Cobra: I do respect your opinions. I went back and read through Lil's post and I am glad that it is there.
Reading Wife issues. What I find is if I do not think clearly through the possible outcomes of my actions then I find myself not making a response that is correct and non-inflammatory. By that I mean I do not communicate the intentions or my feelings well. It turns into a retreat on my part to avoid further conflict. Yes, there is a factor of fear involved there and on some level a fear of my W and her response. I do not wish the discussions turn to a full-blown fight. But rather communication of the issue at hand. I do not obsess on possible outcomes but rather how my response can come across as non-accusational and matter of fact.
If one does not push for repair, if I settle for the status quo, how will things get started on the path of getting down to where we need to be to get issues, fears, etc on the table to work on them. Is it your point here that I continue to be dismissed and placed in the background and accept that fate?
Space, I really believe that is a term now used by people to say leave me the hell alone for an indefinite period of time. I want to sit here and not do a thing. I do not want to address the issues at hand and they will magically go away or they will not. If they do not, we then know this M needs to end. I am not buying that argument as a solution. Space, in my terms of our relationship, means just that. Well how is that making our relationship better? How is that addressing the issues? In essence, IMHO, it means cohabitation and separation in the house. For the record, we did space, she found OM. We did space after, and we ignored the issues. She wants space now, and that has been given her, to the point some days we do not see each other or speak to each other except in passing or in relation to the kids being covered on where to go and be picked up. When I express myself, I am made to be the villain. WTH? Case in point, her words this morning after she went ballistic on S7, he was misbehaving but not deserving of her wrath, "This is all your (meaning me) fault. It is my busiest time of the year. You do not understand that. You do not respect that. You start in with all this reading into crap. I have 30 emails a minute and I am supposed to stop and take time and read all the way through yours? I never saw the ILY at the end. I just answer and move on. You put me in a bad mood."
Again for the record, (not being smug) I have rearranged my workday and schedule to accommodate every facet of her work life for last week and then next two. To the point of my productivity at work being compromised. I am willing to run the house for this time, and am doing well at it. For her to say I do not understand is her really saying I have no time for you, just my job.
Maybe you are correct here on the "rubber meeting the road" the leap of faith. It may very well be that I am fearful of the step of the ledge and letting it all go. Maybe it is that fear that creates the conflict in order to have a "sick" semblance of a connection that desperately is grasping at the relationship. Interesting perspective.
As to the her statement about being here. Yes I have heard it and I do not buy it. It is not acceptable, IMO, to take that stance. I know that I am not in control of her taking that stance and again maybe it is me fighting the fact that is all she can find in herself for this M. But to take the martyr role and have ambivalence to the relationship further fuels the fire of emotional distancing. It is similar to that person who is suicidal. The severe all ties with those close to them that will try and stop their decision to commit suicide. They distance themselves. I see this here from her stance that she will not work, discuss, address, or acknowledge anything about the marriage. In essence Marital Suicide. Is the leap of faith supposed to be just that. I am here, my needs are inconsequential, I am willing to allow this to happen? Oooooh that is a mind jogger!
HD: I see the correlation that you are making and I think I addressed some of those points here in my post to Cobra.
As to my tagline and your statement.
Quote: Is it in the feeling of superiority we have when we can tell our friends and family, "I gave and gave and she was cold as ice"?
Not along those lines as much as it is for me to know that I did give everything I had. I exhausted all avenues. And I think if the time came that it was not enough and she decides to pursue S/D than I can have comfort of mind that I did try, that I did not leave a stone unturned. Not for spite or "Ha! I tried" but rather, I tried and it was not enough. The 10 fold in return MAY not come from my Wife. It may come from someone or something in the future. I desire it to come from Mrs. F4W, no doubt about that.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
There are several overwhelming emotions I feel from reading your posts. One of them is the anxiety that I and others have mentioned. Another is fear, but one more is the smothering and engulfment, which obviously come from the anxiety. I think you do need to give her a little time to digest things. Just because you have done this before and she kept getting more and more distant doesn’t mean she is doing so now. In fact, even if she is one the path you want of working on the M, she still needs a certain amount of space. You are smothering her if you are sending repeated emails. She is telling you this yet you don’t want to listen. You are not respecting her reality. Take a look at all these excerpts from your post.
Space, I really believe that is a term now used by people to say leave me the hell alone for an indefinite period of time.
I do not want to address the issues at hand and they will magically go away or they will not.
Is it your point here that I continue to be dismissed and placed in the background and accept that fate?
If they do not, we then know this M needs to end. I am not buying that argument as a solution.
When I express myself, I am made to be the villain.
Yes I have heard it and I do not buy it. It is not acceptable, IMO, to take that stance.
I see this here from her stance that she will not work, discuss, address, or acknowledge anything about the marriage.
Can you feel the tone? They all contain an element of absolutism. They all state reality in your terms and no one else. You say she does this to you, but you do the same. You don’t react well to it so why should she?
You’ve got a lot of anger just under the surface and it is coming out in your communications with her. That pushes her away, which makes you lose control and feel more anxious. So you push harder. She is talking to you but you don’t want to hear her point of view, you are pressing to get her to say what you want her to say. Either stop the control games or go file the papers. You can’t have it both ways.
Again for the record, (not being smug) I have rearranged my workday and schedule to accommodate every facet of her work life for last week and then next two. To the point of my productivity at work being compromised. I am willing to run the house for this time, and am doing well at it. For her to say I do not understand is her really saying I have no time for you, just my job.
Yes you are being smug. And why would you arrange your work schedule? What you state is the very reason not to. You made these changes with the expectation that she would do the same. Now she hasn’t and you are resentful. You did this to test her. Stop putting her into a corner and there will be no more tests to fail. You are creating your own death wish.
I told you before this will not be solved quickly. No one, not even YOU, has the strength of personality to just push things through and have the other person like it. Just what have you done to make yourself more appealing to her? Why would she choose you to get out of the stuck situation she is in? Why should she open herself to you rather than stay in her shell? So far you have just talked a lot of talk, but with only one week’s worth of changes you think she should just come running back? She is hesitant because she knows you better than you know yourself! She correctly anticipated your rising anxiety and your push for control. She knows you have tried one game after another. What is different now other than using a different weapon? Your agenda is the same. When you truly change this and focus ONLY on your self, the pressure will come off her. She will FEEL and SEE the changes in you and slowly start making the choices you want. Then she will start changing herself.
Yup I am pissed. No way around it. But I also can recognize it and find the source of the anger. That source is within me. It originates in me and I know I have to own it and deal with it.
As to repeated emails, they were of the nature of the schedules of our kids. They were not pursuit emails. If I call, she is busy why call. If I email, I hate emails do not email. Yet the nature of this was coverage of our kids. I could not just make a decision because it affected her having to take them, do do otherwise is to not respect her job.
The issue of space is from my experience. Take tehm from what they are worth or how you see them.
As to being smug, the rearranging of my schedule was at her request, and done so b/c she asked it of me. It was made as a point where she claims I have no respect or understanding of her job, yet when I accomodate her wishes it is deemed as a necessity. I do not expect her to rearrange her schedule. Again the issue of kids came from her needing a change due to her job. Maybe not enough information relayed explaining that dynamic.
Cobra, I have made my share of mistakes, I have made my share of missteps, but I do feel that you make to great of an assumption with the statement of I am just talk. I am not the perfect person that can do this I am human. I do take offense to that statement but you are entitled to it.
There is no expectation of running back. I do not see myself stating that or implying that. I am stating that the non-verbal language being communicated was the issue at hand. Act the way you wish, is her statement, I do and get hammered. I do not I get hammered. This is not a push for self-destruction, it is trying not to be caught in the damned if you do and damned if you dont.
My agenda is simple Cobra, to get to the point where we can both honestly address the issues at hand. Simlar to you having your long, drag out sessions with your wife. I know that you are probably more further along in the process and your relationship is a bit more stable, but that is my agenda. To have honest dialog and quit the placating responses only to have one or the other break that response through their actions.
Again, I do not believe that I am ablt to do this alone. I see MC being a very needed thing. Not only for W but, to call me on my behavior.
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I am in complete agreement with your goals and objectives. But the path you are using, to push things through, needs to be chosen carefully to not step backwards and make things worse. My understanding is that you are on the edge of divorce so your situation is precarious.
Cobra, I have made my share of mistakes, I have made my share of missteps, but I do feel that you make to great of an assumption with the statement of I am just talk. I am not the perfect person that can do this I am human. I do take offense to that statement but you are entitled to it.
Ok, I’m sorry I offended you. But my assertion that you are just talk is really based on what you say your wife says. Not me. I don’t think you are really listening to her. There is a time to read through her code to get past the BS. There are other times to take her at face value. It is confusing. But that’s the way it is.
Why is it that you are the one initiating the emails? Let her send them to you. If you divorce, how will you handle the kids? Will you still need to check in with her? I would think not, so do as if you were a single parent, at least as far as scheduling the kids. If she doesn’t rendezvous, then that’s her problem. She can call you to find out where you’ll be. If she gets lonely of feels guilty for missing their games, that’s her problem too.
There is no expectation of running back. I do not see myself stating that or implying that. I am stating that the non-verbal language being communicated was the issue at hand. Act the way you wish, is her statement, I do and get hammered. I do not I get hammered. This is not a push for self-destruction, it is trying not to be caught in the damned if you do and damned if you dont.
F4W, you know this is enmeshment and you giving away your power. I don’t need to tell you that. I am wonder if the sentence “There is no expectation of running back” is what blinds you. This is from your perspective. How do you think she sees your actions? I thought she told you several times already?
To have honest dialog and quit the placating responses only to have one or the other break that response through their actions.
I think your wife could claim this is what she is trying to say as well. You two really have a communication problem and I think it is because each of you are still wearing tinted glasses and seeing your own version of reality. You are still both too caught up in what the other has to do in order to make each of your feel better.
Counseling is a must, IMO. You can only get so much out of a BB. You are on the right track. Just hang in there and relax. You are too intense. Believe me I know. I was exactly the same way. The anxiety can be overpowering. But since she seems willing to keep the status quo for now, you have time to work through this issues. That book by Pia Mellody call “Facing Love Addiction” might help too.
I suspect that you react very similarly to situations where you are backed into a corner or wrongly accused, that is By God, I am not going to take that and fight back. This I am working on. Fighting back in a way that is non-confrontational for the most part. 3 part I statements, focusing on behavior only, etc.
Let e expand a bit on the email situation, I obviously did not communicate well in the post. All schedules were set on Sunday. As Tuesday arrived, she had decided that she did not want to go to S10 game and have to deal with S4 and S7 at the game and the windy day. So she asked if I could just drop them off at her work. I said that I needed to be at field at x time for set up and player warm up. She said that would not do. So I compromised and gave Y time as time. She was still upset. I said I would try and accommodate. So the emails were explanation of how I was going to handle the exchange. Then another situation came up with a meeting and I had to pick up S4 at daycare also. So I emailed her a response to that. The third email was how I resolved the situation of getting S10 home b/c I had a meeting at 7:20 following the game (she was supposed to take him home). In this I do not see the option of sticking to my plans nor just doing it and not keeping her in the loop. The reason for email was the fact she is busy and a call would have interrupted some form of her business day. So I took the approach of sending emails so she could read at her leisure.
I did not make any reference to the fact that she was missing yet another game. S10 was visably disappointed and again I had to explain how busy mom schedule is (basically he reads it as too busy for him, I know that feeling). I believe therein lies some anger and resentment that surfaces.
Yes to the placating, guilty as charged and working on not writing checks I am not willing to cash.
Expectations, Cobra honestly in my heart, there is a difference in perception from what I want as reality and what I perceive as reality. I make the statement trying to stay in the thoughts of no expectations, wherein my reality is I do have expectations. Did that make sense?
As to anxiety, I am not sure yesterday was anxiety as much as frustration and dismissal that created my tension and anger. The anxious moments are more easily controlled when I do not create the issue. There are more intense when I f-up and create issues. Maybe I created the issue, an honestly I did.
How does my wife see my actions? If I could I would think she does not believe a word I say. That all my actions are to create an environment to get my physical pleasures met. She made reference this morning to writing that email about controlling behavior and then creating conflict. Maybe truth, maybe not. It was not my intention.
Frustration is where I am at.
Wife did call a few minutes ago, to request changing again the logistics for kids today. So she can go shopping for an hour for a top for an event. It is not a great big deal, I have practice for S10 and then family dinner for S7 birthday today. Not that I buy totally into the narcissist theory, but I can see that playing a factor here a bit.
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I suspect that you react very similarly to situations where you are backed into a corner or wrongly accused…
Yep, sure do. Problem is that my wife does too, so it is especially important for us to avoid these situations.
I understand the email situation. My point is that she wants you to pursue her as much as you need to pursue. Right now she probably feels “over pursued” and engulfed. If she is like my wife, she needs time to breath, then more time to notice the lack of pursuit. Eventually she feels left out, especially if you and the kids get a life. If she is tied up at wrk, this is really the perfect time for you to do this. For my wife, doing this type of thing helped drive home the importance of family time whereas before she just wanted everything for herself. She never understood how I felt left out when I was working long hours. So leave her a little in the dark.
I believe therein lies some anger and resentment that surfaces.
If by this you mean anger at your parents for doing the same thing to you, then try to hold this in since there is not much your W can do to resolve this issue for you.
Expectations, Cobra honestly in my heart, there is a difference in perception from what I want as reality and what I perceive as reality.
I’ve mentioned this before as the source of disappointment. So perfectionists work like crazy to make the world live up to their fantasy standards. When that fails they are disappointed. The other method is to lower expectations to a more reasonable level, don’t you think?
I make the statement trying to stay in the thoughts of no expectations, wherein my reality is I do have expectations. Did that make sense?
Yes, self deception.
There are more intense when I f-up and create issues. Maybe I created the issue, an honestly I did.
Do I hear another perfectionistic statement? You might want to read through some of Chrome’s threads. I don’t think he is perfectionist per se, but he does fantasize a lot and suffers from low esteem, due to his traumatic childhood trauma. You statement is self deprecating and will only lead to more trouble. Look into the need to be perfect and try to understand that you do not need to prove anything to anyone. Just be true to yourself and do what you know in your heart is right. Then there is not need to prove anything or beat yourself up for failing.
How does my wife see my actions? If I could I would think she does not believe a word I say. That all my actions are to create an environment to get my physical pleasures met. She made reference this morning to writing that email about controlling behavior and then creating conflict. Maybe truth, maybe not. It was not my intention.
Listen to what she says, no matter whether your believe it or not. In fact, you might try mirroring statements back to each other. You’ve made several comments that she sighs in desperation when you push for information. This will let her know you hear her. Her mirroring you will relieve some of your anxiety.
Quote: How does my wife see my actions? If I could I would think she does not believe a word I say.
Patience... she will...
Quote: Expectations, Cobra honestly in my heart, there is a difference in perception from what I want as reality and what I perceive as reality. I make the statement trying to stay in the thoughts of no expectations, wherein my reality is I do have expectations.
Of course you have expectations... I have expectations, Cobra has expectations... everyone does... otherwise... why bother? And no matter how much we intellectually try to convince ourselves otherwise... I would only be a lie because our hearts know differently don't they?
The thing is... they come in their own time... sometimes in leaps and bounds but mostly slowly... and painfully.
Patience will get you there... you don't have to sign ILY to your emails... you don't have to tell her ILY (don't know if you do or not)... you don't have to go in for that GM/GN kiss. She KNOWS you love her! But doesn't it destroy you a little every time you put yourself out there and get nothing back? There will be a time for that; but now is not that time.
And I can tell you from experience... those gestures puts pressure on her. Might even make her feel guilty (it did to me). Then she resents that pressure. Resents you and wants more 'space'. Lose, lose, lose.
Remember; change is inevitable, growth is optional. Never stop growing. And also remember; No situation lasts forever F4W... listen to your gut... it's hard I know because now the tables have flipped on me... I became the chaser... but no more...
This is the woman you love... 'feel' her but don't read her. I know this has been said but Don't read 'into' her statements as if they need to be translated. "This is what she said; but what does she really mean?"
Why is it I am unable to get over the fact of this "coldness" that I sense or see? I thought for sure I was able to just dismiss it and be above it all.
How is it that one can desire so much to repair and make things better and one can be so far from it and not care?
Why does the distance from my wife intrigue and spark desire in me but yet it furthers her (or my perception) need to continue lack of contact?
Why is it I am unable to be celibate for the 2-3 weeks I personally committed to during her busy time of the year?
Just a big ole heaping of "pity pie" here I guess, but by golly I would love a little attention from my wife.
F4W (Signaling the waitress to bring the whole damn pie over!)
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Ok, finished Pity pie and a thought popped into my head. It has to do with Cobra's comment on enmeshing with my wife.
I sthat part of marriage. Not total enmeshing but that bond, that connection that gives you comfort?
I understand that my enmeshment is not at the level of my W enmeshment (if there is any at all) and such enmeshment needs to be of a positive nature. I guess in a long winded way, how do I keep that positive enmeshment going or started again without the so called "smothering" effect?
ideas? comments?
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I think you misunderstand the meaning of enmeshment, which is the same as “fusion” by Schnarch. Read Lil’s thread on differentiation. Enmeshment is NOT being differentiated. You want to get away from this and work toward becoming differentiated. This has nothing to do with bonding. That concept is interdependence or "mutuality" as Schnarch calls it.
