Sorry I missed your post earlier. These people actually expect me to work for my money. The nerve! I appreciate your thoughts about the "escape hatch" and I agree. H uses the fact that we have no plans to D (for relgious reasons) to proceed to do nothing. However, I have lived the life of a miserable M before and a D and there will never be a time that I will use our committment as an excuse to do nothing. However, I am resentful and I am beginning to feel that maybe it is time to take H at his word. Not his word so much maybe as his behavior. His words say that he cares about our M "reduce stress, say no to others more often, talk more, blah..blah...blah." His every day choices and behaviors tell a different story. The story they tell is that he wants us to stay disconnected, that he prefers to have sex on an irregular basis, that affection is not a priority, that I am not a priority. So...maybe it is time to give him what he is asking for - to stay M but be left alone. I don't deny that he could make the decision to D and if he does - it is all him. However, we promised to get counseling if either of us were going that direction so I would hope he would review that plan if he were thinking that way. His mantra is, "you just don't seem to understand that I can be really mad at you and still love you." My question - "love me like what? like a distant relative who you grit your teeth and invite to Christmas dinner?"
Brian,
Thanks. Your thoughts are much appreciated. My H is pulling it together again. He will probably have it together shortly and won't show Mr. Hyde again for a long while. Maybe he will get help. Let't hope so.
Mojo,
Yeah - I think the thing that would make H take notice would be if I just started going out evenings and leaving him with all the kids. It could be a class or the grocery store not necessarily a bar. Then he might notice that he's missing me a bit and that he needs help. I'm actually considering doing a modified version of that. I am considering starting to work out really hard, plan more activities with the kids and simply make myself as scarce as possible.
RE Karen1 On Friday my H thew a giant "man tantrum" HUGS Karen.
Reading the post about "cleared" the counter by throwing everything away made me want to say "hay man, cool it will ya."
I am not willing to live my current pathetic existence where I wait for whatever scraps he throws my way and then do tricks until I get some more. You dog people know what I'm talking about. Been there many times. People and dog wise.
but felt very hollow about Mother's Day on Sunday Well Happy Mothers Day to you from a dad that has been on both sides of feeling lonely / hollow on Mother's Day. (meaning I screwed up on some Mothers Day's, and tried to make up the next year but was criticised for past behaviors or things happened like when Hairdog made his W a dark chocolate cake.)
Again, Happy Mothers Day Karen1.
Sister Mary Karen, who must go to confession due to the sin of resentment I am not Catholic but I suspect your confession here on the SSM forum is received and you have our understanding and generates our wishes for more happiness in your life.
Sorry I missed your post earlier. I thought I was on the Karen sh!t list. Glad to see I'm not though Anyways.. I have lived the life of a miserable M before and a D and there will never be a time that I will use our committment as an excuse to do nothing. That is a great attitude to have. You need to stick with that and hope that your H comes around to seeing the wisdom in that line of thinking. His words say that he cares about our M "reduce stress, say no to others more often, talk more, blah..blah...blah." His every day choices and behaviors tell a different story. The story they tell is that he wants us to stay disconnected, that he prefers to have sex on an irregular basis, that affection is not a priority, that I am not a priority. I used to be a big believer in WORDS. "H says things are good so they must be good." WRONGO! Actions speak louder than words for sure. Actions are what you need to concern yourself with. Words are easy! And often not truthful. The way people behave (I think) tells the real story. "you just don't seem to understand that I can be really mad at you and still love you." My question - "love me like what? This is what I am saying. I have no doubt that he loves you. But where is he showing it? My H and I have really been focusing on this aspect of our M and it has helped a lot. If you can somehow get your point across that you need to see positive actions from him and not just him reminding you "but I love you" during and after the negative actions. Your love bank is in the negative.
ARGH! I hate when people say they are so stressed out over little things. If the garbage piling up bothered him...simple solution ...take it out. If the dishes bothered him well then wash them. Ya know as a family some times you can just have busy days. Or heavy homework days.
And oh my word he is a physchologist and his answer to anger is to throw perfectly good items away in a fit of rage. And why is it that if he keeps complaining he is so darn tired that he keeps training. If he is so tired he could sleep even more during all that time he spends training.
I just don't get it about the tired thing all the time. Then to make you feel bad about not feeling well. Karen I would really consider having another child with this man period. First these outbursts of rage every couple months is not good for any child to have to witness. They learn that they can get older and react the same way they see their parents react. Another thing is naturally when you have a baby you are tired and wore out and need help. He is complaining over one cotton picken day that you may have needed some help. Imagine being sick pregnant or when you have to stay at the hospital a couple days. Or when you are sore and can't do much after birth.
Another thing about these episodes that happen every couple months. I am not a doctor so can't say for sure. But I had a cousin who acted the same way and he was manic depressive.
Sorry if I am negative to much. I am just feeling a little angry for you. I just can't imagine a grown man who is a mental health professional, mind you, acting out in this way.
I think it sounds like you have a good plan. Let him chase you whenever he gets to feeling he has missed you. Work on yourself girlfriend. Try not to get to down.
Karen1, I just read your thread in one sitting and am nearly brought to tears, not only for your sitch, but also because I think you are married to my wife
You appear to be strong, smart, affectionate, loving. Everything a man in his right mind should dream about in a W. Your H has some serious issues. I think the six week deal is a load of BS and he has just created a long-term excuse. Now he doesn't have to think about the next one until June. Clever.
So are you saying that you will stop making advances toward him to see how that goes? I try with my W and I can't make it more than a month (which is why we are a once a month couple.)
I have these subversive thoughts about going three months with out initiating to force the MC conversation, but she seems to know that once a month is just enough to keep me on her string.
From CeMar
Quote: What is it about sleep and LD's? Why the obsession with it? And why is it that HD's RARELY are needing more sleep? I am not sure that I have seen ANY comments on here about HD's needing more sleep, but virtually EVERY LD needs more sleep? WTF? I know my wife never gets enough sleep, and yet I do with 2-3 hours less sleep each night then she does.
How true, how true. Are you sure you aren't married to my wife too!
Guess I should clarify. When I said "training" I meant the kind of training that he does for a living - he is corporate trainer.
As far as the outbursts are concerned I would say about 2-3x/year.
Ordinarily, he is very supportive when I am ill, when I was pregnant last time etc... For some reason this time was too much.
As far as having a child is concerned. We will see. We are opting out of another IUI cycle next month and he doesn't want sex so frankly I'm not terribly worried about my chances of getting pregnant.
Goodguy,
Yes - it seems a lot of us share similar stories. I think many of the LD spouses have problems with depression. In men it just tends to manifest differently. Anger, yelling, acting out like my H did is standard operating procedure for depressed men.
I answered an email from my H and made a suggestion about taking St. Johns Wort (anyone know dosage for this?). He said he saw my point (wellbutrin might be a better choice really).
I also addressed the question of the lingering effects of the whole ordeal. H is going with the "act like it never happened plan." Here is an excerpt:
When I asked you last night if we were ok, that was a sincere question.Are you still feeling upset, unsettled about things between us? Perhaps we should try to talk things out more? What do you think?
I think I am still tired. I am trying to work through things, patiently. I am not mad. The confusion that exists is my own exhaustion / depression / pain. I love you. ___________________________________________________________
I just don't know what to say. That is where things stand. We are communicating better and I hope that will lead to some actual solutions.
Eventually I won't be able to continue being quiet and non-invasive of H's space but right now I feel that it is essential for my wellbeing.
I'm not even going that route - mindreading my H has gotten me in trouble in the past.
If poor communication is one of the biggest problems in your M (and all the associated problems that come from making assumptions), then is withdrawing to a quiet, non-invasive mode the best approach? Although you say you need this for your well being, isn’t that part of the problem? When each of you retreat back to your comfort zone in order to protect your well-being, aren’t you stopping, and possibly backsliding any progress? Isn’t your most productive position out there where it is uncomfortable and scary, isn’t that what is truly essential for your well-being? ___________________________________________________________
Cobra - I don't think we have made much progress. My being quiet isn't the same as going back into my comfort zone. It is the opposite of comfortable for me to refrain from touching H, to refrain from mentioning sex, to refrain from reaching out to him. In fact, it becomes so uncomfortable over time that I reach the point usually to where I HAVE to - ask H about it, try to seduce him, pat him/pet him/touch him etc... Then, he knows that the pressure is on. I want to avoid that loop.
What I am trying to do right now is to allow myself the freedom to feel that my desire is good, that it is independent of H and is pure and that I am good and sexy and ok whether or not he gives a rats @ss. In order to get there I cannot allow myself to be controlled by H doling out sex and affection by whatever minute little measures make him think he's "giving in and giving her what she wants."
I was beyond flabberghasted when H accused me of only wanting him for sex and not caring if we talked or were otherwise intimate. Made me want to hit him. It was such a fused interaction. I need to disengage and disinvest or I probably will hit him. LOL
I haven't just given up ya'll/you all/yous guys. I left H a card this am that talks about our relationship as a movie and suggests that we "rewrite the script." He was touched enough that he actually said thank you for the card and that I must have spent hours looking for just the right wording. Usually he doesn't even acknowledge that kind of gesture.
“What I am trying to do right now is to allow myself the freedom to feel that my desire is good, that it is independent of H and is pure and that I am good and sexy and ok whether or not he gives a rats @ss.” Bravo! Plus, if you stop requiring his validation, then he won’t feel as pressured to give it. Though, I would not hold anything against you for smacking him upside the head if he makes any more “only wanting him for sex” comments. Good luck on the script rewrite.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Quote: It is the opposite of comfortable for me to refrain from touching H, to refrain from mentioning sex, to refrain from reaching out to him. In fact, it becomes so uncomfortable over time that I reach the point usually to where I HAVE to - ask H about it, try to seduce him, pat him/pet him/touch him etc... Then, he knows that the pressure is on. I want to avoid that loop.
Really, you are having exactly the same thoughts I was having 9 mos. ago. Actually, though I did backslide in some ways by doing my "I will not initiate" exercise. I do think it led to some personal growth in other ways, along the lines you are describing above. I mean there is a difference between "not wanting to want" and respecting the fact that your spouse is clearly communicating that they don't want you to exhibit the behaviors that are a manifestation of your feelings of "wanting". For instance, if my H was giving me the "stiff body" response to hugging, I would stop giving hugs. I didn't stop feeling like I wanted to give him a hug, I just stopped engaging in behavior that was clearly unwanted. Where I went wrong was that I stopped clearly communicating that although I wasn't going to invade his "stiff body" hug space, I was still somebody who wanted to hug on a semi-frequent basis and I wasn't going to be happy in a hug-free or low-hug relationship. Of course, when it comes to cuddling, I guess I could farm out my needs in that regard by becoming the world's youngest foster grandmother or something but how many needs/wants can you farm out from your relationship without really causing the relationship to lack value for you? And obviously sex can't be farmed out within the context of a monogamous relationship. Another question would be how to you communicate your need for hugs to your "stiff body" spouse if you don't actually just reach out and attempt a hug. It seems like the only alternative is the ever-dreaded relationship talk.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You raise some very good points here. The relationship does lack a significant amount of value to the extent that physical affection isn't more free flowing. And I can't farm out all of the things I need from that kind of interaction. What will I do about that lack of value? How or in what way will I communicate my wants/desires other than initiation or the "dreaded R talk?" I don't know. I am kind of pulling back and regrouping at this time. When I decide that I am finished the mental break I am taking I am considering not making any physical moves whatsoever but merely asking every time I have the urge for physicality. It would be stilted. It would be weird but I wonder what would happen if my day with H went like this:
Good morning H. Would you come over here and give me a hug and kiss please? Thanks, that was nice.
Back from work now - Hey, H. How was your day? How about a repeat of that hug and kiss? Thanks. How about a longer, wetter version? No? Ok - maybe later.
Making dinner - Hey H, mind if I give you a pat on your cute backside? Great!
Watching tv - Hey H would you mind if I put my hand here on your thigh? If it wouldn't be too much trouble if you could carress me back? Thanks that feels good.
Going to bed - Would you like to have sex? No? Ok. Another time then.
*** H's hypothetical responses here are based on his usual amount of acceptance of physical touch. That would be typical.
How would that feel to me? Like crap. How would it feel to H? Like pressure but my point would definately be made if at regular intervals I request the kind of attention I would like. Then the dreaded R talk wouldn't need to ensue and his negative compared to positive responses about physical attention would be exposed in a way that they aren't when I simply move in for a kiss, a hug, a pat, sex etc.... Then maybe he would have to acknowledge his lack of participation and quit blaming it on everything else.
