
The enlightening thing for me was that this child who is very attuned to his family never asked one question when our interactions changed so drastically. We were suddenly spending hours in earnest closed door sessions and sometimes yelling at one another. This was totally out of character for him -he also usually wears his heart on his sleeve.
I do hope that you and your h can work together to help your son and that you will continue to post about him.
Hi Wesse, now I'm having a down day. For me, it's the obsession of whether he was sleeping with ow. I know that's not the point, because the emotional betrayal has been devastating enough. There's also the prospect of other women. It's the lying, and the refusal to talk about anything. You've been lucky, at least your h will go to marriage counselling. Mine won't, and probably because he's worried I have some questions he doesn't want to answer. I really don't think we'll ever get beyond this wall we keep banging up against. When you combine the lying with the cheating, and then add their blame on top of all that, and then the two or more years I've been trying to prove to him that I'm here for him, I just think why bother? He's the one who cheated and lied, not me. He's the one who got obsessed about some ow, and did everything he could to protect her, suck up to her, and so on, not me. I'm sick of having to make home a safe place for him. How about making it safe for me? How about making some amends, or trying to meet me halfway? No, he's more interested in being right, and in finding and keeping his perfect soulmate. I have a deadline, and the way I'm feeling today, it can't come soon enough. I'm just so sick of the whole damned scenario I could puke. I know exactly when Jenny says you try and save your marriage, but what of yourself do you destroy in the process? My h hasn't even tried to say he's wanting to make it work, and what am I hanging onto? Babysteps? After two or more years of babysteps, I figure I'd go farther walking in the other direction. And yes, Wesse, there are many many days I feel I don't want the marriage. No relationship is worth this amount of heartache, this amount of grovelling, or this amount of having to take a backseat to someone else's whims. It's not like this was unusual behaviour on his part, extreme, yes, but not unusual. I honestly don't think he's ever been committed and I wonder if he's ever even loved me. Probably not. He seems only to want to give his love to those who are hard to get. Only he'd say he's giving it to those who he can communicate with. Then by all means, you've spent three years wondering about this, so go find your communicative soul-mates, and leave me alone to get on with my life. For me, it's not really her fault, although if I knew that she was encouraging him, and that they were physically involved, I'd probably change my tune. If I wer ein your shoes, I'd probably opt to change churches. I don't think you need that in your face all the time. I couldn't stand it, for sure.
Been reading your posts here...I know how hard it all is. My H had an A while overseas for his job, he lied and lied, and then just for a change, lied some more. I finally found out the WHOLE truth last Nov. He/I never left and we are 'working on it' but I still relate to the hopelessness you feel. And like you and Wesse were discussing, the NEED to know WHY. That one still eludes me/us, H says it wasn't about me, or us, but he's not really entirely sure what it was....gee, that's helpful, huh. It is very hard not to obsess over that one, and all the other 'unknowns'.
I also wish there was something I (or anyone) could say...but I know there is not, except you are not alone!
Something you said stuck me tho..." He seems only to want to give his love to those who are hard to get" and I was wondering if you'd tried a 180? Because I don't know the whole story please forgive me if this is a 'been there, done that' sort of thing. Another thing that has helped me, besides the 180-which I practice DAILY- is going dark. I am normally an extroverted-type A personality-it sounded so familiar when y'all were talking about your personalities...I'm the same....but not really so much anymore. I have learned to 'temper' myself. It's making him raise an eyebrow-he thought he had me all figured out. Also...if your struggle to try to 'make your home safe for HIM' is not helping you, then don't try so hard. That's not saying to make it an UNSAFE place for him but you need to focus on YOU. I mean, if nothing else, it might serve as a wake up call to him if he can see that you are doing for YOU for a change. If what you are doing right now is not working...do something else.
It is hard tho, I know. My H never 'left' once I got the whole truth, the A went on for a couple of months while he was gone for that year and was over well before he came home. At the time I only believed it to be EA...didn't admit PA until Nov when I had contact with OW-she said she'd not heard from him in over 10 months and had no idea he was married (even called him an "ass" -pardon the language-her words). To go through all of this and still have them 'there' is tough...maybe not as tough as if they had left.... but I'm not sure about that one.
It is so diffucult to be any way than the way you've always been...I never really thought there was 'all that much wrong' with our M before he left-I guess I was really wrong. Now that things are getting back to the way they used to be, it scares the heck out of me. If I 'missed it before...how would I ever recognize in the future?
I hope you are feeling better, and hey, have a good day, there are a lot of great people on these boards....we're here for you!
Hi Me2, Thanks for your words. Friday was just a bad day for me. I went home and h knew it immediately, asked what was wrong. I told him I didn't think I could handle the intimacy anymore, that I loved him, loved that aspect, but I was left feeling very vulnerable afterwards without the commitment. He said he wants to stay, does not want to go, and that he has refrained from saying ILU because he thought I would probe him on how he knew for sure this time, cause we've been down this road so often. We are by no means there yet, wherever there is, but it looks like we are recovering. What's difficult for me right now is learning to trust again, and after so many months of successful detachment, how to make those baby steps myself back to a place where I feel safe. I believe my h realizes this now, however. His obsession over ow is over, I think, he says anyway, although he has said that before. I think his obsession for her made him preoccupied with trying to win her (back?) -- there must have been some encouragement from her at least at the beginning, or he wouldn't have fallen that far for her. But she put a halt to it, when he got too serious and intense. He has spent the better part of two or more years trying to show her what a great catch he is, and comparing himself favourably to her h. In the meantime he has left me out in the cold. In turn, I have done a similar thing to my son, ignoring him when he realy needed me, in order to obsess on my h. It is such a tangled thicket that it does seem a lot easier just to extricate yourself altogether and leave. That's where my head was at in the past three months, fully prepared to leave, and feeling good about that.
Hm, the trust thing....I wonder how many times I will say to myself as I read post after post...I know how you feel.
How do we trust again, after having been SO lied to, over and over and so hurt, humiliated, devistated...etc., etc. My biggest question for H is 'ok, so HOW exactly do I know that from THIS point forward, you tell me will be the truth this time'. I was so confident in my marriage, that he'd never cheat on me....now that I am living my worst nightmare, I am not so sure I will ever fully 100%, UNCONDITIONALLY trust him again...at least not for a long time. I guess I should consider myself lucky in that my H is trying, as much as he is able.
I can also relate to the kids thing...I have two boys, now 5 1/2 and 4 and it's a terrible (yet wonderful) thing when they just hug you and let you cry and tell you 'it's ok mommy'. My oldest even rubs my back, like I do his. I don't think they realize about the A, they just know that I was mad at daddy for being gone and VERY sad because I missed him so much. I did not speak ill of my H, as much as I wanted to, he is a good father. But I can see how my actions, anger, sadness, and depression have affected them. I have been trying to reverse that and allow them to see a happier me.
One day at a time, and hopefully tomorrow will be even better than today.
Alex, I've been away for a few days or I would've posted earlier.
I am so sorry that your h has refused to commit for so long. I do think he made a giant step forward in your last talk.
My h also refused to commit for some time after his ea ended. It seemed like an eternity to me then because I had been trying so hard for a # of months before I discovered the affair.
For about 6 weeks after he broke it off with ow, he refused to SAY ILU. I had to constantly remind myself that I could see love in his actions although he was struggling with a huge ego, his self concept, and many confusing emotions.
Finally, I told him I was no longer willing to take the risk and that he needed to love me or leave me. He said that he did love me and he expressed some of the same concerns as your h.
Months later, when he first saw ow at church some 3.5 months after contact ended, he had an emotional relapse. He said things like he didn't know if he could ever give me the exclusive love I wanted/ needed...it was a struggle for him to decide whetner to fully commit to our marriage.
After several days of his putting me through emotional hell, I told him I was not the least interested in having him decide to commit to me. I just wanted him to HONOR the commitment he'd made years ago. If he didn't feel that he could do that then let me help him pack.
It was when I reached my limit that he jumped down off the emotional fence. By then so much damage had been done that I'll probably never fully trust his judgment again. He needed me to make that decision for him. I realize that my h is not good at life decisions without help. He needed help finding his way out of the fog, but his pride wouldn't let him admit that. Ow had falsely convinced him that he was this strong hero that could master anything. Both of them were fooling each other.
I don't know much about your h's ow so I don't know how she figures into this (but I can guess.) I can see the same pridefullness in your h that plagues my h.
I think your h is one of those people (like my h & his ow)who has built up this tremendously inflated self image. He wants to be admired and respected as a super person, but he doesn't/can't always measure up. Why do people have to be heroes to be content with themselves. Where does this competitiveness come from?
I think your h won't go to counseling because he is extremely paranoid about any self examination or anything that remotely resembles criticism from another person. His decisiveness appears to him to be strength, but in fact it is weakness. He has probably set his personal expectations for himself (and probably for you) that are far beyond anyone's reach.
He has placed ow on a pedastal. If he can develope a relationship with her then he must be up on that same plane. In other relationships we call it "social climbing."
Now, about your making him feel safe...... I agree with Me2 that perhaps it's time for a 180. I am not sure that your h wants to be safe. He wants to be a master, an achiever, a success in all things. You see he's my h's soul twin.
I did everything I could to be the woman that my h needed...... BUT he was looking for the woman that he WANTED. Forget needs..... he's stuck on his wants.
Work on yourself. Until he places values your good qualities, he won't respond to you the way you want him too.
I think that when I put my foot down and made demands on my h, he was actually attracted to the strength. Whatever it was, what I had been doing wasn't working so at the time I just didn't figure I had a lot to lose.
Wesse, what you say is so, so true, and you don't know how much you've helped me today. It's amazing how much you perceived in my h's actions and assigned traits that are definitely there, but that I haven't pinpointed. About needing to see strength in me, and not wimpiness or neediness, that's so true. The last six months or so I have really started focusing on myself, my career, and trying to give my kids an extrqa boost. My h I think felt a little left out, but knows he deserved it. I do believe he truly feels sorry for having caused me so much pain, but I think he's at a loss as to how to make it up to me. I also believe that the ow is very much tied into their work persona and perception of themselves. I think he believed that she was solely responsible for his attaining new heights in his career, and that with her around, he was, not invincible maybe, but at least they could be such a team. I have been ,like you, rather unpredictable in my whims (which he was attracted to initially), and also very generous in my support of whatever he wanted to do career-wise. My sil told him once that very few women would have put up with some of the career choices he'd made. But to me, that is not the issue, of how much money you need to make, to me it is finding a work that is a vocation. I finally am finding and feeling my way in this vocation-thing myself, and it is a very good part of my life. My own insecurities come from having had my h sneaking around behind my back, on chat lines, putting out an internet ad for himself, things like that. I once told him that if that is what he was up to, then he needed to leave, because I wouldn't put with screwing around. Perhaps he just went underground. But I have an obsessive twist, and Jenny has admonished me on this score on a number of occasions in the past. I know it could be my undoing, but I also believe that my h could go a long way to soothing those anxieties I have. I couldn't even begin to list the anxieties because I'm not sure what they are exactly and where they come from originally. I just know that he makes me feel very insecure, and in fact always has (as if he could leave anytime he wanted, and that I am not the greatest thing since sliced bread), and it is a feeling I don't like at all. I have found, as well, that being strong and assertive has worked well, not just for h, but has done immeasurable things for my own self-esteem. Anyway, thanks again Wesse, and I'm glad you resurfaced. We could compare notes from time to time. Alex
Jenny if you are still lurking, I'd like your advice. I am now having some problems with my 8-year-old son. He is scared to go to sleep, he grinds his teeth at night, he is defiant and rude, etc. This just started in the last couple of months, since the tension started to ease up around here. Is this post traumatic stress syndrome, and if so, is there any advice you have on how to handle this?
Alex... I do read the posts on my thread, since,I am notified by email whenever a new entry appears.I don't consider that "lurking"...but,like to remain updated in re to my thread.
I have expressed my views on many topics in the last couple of years and when I find myself advising the same thing repeatedly..it's time to take a break.
However,in regards to your son's behavior,I feel compelled to reply.Often, dysfunction in a family is manifested in the children.These precious innocents absorb the drama around them and,of course, eventually outlets are required for tension and anxiety.
The symptoms you have described are most definitely stress related and need to be addressed immediately by both you and your husband and perhaps a professional.Bruxism(teeth grinding) is a symptom of anxiety,tension and repressed emotions.
Alex, you seem to spend quite a bit of time on this site reviewing your marital problems and that can be a positive outlet and coping mechanism that has helped you to "hold it together"during troubled times.However,I must caution you to avoid neglecting your children and if anything give them additonal love,support and time with you.
Their fears/anxieties will diminish...but they need to feel safe and this is going to take time,effort and patience.Fortunately, your 8 yr old has not reached puberty when any sort of instability in the family can cause more serious problems.
Alex, I do hope that your relationship with your husband has improved and that your family is in a "healing mode".However,as I have related, in sharing my own experience,there is a residual effect of a marital crisis on everyone in the family.You may continue to see some sort of acting out behavior on the part of your children and experience unresolved feelings of anger within yourself.Expect it,embrace and let it go. Only then,you will successfully navigate through the aftermath.
When a marriage is "saved",it does not mean that a "magic wand" is waved over the family and all problems disappear.When one is so intently focused on preventing the distintegration of their marriage,everything else tends to take a back seat.
Unfortunately... all deferred issues and feelings eventually manifest in one way or another!I do believe that if you are prepared for the "down" after the the "high" of reconciliation,you will better understand the myriad of emotions within yourself and other disturbances within the family system.
My husband loves me,now,more than he ever has and I feel it daily.Fortunately,we are pulling together to deal with the damage caused by the previous trauma in our marriage.It is not easy...but we are accomplishing quite a bit!
I regret the effects, of both my behavior as well as my husband's, on our dear children.However,I did the best I could and because of my efforts our family has remained intact and secure.
Nothing is perfect in this "best of all possible worlds" and we each are given life lessons to learn.
Take good care of yourself and your children...Jenny
[This message has been edited by 17baker445 (edited 03-17-2001).]
