Jenny, I need your help. I've asked everyone else around here for it, so now it's your turn. As you know my story, I have been trying to DB, but I do get stuck on over reacting, especially to myh's contact with OW. He says it was only an EA and I believe that, but he refuses to cut ties with her, and he continues to work on projects with her (since he often writes the proposals, her going with him is pretty much under his control). When I found out he was going on another trip overseas with her in September I got very upset and told him he could go, but not to bother coming home afterward. He later that evening (after going out with a friend) told me that he would leave, that it would be better than me throwing him out, and that he was planning on leaving in August anyway, after our vacation this month. Part of me feels that separation is the only way to clear the air, and to settle things one way or the other, and that I have waited two years for things to change significantly, and have done everything I can. Another part of me says I continue to react, and always about her, and that that is what is pushing my h further into the tunnel every time. I can see it, but I also have to set some boundaries. Perhaps the boundaries thing is what is bothering me the most. It almost sounds to me like my h has been planning to bolt (I even voiced this to someone on this bb the other day because he had been so nice to me all of a sudden), and that this has only strengthened his resolve o leave, and that what I've actually done is act as the heavy and done the decision making, so that I can shoulder the blame when it comes down to it. Does that sound accurate to you as an outsider? H has been very affectionate, and even a bit clingy, though still talks about how he will be a constant in the kids' lives so obviously he is not changing his position. He told his mother, while he cried, that I had asked him to leave, though I set her straight on what had preceded it. She thinks maybe I have over reacted; she thought he had been trying really hard, and he has been, but he admitted to me that something is missing, and he should leave, that he shouldn't put me through this any longer and that I deserve better. He says he cares for me, likes me, we have a great sex life, he thinks I'm a terrific person and mother, but there's a key element missing. He puts it down to how and what we talk about -- he can talk to his co-workers about anything, work-wise, and personal too, but he feels uncomfortable talking to me. I have gone through so much with this man over the past 14 years, from agoraphobia and anxiety attacks to performance anxieties to job and career changes, and all along the way we have talked about those things. I have tried inthe past year to be more open about my feelings, not with respect to him, but in more general terms, about the way I view life, and so on. He emailed me on one business trip not long ago that he was looking forward to getting to know me again, and now this. I don't know what to make of it all, except that he is confused. SHould I print off that email and give it to him to refresh his memory? Should I write him a letter about all this? Or should I just detach enjoy the vacation and let him move out in August?
I am back from the most wonderful vacation w my H and children.It was a complete change from last summer's "torture trip".
We had a terrific week together,enjoying each other and a beautiful locale.My H was romantic,affectionate and even surprised me with an exquisite piece of jewlery.(Pinch me,I must be dreaming)We have decided to take another week in August and I am so happy.
Last summer,my H was soooo miserable w me and "couldn't stand being married to me any longer".He couldn't even tolerate posing in the same photo w me.He said he had never loved me and couldn't remember why he married me.(This hurt me deeply, after 16 yrs of marriage)Ouch!
It's unpleasant to remember those torment filled days.But you see,that was not my real H.He was an imposter and a very sick man.I felt sorry for him and focused on memories of who he used to be.
My fellow DBer's, that is why I can forgive his past behavior now!It was a manifestation of an emotional crisis... symptoms of an illness.(In his case a MLC)
I spent hours on this board reaching out for support and acceptance.I am convinced it saved my sanity.This "24/7" support was essential in providing me w a lifeline during the most painful period of my life.
In additon,I read countless books which provided me w hope and energized my efforts to save my failing marriage.(At this point my house looks like a Barnes and Noble). (Mind you,my H didn't read these bookks...I did.My H refused to do anything proactive,including therapy.I went by myself!)
A comment on "going dark" a term that Step referred to on my thread...I never used that approach and see it as more of a 180 or last resort,in some cases.Every situation is similar,but different!
Step,I wonder if you are listening to what your H is telling you.He comments on life being full of chaos when you are around.It seems he feels torn and is unhappy.That could be the result of the strength of his feelings for you on some level he is not aware of.Keep filling him with love while allowing him the space he needs to figure things out for himself.No one can compete with his beautiful and confident wife.
In terms of the needy quality that many of the OW seem to display,it is the spouses' tremendously low self esteem that draws them like magnets to these "helpless creatures", who enable them to feel like "heroes" again.At one time YOU made them feel like a hero....remember?
Most of us are strong dynamic people who sparkle w personality and energy.Did we leave them behind at some point?
BTW,I never disappeared or had "no contact w my spouse".Instead,I made myself unavailable on weekends.Since,I was working in a hospital my H had no grounds to complain when he had solo time w our children.(He did "want out of our marriage",didn't he?)
I found that rekindling my career made an enormous difference in my life and helped w my ability to deatch from drama on the homefront.I felt needed and repected again!People actually liked me and looked forward to seeing me!
The most incredible thing happened...my H started to miss me and displayed some jelousy....Yes!!!!It was then I knew that I had to continue in the same direction...keep doing what works!
Alex...I had many "backslides" and I refused to let it get me down.I just got right back to DBing without hesitation.I never apologized,just picked up where I had left off.Believe,I made some huge DB errors.Unfortunately,I had to learn for myself that Michele's "solution based" approach works.These backslides probably cost me some time ,but in the long run everything was OK!
Alex,I am trying to tell you to forget what ever you told him about moving out.Don't bring it up.Just knock his socks off w good DBing and in increasing intimacy in any way you feel comfortable with.He will not leave.
BTW,my H still works w the troublemaker OW and I do not give her a second thought.She's no threat to me as my marriage is closer and better than ever.Remember,it was never about her...it was about him!Alex,I am so very impressed w your demonstrated mastery of certain DBing techniques.Been there..done that...and it works.
Kathy,keep reading and posting,but take time for some fun for yourself,too.
LStewart,how are you doing.I know how upsetting your situation is and how very frightened you must be.However,try not to "micro manage" your H's reactions and please relax.
Talk to you later,my friends Jenny
[This message has been edited by 17baker445 (edited 07-09-2000).]
Glad to hear that you had a wonderful vacation!! Oh what a difference a day, or 18 mos., makes!!
I thank you and all the other wise dber's for their support and acceptance. With Michele's wisdom and all you great examples, you help so many of us through very difficult times. Thanks.
Work has been extrememly busy. Been traveling a ton. I am going on a girls trip to Vegas for a long weekend, so that should be loads of fun. I started golfing again. My game has improved so, so much since last I golfed seven yrs ago.
Thanks again for all your support Jenny! You're doing great!!
I am new to the BB - just the last couple of weeks.
You can find my original post in the Newcomers...
I am curious, since I haven't been able to read all your posts, I did skim through your sucess story.
What was your situation how long were you DBing, were you separated during the process?
I struggle with the 'mixed' messages I get from my H. Some days he 'still loves me', 'small part of him wants to save the marriage', 'doesn't want to be divorced', 'misses me', 'has thought about coming home', 'wants sex' - the turns right around and goes out of his way to squelch any hope, tells me 'I jump right to thinking things are going to work out', when he's been 'telling me he's still fairly certain that he wants a divorce', even one day telling me that 'he'd go file tomorrow, but he gave me his word he'd wait until September' - if I go a couple days without calling - he does call...If he was truely DONE - wouldn't he just be done? Why the dangling carrot routine?
In the other forum - I posted a question 'Sex 2B or Not 2B?' Coming from the perspective of finding DBing sucessful - what is your take?
Hi Mj and welcome to the DB board.From what you have described,your H is still tied in to you,but is experiencing ambivalence.It sounds like there is an OW in the picture.<P> First it is imperative that you read Michele's books and apply the techniques immediately.<P> Re sex: I read your post and you recieved mixed advice.It is a very personl decision.However,don't do anything that makes YOU feeel bad.<P> In my case I was able to keep that connection,even though I had to become the initiator.It was an area in our marriage that had been in bad shape for years(since the children).I decided to fan the fire in my attempt to "do something different".I was detached and protected myself emotionally as it in no way guaranteed a reconcilliation.<P> To answer your questions I have been maried for 17 yrs and we have two children.Our marriage had been unsatisfying for many years.I attributed it to the pressures of childraisng and career requiremnts and hoped as pressures decreased,the marriage would improve.(Didn't happen)<P> My H treated me w a lack of TLC for about two years prior to his announcing it was over in early Feb of 99.He did not move out,but continued to apply steady pressure on me,telling me he never loved me etc and refusing to "work on the relationship in any way".<P> I followed Michele's advice and avoided pushing things to a crisis point.I listened to his complaints and tried to be a supportive friend(Very hard to do,when he was no friend of mine)Eventually,I saw "baby steps" in the right direction.Finally in April 2000,he made it known that he loved me and didn't want to leave.Alot happened in that 15 month period,many ups and downs and it took it's toll one me in irreparable ways.<P> I was motivated to save the family for the sake of my children.I was able to keep going due to my protective maternal instincts.I also hoped that eventually my H would snap out of it.There was an OW(EA) and maybe other infidelities for several yrs.I did not focus on any of it.I made as many positive changes possible in myself.<P><BR> Have to get going...hope I have been helpful....Jenny <p>[This message has been edited by 17baker445 (edited 07-10-2000).]
He swears to me that there is no OW. He just can't handle the nagging...
We have been together intimately now. It was fun, he told me how much he enjoyed being with me and that he loves me.
But, you know it tends to turn on me in some way later - because I tend to get to caught up in the after-glow and wonder how he can go back to being distant...
Thanks for sharing your story with me...
It is an incredible help to know that I am not the only one out there!
Thanks for asking about me. I thought that I would update you all on the awful things that have been happening. My husband called me at work last Thursday (he was at the house thinking I would be coming home for lunch I informed him that I had already had lunch and would not be home) he said that he had written me a letter that I would not like. He proceeded to tell me some of the things that were in the letter. One of the things that I found interesting that he said is that he hates thinking of me at the house having to look at the pictures of the two of us together because he knows that it must kill me to have to look at them because it kills him to have to come in the house and have to look at them. He says this after he says that he just does not love me like that. He wishes that this would not have happened this way but there is nothing that he can do about it. He just changes and it (marriage) is just not what he wants right now. He doesn't feel like he wants to do anything (to try and fix things). He doesn't want to do anything. He says that he tried with me and I pushed him away but he does not blame me. He wished that he felt for me but he does not right now. He said that the other OW is pushing and pulling on him (she is aggravating him because he belongs to me because I am his wife. He said that I do not push or pull on him. He knows that I am living my life right now and he is trying to live his life in another town and I live in another town (most of the time) and we have the four dogs and a house that he is not at and he hates work and he is being pushed and he does not want to hurt anyone and he is not happy right now. If he gets a divorce maybe that will be closure and then he can figure things out. He says that he does not want the other OW, He just does not want to hurt anyone. He is not happy with himself. He wishes that I did not love him because that would be easier for him. He said that he could leave her tomorrow and would not care but he does not think it would change his feelings for me. He did say that he would be willing to talk to someone (a therapist)because he says he just does not know what to do but he feels like he is stringing me along and he does not want to do that. He knows he is not happy and would be willing to talk to a therapist to see if that would help. He wants me to leave him the name and number of the person that I talk to (a colleague of Michelle's). I went ahead and told him that I have plans for the week that he is off and so he will need to take care of the dogs. He sounded surprised that I was going away and he said that he will be going somewhere for a couple of days because he needs to get away from everyone. At the end of the conversation he acts like he should not call the therapist because he does not know why he should call. Anyway I will post the letter below that he wrote me. Please bear with me this letter is long, but I really would like your opinion on it. I have been told to ignore the letter. I will tell you all that I went to the house this morning (I leave on the weekends and go to my families) and he has moved out more stuff (the cologne that I love, more clothes, etc). It killed me to see more stuff gone and just reinforced in my mind that I just need to accept that my marriage is over. I do not want it to be but I do not see that I have a choice anymore. Here is the letter:
July 5, 2000
Lissa,
Hey! How are you? Well I’m alright I guess- I’ve been gone all weekend, away from pretty much everyone and everything and I done a considerable amount of soul searching. You always told me that I communicated best when I was writing, so I decided to write you this letter and tell you how I really feel- no holds barred- I won’t have to look into your eyes and see the confusion and the hurt. I still cant seem to open up to you when your standing in front of me.
Lissa, first of all I care so very much about you and I always will. I still love you but not the way you deserve and definitely not the way I should. Somewhere we got lost, it wasn’t your fault and I don’t blame myself either. We were both wrong at some point, and both wrong with the way we dealt with it. I tried to communicate verbally but you would close up. I never liked to see you hurt or see you mad at me so I would just shut up and let it go hoping you would come around or it would change. I took your depression as my fault and it was very personal to me. At one point I loved you so very much but I just kept pulling further into myself since I felt I couldn’t reach you. I have never been able to be a confrontational person with someone I love, so I just closed up and put up walls. I know you have been to therapy and counseling and all of that and it seems like you have learned a lot, and I know you think you can bring me around but it probably ain’t going to happen.
I just don’t want this anymore. I want to be your friend and that’s it for right now. I don’t want to be married anymore. I know you keep telling me that you’ll be mad at me if I just quit our marriage, but I can’t stand the thought of stringing you along when I know don’t want it. I’ve changed- and I’m sorry- but my heart isn’t in this anymore. I would give anything to tell you that I can feel that way about you again but I don’t think I can. I never wanted to hurt you or see you cry but if I stay with you and pretend Lissa, I would only hurt you and myself even more. I want to be happy and I’m not. Please forgive me, I’m so very sorry, and please don’t hate me. You deserve so much in life and I want you to have it, I want you to have it all. I will help you with anything I can possibly help you with and I still want to be in touch in some form, if you still want to, but that’s all I can promise. I’ve made some unforgivable mistakes and it would haunt me forever and it would always be in the back of your mind also.
I want to talk to an attorney pretty soon and see what needs to happen or maybe we can do this as friends and save lots of money and I can help you out more that way but it is up to you. I don’t want to fight. I’ve had enough of that in my life. I’ll give you anything you want, the house, furniture, whatever you want. I don’t want you to need anything. Hopefully this is the biggest mistake I ever made and whenever my mind is stable I can find you and I can still be your friend but right now I want to be alone- not married. I don’t want to drag this out, hell, I’ve been gone for almost 3 months and I don’t feel any different. I’m not going to change and I’m not so sure I can. You don’t deserve to be alone every night, not knowing where I’m at or what I’m doing and I want to put an end to that. Please move on- if not for yourself Lissa- do it for me- it’s killing me. Sometimes I feel like I am crazy or just a little insane. I want you to be happy Lissa! Please don’t hate me for what has to be done. It wouldn’t be fair to you for me to stay.
With all my apologies! Jeff
I will let you all read the letter and respond. Michelle, if you read this please comment. I would really appreciate it. Thanks everyone. My PMA has gone down the tubes. I just don't know what to do anymore, but give upo and move on. I am not ready to, but I feel maybe I should. I love my husband and want him back, but he is not going to work on things, so what now?
Hi Jenny, and thanks for taking the time to reply to my query. Just to straighten out any misconceptions -- I may have said to my h not to come back after he goes on that next business trip with OW, but later that evening, he was the one who said it was his choice to leave, and that he was going to do it in August anyway, after we came back from holidays. He wanted to make sure we had a reasonably nice holiday, and didn't want to spoil it with talk about his leaving. Also, when I asked him if he was waiting for her to leave her h, he hesitated, then said "she's not going to leave her h." He had made a turnaround a couple of months ago, and then has grown steadily distant again. He clearly has made his choice, that he would rather choose her friendship and his working relationship with her, than me and his family. He has said he is unhappy and that there is something missing, and that he has tried to do the responsible thing by staying. I refrained from pointing out to him that the right thing would be to sever ties with OW. You see, as a freelance consultant, he only occasionally works for the non-profit organzaiton she works for, and since he writes up all the proposals for these projects it is perfectly within his control to NOT travel with her. I have put up with this stuff now for 2 years, and despite all his friends, family and counsellors (yes, there have been more than one) telling him he must stop that relationship, he refuses to. And now he has made his choice of her over us, so there's not a whole lot I can do about it. He maintains he likes her as a friend, and always refers to that relationship as that friendship, when in fact he had admitted to me on several occasions over the past two years that he is in love with her and has never felt this way about anyone else. Then of course there are all the problems with our marriage, hism ain complaint being one of communicating, how and what we talk about. I am not very hopeful, at least not today, and I know partof that is the anger I am feeling about the continuation of their relaitonship, which I can do nothing about, and which he refuses to do anything about. He doesn't want to do any work on our marriage, despite his protestations in April that I had been so wonderful this past several months that it was his turn to work on things. It's so easy with her, because they talk the same language and obviously she makes him feel like a hero. I will be mindful of what you say re not mentioning the move, but I must also be very careful not to get my hopes up, because when I mentioned his parents told me that he said I was forcing him to leave, he said no, absolutely not, that's not fair of them to put this on you, this is 100% my decision, and I will set them straight on that. For thepast year we have been wrangling over this issue of OW, and while I have tried to relegate it to the back of my mind, the fact that he consistently chooses her, and protects her over me and our family, really rankles, and I get very angry. Because I hav submerged my anger for so long, it is now bubbling up at times, and try as I might, I sometimes don't have control over it. It's that anger that leads to my meltdowns. I also think it is very unfair of him to continue travelling with her to these countries for two and three week trips, leaving me behind and then resenting it when I ask for him to spend time with me. Her husband is also not pleased with her relationship my h, because apparently she has done this kind of thing before -- my h protects her further by saying she has been betrayed by a few men before (even though she's been with her h since she was 16). I know he is still tied to me, especially since he doesn't have flesh and blood to go to (at least not that I know of), but what worries me is that if we continue in this vein, he will eventually find someone else, and I'd rather he go out on his own now, because i think the most dangerous relationships are the ones that are formed when you are already in a partnership elsewhere, and those are the ones that don't burn out easily because they are formed in secrecy. If he goes now, it will be just as if he is dating all over again, as he did in his 20s, and that may not be what he tinks it's going to be. I'd rather he get it over with so he can come back to me (if he does) knowing that this is truly a good thing he has here. Then again, maybe if he goes he will get used to being on his own, so I am caught between a rock and a hard place. As for intimacy, I keep thinking maybe it will make a difference, but we've tried that these last two years, and it hasn't made a difference, and the last crisis period of seven months, we had no sex, so I don't know if anything is effective. Obviously, I'm going to have to feel what is right for me, and not for this marriage. Oh I am discouraged, though I will hold on to your words, Jenny, and I thank you for them.
It's been a busy couple of days for me my vacation caused things to "stack up"...I've got a huge "to do" list.So,I m in a bit of a rush.
I leave again this weekend to go to a week long professional workshop.My time is limited again,but I will continue to stay in touch as best I can.
Lissa, I am so very sorry you received such a painful message from your H.My heart goes out to you as I know only too well what shock,disbelief and pain it must be causing you.However,my friend,you must detach from the letter and avoid overreacting.Again my advice is to tell him you are sorry he is feeling so unhappy and then drop it.Let him make all the moves re a D and avoid discussion of it. At the same time, DB like crazy and do wonderfully indulgent things for yourself.It's important that seek out good friends for support. In addition,therapy is very much in order as well as possible meds if indicated my MD.You need to take care of yourself while your H has his emotional breakdown. I still believe that if you can make yourself as dynamic and attractive as possible while maintaing some distance,that your H will be intrigued. Don't facilitate his getting a D in any way.Let him make all the moves,while at the same time protecting yourself w good legal counsel. You are walking a fine line,but can stay on top if you don't look down and stumble. His letter is emotional on many levels and I wonder if he is depressed.Most likely he is and would benefit from therapy.Encourage him to go to a solution based therapist for his own emotional growth.
Alex, I don't know if I could have held on as long as you have.Your strength has enabled you to keep your marriage from dissolving in to a divorce. ,you have been doing something right or he wouldn't have stayed this long.
It may be a last resort is in order.However,this is something only you can decide.You will know when you have had enough.I came to that point in April,when I just couldn't handle any more ups and downs and really felt that I wanted to move on w my life.I was exhausted from all the efforts I had expended to save my marriage.When I shared this w my H and calmly told him I was going away for awhile to decide what I wanted to do with the rest of my life,he made a total turn around and professed his love for me and need for our marriage.It was only after many months of DBIng and laying a good positive foundation that I felt somewhat safe in resorting to this tactic.But it was not just a tactic,I really felt that way.After reading a wonderful book (An Unfinished Woman),I felt a sense of peace and calm overcome me.I knew I needed to "find myself again" and was ready to make some changes.
Fortunately,my marriage survived and my relationship w my H improved dramatically.I thank My HP and Michele's books,messageboard and all of you for helping me to achieve success.
However,Alex,I really believe I would still feel successful if things had turned out differently.I have confidence in myself to make the best possible life I can not only for me,but for my children.
I only hope you can find some peace and a place of calm within you,too.
Good Night...Jenny
[This message has been edited by 17baker445 (edited 07-11-2000).]
Jenny