Hi LS, Haven't seen any posts from you lately, so it's good to see you here.
Good luck tomorrow. I hope everything goes well. What type of conference do you have tomorrow? Do both you and your H have to be there. Sounds like your h is rethinking things. I'll keep you in my prayers.
I just wanted to wish everyone Happy Holidays. I know I am having a hard time dealing with my husband not being with me for the Holidays. I do find it rather interesting that he has been calling me a lot more lately just to say Hey! Boy I wish that I knew what he was thinking. We spoke last night on the phone and told each other to have a nice Christmas. It was strange. I will be spending the Holidays with my family and friends and will possibly be traveling to Virginia to see some old friends of mine. We will see what the weather holds. I hope that you all have (or try to have) a joyous Holiday season.
Hi LS, Hope you also have a great holiday! Interesting that your H is calling just to say hey. Guess all we can all do is be patient and see how it all works out. Keep working on you!
Hi LS, Things for me are the same with H. I am moving through this though. Miss him and would love to be back together, but we have very little contact.
Just wanted to see how everyone was doing. I am at work right now and I cannot really go into what is happening in my life, but I will get back with you all later. I hope all is well and have a great weekend!!!
Basically, things are going well with us despite regularly having to deal with ow at church. It is hard when she shows no remorse and continues to appear to be the paragon of virtue.
I have had a backslide of anger and resentment this week. I suppose that may be because their affair started exactly 3 years ago.
At a relatively early time in our recovery, our counsellor told me (in the presence of my h) not to talk to my h about my negative feelings. She told my h that all he could do was to let me hurt. Well, that probably would've been ok if the feelings had ever been dealt with. Instead, my h had just ducked & dodged the truth with comments like: "As much as I'd like to I can't rewrite history," "I was a real jerk, I have no defense for the terrible things I did and said - I did and said those things because I really believed I wanted her at the time," and "I just don't remember anymore so I just can't tell you anything that I haven't already said...." He managed to delay so long that he never did have to deal with the issues.
It is my belief that suppressing anger and resentment may have kept it from going away. I am pretty sure that has been true for me. I suppress anger and resentment now because I feel that nothing positive will come from talking with my h about how I feel.
The questions I had/have do not involve physical interactions during the affair(ow would not let it become sexual).. I had so many questions about how much he considered me, our children, our family and friends, his expectations for ow's children...... the full list is much longer. I still feel when I see ow that she knows so many things that I don't. I think that open & honest discussions would've helped me understand how seriously entangled they were or whether it was more like verbally "playing doctor." I think that there would even be some mitigating circumstances that on their face seem so bad (for ex. they only did/said this when they could've done that).
At first, I backed off believing that, when my h had healed, he would be better able to discuss my concerns and I would be better able to handle the painful answers. However, the truth is that once time passed, he took the position that I should be over it. Also, a new excuse was born - lack of memory. Now when anything comes up, H just blames ow for being so cold-hearted toward me. He'll routinely say we should leave the church or our town. Neither of these are remotely practical or possible for many reasons. Neither his blame nor her cold-heartedness helps.
My h's inability or unwillingness to help me with my concerns has been hard. Seeing & interacting with ow regularly has been difficult. Because of our unavoidable continuing relationship with ow, I need to deal with this. It is pretty clear that my h will never be able to help me.
This has been longer than I intended. I seem to have no choice but to deal with my feelings myself (with the help of these boards). With time, the occurence of the negative feelings and their intensity has greatly diminished while my ability to cope has greatly improved. However, my anger and resentment remains a significant blemish on our recovery.
[This message has been edited by wesse (edited 03-03-2001).]
Hi Wesse! I have avoided posting due to my attempt to deal with my own feelings over what happened in my marriage,too.(My anger is greater,when I read of the heartbreak that others coninue to suffer)
Yes,Dbing worked in repairing my marriage,but it seems that I gave up part of my very soul in the process.
In repressing my own feelings about my H's actions,I have injured myself.
Wesse,you and I and others like us are most likely suffering from some sort of "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome".I have had "flashbacks" of painful memories at significant times in the past year.
My children have suffered,too and continue to have problems that are directly related to the unstable household they lived in during the tumultuous beginning months of what seemed to be the breakup of their family.
Wesse,I am glad you posted and I empathize....totally.Life willl never be the same for us in terms of "feeling safe",but we have to work on moving on and growing in a positive direction.In my case,I haven't felt my H has really told me,he is sorry for the pain he caused me.
Last week,I broke down and shared some of the feelings,I have conveyed here,to him and he did apologize.It helped somewhat,but I need more.
It is obvious that the DB approach requires considerable restraint on the part of the "DBer".This,however can cause a negative aftermath for those of us who basically "toughed it out" at our own expense...Jenny
[This message has been edited by 17baker445 (edited 03-03-2001).]
Wesse, and Jenny, it was so good to hear from two old-timers. And I was especially cheered to hear that you have doubts that plague you from time to time (as sick as that may sound). The rest of us need to hear that even succes stories have backslides and life doesn't go completely smoothly. I guess that we're culturally trained to think all or nothing, problem to resolution, but no relationship is conflict-free, as we tried to drum into our spouses brains from time to time during the battles. At least that's what I keep telling myself! When you're trying to save your marriage, you can set goals and do it, because it's sort of a black and white situation. When you're in recovery, it's more like tripping over minefields, hoping not to blow the whole thing up and go back to square one. The sweeping under the carpet is a common occurrence, I'm finding, Wesse. My h is starting to be much nicer, and so on, but what it's doing to me is allowing all those repressed emotions to surface. You fight to save the marriage and then when it appears the trouble is coming to an end, you start to sabotage your efforts because a) you're afraid to allow vulnerability and go back there and get beaten down again, and b) you're suddenly wondering what you were fighting for. I need to deal with those repressed emotions, and like your h, my h will refuse to deal with them. When he's poked his head out of the tunnel in the past, he retreats very quickly when it gets to the sticky situation of having to deal with my hurts (it means making a commitment of one sort or another). He doesn't want to be reminded and he doesn't want to be blamed. Meanwhile, I'm trying to deal with the desire to respond to my h's new warmth and my skepticism over why you seem to want this, especially since he's voiced no recommitment, or desire to regain the marriage. So my question gets to be do I keep up the distance because I may get slapped very badly again, or do I respond with warmth and risk emotional abuse that may come my way again? It's a question of OUR feeling safe again. And many many things can remind us of when we didn't feel safe at all. (In my case, I still don't very much at all, even though my h's frost seems to be thawing a little bit).
I still think you can DB effectively during this period, but the techniques are different, and part of it is we don't like having to do techniques. It sounds so manipulative, but if you break it down and analyse it isn't at all. For example, being unavailable is it to catch h's attention, or is it because you need refreshing and time to lick your wounds. In my case, if I was trying to catch h's attention, it would fail, but if it was solely for my own good, he would notice. I recently read Coloroso's book Kids are Worth It, and thought it helpful in these situs too. Her description of the jellyfish and brick wall families describe my two fluctuating approaches to everything in life, but my goal is to be a backbone person. We are strong womena nd can be intimidating. I think we also share something else -- we don't really know what our h's were up to and in our dark, obsessive moments we ask why, what, and how will I know if it's happening again. In those moments we need reassurance that our h's either can't or wo't give. It would have almost been better to know about an actual affair and have everything in the light, and be able to deal with it. For me, just knowing the intensity of feeligns my h has or had for his EA and how he continues to protect her, pursue her, try to impress her, and fashions projects so they'll work together hurts a lot, but without the physical connection my h feels justified keeping things from me. Just as he did with chasing other women (and I suspect those were more than just EAs), he feels that because he felt out of the marriage, it was justification for what he did and how he treated me. Whenever I've tried to broach this subject, because for me it would be better int he open (I think), he clams up and retreats even farther. It's past in their minds, and they prefer to leave it that way, because they feel guilty. I think it's part and parcel of the spouses we are dealing with and partly the male nature to act this way (there was murder mystery on TV not long ago, depicting an older couple, whose only child had died 40 years before due to neglect by the h to get her to the hospital in time, despite his wife's frantic please. For 40 years, he blamed his wife for everything that was wrong in his life, and refused to even have a picture of their daughter out on display -- he shouldered her with the guilt he felt inside.)
Another part of the anger, Wesse, comes from the feeling that our spouses regard us as the good old solid workhorse who handles all things and we feel unappreciate, especially since others receive or received the passionate attention we might sometimes have like to have. Oddly, it is often those OWs who are extremely manipulative and we are the ones who get accuses of strategizing or being manipulative because we wanted to save our marriages. I think it speaks more to the nature of the spouse, who often feels deep down they are unworthy, and yet strives to maintain a facade of perfection and rightness for fear their whole house of cards will tumble if they admit any wrongdoing.
There was a recent book review that I thought you'd like Jenny. The Myth of Sanity: Divided Consciousness and the Promise of Awareness, by Martha Stout. She treats survivors of traumatic events, who often have anorexia. She describes these survivors, the ones who actually pull through successfully, of having a far greater passion for life than the rest of us who just "survive." In some ways, I think this "surviving" is what our spouses were trying to overcome when they went through their mlc. And we, having gone through the trauma of that war zone, are now also survivors. I guess what I'm getting at is that in order for us to survive what our h's have done to us, or continue to do to us, is to turn our attention to really living with passion. To stop just ticking off the daily routine stuff as it gets done. As Stout says, to these survivors of trauma, after recovery, everyday misery is just simply unacceptable. I think that's what you were getting at Jenny, when you suggested reading Lillian Hellman's autobiography, and also Joan Anderson's Year by the Sea. It is so easy to slip into the lure of our marital situation, and in some ways it's work-avoidance for what's really important in life. I know this sounds kind of lecturing, but I'm also trying to convince myself of this truth. Dissociation during trauma is common, and it's probably what we did during our h's mlc crisis; Stout says the problem comes later when the ordeal is over, and the tendency to be disconnected from ourselves remains. Old terrors come back and we feel safe by taking psychological vacations from reality. The review really hit home for me, because I have felt very much like that the last little while.
I'm sorry to ramble on so, but I was so glad to hear from both of you, that I wanted to respond.
I am doing much much better, by the way Jenny, than I was some months ago. It happened little by little when I started to let go of worrying about h and his antics (though I still get into those obsessive modes sometimes), and started trying to engage in my own life. It's hard, especially for someone who has wrapped her life and identity around her partner.
Jenny, and AlexN, Thank you so much for responding when I was feeling down.
I posted or attempted to post a reply to you, but somehow it never made it to the board. After an incredibly busy weekend, I am feeling much better although I know that those negative feelings will resurface from time to time. I did want to thank you both for your responses.
Jenny, I am especially sorry that your children are suffering. Our son never really knew the facts. We told him a very small part of what had happened in case he heard something from a friend. Relatively few people know about my h's ea with ow, and they seem to have been very careful not to repeat it. Those who may have heard gossip would never believe it of ow.
AlexN, I agree that it is good to see that someone else has similar experiences. Although I do go a bit nuts from time to time, it helps to understand that its just part of the horrible aftermath. I am glad to hear that you h is being nicer. Your h's work situation sounds so much more difficult to live with than our church situation. I liked your "workhorse" observations.
I read quite a number of "relationship books" early on, but I think that some of the books you both mentioned will be better suited for this stage in recovery. I also may do some reading on post traumatic stress syndrome because my reaction has been very different from any earlier life experience.
I think that our MC set us up for trouble in giving my H an excuse to move on without openness and honesty. Our MC did well in getting us through the initial crisis. She was able to say things to my h that he just didn't hear from me. She gained his trust and respect and then made him reconsider his view that ow was both his soul mate and the perfect woman. However, she would/could never push him to dig very deeply into what he'd done once he acknowledged that his ea was based on fantasy and that his negative view of me was unmerited. He discovered that once he presently resolved to be a good husband and he admitted that he had been a total jerk acting out a fantasy, then the MC was going to let him off the hook as far as the affair was concerned. It did and still does matter to me what actually happened. I don't mean sex. Ow's trespass into my h's heart and his entanglement in hers hurt me far more than a trespass of bodies would have. However, I am glad that sex is not one more trigger that we have to deal with.
It seems to me that I NEED to get it all out in the open... to get rid of any special secrets, memories, etc they had... to understand what he did and why... to have h WILLING & ABLE to talk freely about her as assurance there remains no weird "chemistry" or other "connection" there. I think that perhaps the worst for me is that I can't feel that he is completely over it until he can talk about it. Just the willingness to open it all up would be so meaningful! It seems closely related to Steve Harley's ideas about total honesty. There probably are personality types who don't need to air it all out. If the roles were reversed, I expect that my h probably would RUN from facing the facts.
Our MC talked a lot about whether I WANTED to stay married. That seems to be only the tip if the iceberg of issues to be decided when there is a marital crisis. I probably would not order my son's Father out of our home absent a problem substantially as serious as a severe personality disorder, drug problem, etc.
My H thinks he has shared much information with me, but I feel that most of what I found out I guessed or figured out by obsessive analysis of what facts I had from h, ow, & the few of ow's letters that I found. My h did not admit anything until I first had evidence hard enough almost to stand up in court. Early on, we would go round and round for hours or days over things. Finally, I'd have parts 1-5 & 7-10 of a puzzle and he's admit part 6. My counselor could not understand why I had to know. I cannot IMAGINE marriage without honesty. To me honesty after an affair includes disclosure and discussion. My h developed the worst memory on record short of amnesia. Our MC approved this. I have never been a secretive person. I wear my heart on my sleeve and instinctively withdraw from those who either don't have thoughts, feelings, or opinions or who choose to keep them secret.
After 2+ years, I have tons of unanswered questions and I accept that they will remain that unanswered by my h. I feel that he doesn't know the many of the answers because he wouldn't deal with the issues, but I do think that he needs to deal with them for his own well being - not just for mine. He'd rather just live with the guilt.
AlexN, I appreciated your observations of irony where the ow is regarded as sincere and innocent because her manipulations are so masterfully subtle. I do think my h does now see that difference. Very uncharacteristically, my h observed a few days ago that it must be hard for me to see ow so admired by our unknowing church congregation when she continues to be such a cold-hearted unremorseful B*t$h to me (his words). He was right although I had not thought about it just that way before.
He is trying really hard to be a loving h, but to him the past was just a huge MISTAKE. He admits that, at the time, he thought that "mistake" meant the entire world to him. He says that he just didn't factor in anything else.
He actually did leave home for a few days till he realized he had no clue how to tell our son why he was leaving. He returned to go to counseling telling me we were working on our marriage and telling ow he was working out how to tell our son (I don't know which was the truth because we have never been able to comfortably discuss it... That's one of those things I have needed to air.) Days after his return, I found ow's love letters & their ea abruptly ended when I threatened to expose her immediately in Court. Until then I had believed h was just depressed & confused - both true but with ow mixed in as a catalyst for a very different reaction.
It took a huge chunk out of my life before discovery of ow and later during withdrawal and still later during h's avoidance maneuvers. I have never been more completely miserable. Something that now means nothing to him, completely devastated me for almost a year followed by another year+ of feeling like there was no security in my life.
My h says I just need to focus on what we now have for my own sanity. Yet, I feel that I don't know what we have till I know just who he really is and who he will be when the chips are down again.
It helps me to express these feelings to someone who won't say just be glad he came home (can't say he chose me because he really didn't) I do feel less angry and resentful with time, but it those feelings combined with hurt and insecurity definitely are there to resurface from time to time. I may choose not to say or do anything about those feelings, but that's not saying they've completely disappeared.
I'm not generally worried about him cheating anymore. He and ow seem to detest each other. I don't think either of them can understand how the other let go so abruptly without any attempt to save their "special love." (Another issue I'd love to discuss with h)
I do think that h is unlikely to get involved in something like this again. I think there was special chemistry with ow - in some respects they are incredibly alike and some of their common characteristics are character flaws while others are real attributes.
There are time when I think that I don't really care anymore, but I think that is just discouragement surfacing. If h strayed again, I think I probably would divorce him, but even then I'd still care about the whys and wherefores.
I know that the hardest part is seeing HER all the time at church. I want peace, not anger and resentment. When I need my church the most, it's now not the place where I can find solace.
I do think my h could help me get over the anger (with true openness and honesty), but I've pretty much accepted that he won't. Until he does he won't be the hero that he so much wants to be.
Thank you for the chance to ramble on & on. I hope these ramblings will assure others that there is light at the end of the tunnel when anger, resentment, and hurt suddenly pop up. I am so glad that the tunnels are farther and farther apart, seemingly much shorter, and not so dark as they were in that first frightening year after the affair ended.
