At the very least GH, it sounds like a huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders. I feel much better today for you. Another hurdle vaulted.....
Quote: The main points that kept comming up was that she wants me to just be direct and honest RIGHT AWAY when I find something like that in the future. She did't like that it took a few days but is glad I talked to her.
Seems like I've heard this somewhere before.....
Great job, I happen to bet that your day is going much better today.
All the best, Rob
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I want to post some more about last night. As with the last big R talk, there was WAY too much to post all of it but I will try to remember the things I think were most important.
First, walkingback, she actually said at the end of the convo last night "It's SO much better talking to you than you just sulking around brooding on things." So, you are exactly right, she IS screaming for me to just open up to her.
As for her being honest, everything I heard AND saw last night told me that I was hearing the truth. Her body language and eyes didn't give ANYTHING away if she was lying. Sure, I know she could have made it all up but if she did, she's one of the best liars I have ever seen and if I am taken by that, then so be it. That's a risk I am willing to take.
Here are some of the things we talked about or that were said in no particular order or context.
-First of all, it seemed like there was NO question off the board. She answered any and all questions I asked for about 2 hours (my earlier post of a 3 hour talk was a bit off).
- I asked her if she ever saw a time in the future when SHE would touch me and be intimate without me having to initiate it. She said yes and that she knows she has "issues" with that she needs to work on.
- We went into great detail about each of our intimacy issues and what about our old "intimacy-less" marriage we didn't like.
- She explained how much it hurt her never to be kissed or touched without sex being the goal. She said in our entire marriage she has never felt loved that way. I said I felt the same way but due to my own issues, I never knew how to express that.
- She went into detail about her R with OM. She admitted again that they were physical but insisted that there was no sex and that was one of the big issues that caused them to start to have friction. She said at first she wanted him to train her and then it became more. I said it sounded like she was trying to say it was all him in terms of the pursuit of the R and she said no, that she wanted it too until it became clear that he wanted more than she could give him. I asked many questions, all of which she answered freely.
- I asked her about Valentines day and she went into detail about what she did and why. She apologized again for that.
- She said over and over again that she didn't like to talk about these things with me because she knows it hurts me. I told her not to protect me and to be honest. "Haven't I taken it so far?" She agreed.
- She said she couldn't say for sure if we would make it but thought things were much better.
- I asked her what she saw when she looked at me, if she SAW me. She said she knows I look great but if I am asking if we are going to be intimate soon, that it was too soon and for a woman things are not that easy, that it's all about feelings and she has to work on that. I told her I understood and that led into a discussion where she told me that she has been spending a lot of time at the bookstore reading books on relationships!!!!! (BTW, if you follow my sitch, you know this is pretty big).
- I did manage a small kiss right around the time that she said I never did anything "different" or "romantic". I walked over to her, held her and lifted her face to give her a kiss. She didn't push away but didn't exactly reciprocate. I think she was a little shocked that I did that.
- I told her that I thought it was important that she WANT me to trust her and she said she did want that, which is why she's tried to be as open and honest with me lately. I said I appreciated that and once again encouraged her to continue that and tell me anything.
For you OT...
- I asked her if we were in a relationship where I could expect full honesty and she said yes. She said that she was not hiding anything and again, if I thought something, or found something, to just ask her immediately and she would talk to me about it.
- She did tell me that she knew something was up with me and that she wishes I could just be direct and open with her when something like this comes up instead of getting myself all worked up. I told her that IF I had been open and honest with her it would have come out as an angry accusation instead of a question and I didn't want that so I waited until I had calmed down to talk to her. She noted that I didn't seem very calm (I was shaking when I started the convo). I responded that if she could imagine that THAT was calm compared to when I found the receipt. She laughed.
All in all, there was a lot of laughter but at the end of the night, she was spent. She said she felt good that we talked but that it was emotionally draining. I gave her another little kiss, a long hug and went up to bed. She followed shortly after.
There is more and I will either post it in response to something asked or when it comes to me.
Extremely positive stuff GH! Fantastic, wonderfult and any other adjective that I can think of to describe how well that went. I'm really happy for you because this is a huge break in where things are in regard to your sitch.
Quote: She did tell me that she knew something was up with me and that she wishes I could just be direct and open with her when something like this comes up instead of getting myself all worked up. I told her that IF I had been open and honest with her it would have come out as an angry accusation instead of a question and I didn't want that so I waited until I had calmed down to talk to her. She noted that I didn't seem very calm (I was shaking when I started the convo). I responded that if she could imagine that THAT was calm compared to when I found the receipt. She laughed
Its funny how we can trick ourselves into believing that when we hold things in, that our S's can't tell, even with the fake smile on our face. They instinctively "know" something is amiss. Think about it this way, when something was "amiss" with your W, didn't you pick up on it right away? In your defense GH, I think you did at least do the right thing in NOT immediately going overboard and confronting her with it....confrontation is more akin to accusation and third degree....what you engaged in was a healthy, two way discussion of an issue that was of concern to you. This is a VERY important distinction for anyone to learn, including myself. Now contrast to how you might have reacted in the past.....seems to me that you would have run with the first option, thereby leading to arguing, resentment, anger, etc. A++++ to you my friend.
Based upon the conversation as a whole, i would say that you have come a long way in your journey.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I have to admit that I was a little disappointed that she still doesn't KNOW if she wants to stay. She said there are not guarantees in this but that she wants to see how things go. I was at least grateful for her honesty in that.
Oh, and one other VERY important thing she said (which is totally predictable to us around here, but important) is that she has been/is afraid that my changes are not real, that they were just to keep her around and when she does fully invest herself in the R again, I will just go back to being how I was for the first 10 years of our marriage. She said it's hard to understand how someone can just change like that basically overnight. I pointed out that it was not overnight and that some of my changes started before the initial conversation (bombs). She said she knew that. I also said that I know my job is to keep growing and that my changes were personally motivated and permanent, with or without her.
Also, she also told me how she likes the passion I seem to have for my photography. She smiled a lot when talking about how good I am these days and how she loves seeing me so happy doing what I am doing. I confessed that for most of our marriage I was afraid of being happy with my career because somehow I thought it would make her jealous. We both agreed that was really stupid.
Anyway, like I said, there was a LOT said, and I owe a lot of my courage to even talk to her from you.
That is wonderful news, sounds like a very powerful, important evening. Pay attention to how opening up gave your W the opportunity to be good to you and you to her. Pay attention to how much it matters in terms of building real intimacy. You did a great job :-)
Now, what to do next time? Maybe some faster direct communication would even work better. But, you know you might not have a handle on things right away and might need a bit of processing time. How about, "W, if I seem keyed up, it is because there is something I feel I need to talk to you about, I just need to work through it a bit myself first. So, if I take a little space or seem a little weird, that is what is going on. I just wanted to let you know what is going on and that I have some stuff I want to share fairly soon."
BTW, if you weren't so certain of W's reaction and how you had to avoid it at all costs and keep things bottled up to prevent armageddon on a work day, you might have been able to talk about this much sooner. Fear was driving a lot of your anxiety around the talk. So, maybe next time you can give her the opportunity to prove you wrong sooner
Anyway, this is all great news.
Do I think W has been totally honest? I'd have to say not really, I would be very surprised if there weren't more to come. For instance, why would you and your father want to kill the guy? And, well, the friend excuse... Sure, it could be true. It could also be that she turned out not to be pregnant and just cannot burden you with the fact that she was scared. Who knows, maybe she had outercourse and was scared as it can certainly lead to pregnancy. There are a million scenarios. Certainly, that she really has told you everything is one of them. A break-up meeting that ended with bad somewhat coerced sex is another. A full out PA is another. In a way, though, it doesn't matter.
My message to you is that you need to forgive her everything -- that which she has the strength to tell you now and that which she doesn't.
The way she is talking to you and answering questions is pretty strong confirmation that it is over. It is also pretty strong confirmation that she is willing to work to build trust.
About the intimacy talk and that she is reading books, Passionate Marriage might be one you can read together....
Give yourself a pat on the back. You must feel pretty good about who you are being and how it makes such wonderful differences in your life.
On the intimacy issue front, one other thing that I pointed out to W in response to her saying she's never had affection without sexual advance from me is that over the past few months she HAS gotten that from me. She looked like she had to think about it a second. I told her that I had NO hope of sex in that time but wanted to express my love for her in the way that I hoped to continue to do it even after we resumed having sex. I assured her that while I still had issues to deal with, I WOULD deal with them but some would have to wait until things were a little farther along before WE could address them. She seemed to understand and be encouraged by what she heard AND saw over the past couple months. I think it was around this point that I managed to get in my little kiss...
OT, thanks. I know I need to stop guessing and just be direct. You've been telling me that for awhile now and my W just told me too. I think I get it now.
Quote: Do I think W has been totally honest?
Me neither but I am starting to believe that there MAY not have been a PA. It's not so much what she says it's how she says it and her body language. It is pretty convincing. However, I agree with your next comment...
Quote: My message to you is that you need to forgive her everything -- that which she has the strength to tell you now and that which she doesn't.
Yes, and this has been my stance all along, I've just had some stumbling blocks along the way to doing it. I THOUGHT I had done it but now I know I have a bit more work to do. I think I am pretty much ready to do that for real and then move forward.
Quote: The way she is talking to you and answering questions is pretty strong confirmation that it is over. It is also pretty strong confirmation that she is willing to work to build trust.
I agree. That and the fact that she looked me in the eyes and answered my direct question about whether I can expect full honesty between us from now on. She said yes without hesitation.
Quote: About the intimacy talk and that she is reading books, Passionate Marriage might be one you can read together....
I CAN'T PUT THAT OFF ANYMORE. You've been suggesting that one forever. I really have to get it! I will!
Quote: Give yourself a pat on the back. You must feel pretty good about who you are being and how it makes such wonderful differences in your life.
I do feel pretty good today. I feel like if nothing else, I overcame some pretty big fears and did something that made a huge difference in my life, if not my sitch overall.
I am still moving forward a little guarded but today IS a much better day.
