Am I Creating a SSM Part III

[Burgbud]

Just wanted to say, why not hold on to a smidge of integrity if you are willing to stay in this M and avoid the sex issue for now.

If H releases the "no kissing" rule and they have fun together in bed then I think it's not an integrity loss. If he won't give up that rule then I'd hope Heather wouldn't continue.

It does seem like there are elements of an ultimatum in this approach but the bright side is those elements wouldn't be visible to H. If he reacts negatively it would just be up to Heather how much more mean-spirited rejection she's willing to take. The answer may well be "none" or "precious little". But if it worked and H gave up his stupid rules, dang...just think how much easier his burden would be, not having to carry around all those tools of mental punishment.

One thing I never fully consciously realized before is that one of H's problems is he doesn't think it's right for Heather to have her mini-A and then end up with a better M. From a certain perspective that's an understandable thought. But the A is over and done, H, when are you going to figure out that a better M is to your own benefit?

Somebody needs to explain "sunk costs" to that boy.

[karen1]

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One thing I never fully consciously realized before is that one of H's problems is he doesn't think it's right for Heather to have her mini-A and then end up with a better M. From a certain perspective that's an understandable thought. But the A is over and done, H, when are you going to figure out that a better M is to your own benefit?
__________________________________________________________


This is a great point. I wonder what would happen if Heather pointed this out to H. "H, who are you punishing here? Me or you?"

Heather, you may have had the A but that doesn't make you solely responsible for the issues in the relationship. I hope you know that. And just because you had the A doesn't mean you have to stick it out if it doesn't get better.

Karen

[MJontheMend]

I don't think the relevant issue is whether or not 2 years is too long for Heather's H to hold on to resentment. I think the relevant issue is that two years should be too long for Heather to go without forgiving herself. Tough though. Either you have to be truly confident that you have done some work and grown and changed enough to never be the person who behaved in that way again or else you just have to let the years slide by until you can finally forgive yourself in the way that we all forgive ourselves eventually for things we did when we were quite young by thinking "I didn't know any better.".

[heatherg]

Just wanted to say, why not hold on to a smidge of integrity if you are willing to stay in this M and avoid the sex issue for now.

Ouch. That hit me where it hurts. Don't worry though, I'm getting tougher I know what you are saying. I also know that my posts paint a pretty grim picture of my M and my H. It's not always so bad, it really isn't. And, now that I am starting to stand up for myself....well, it may be too early to tell, but I swear I see changes already. I'm almost not even believing what I think I'm seeing.

For instance, last night, H and I did not end on very good terms. He said "Whatever, I'll talk to you later". Typically, I could expect to be ignored. But he didn't ignore me. In fact, he called me a little while ago during his layover and we had a very pleasant conversation. At the end, I told him I would see him when he got home tonight and we would decide what, if anything, we wanted to do tonight (go out to eat, etc). I was the first to say I had to go.

I have my days where I really feel like my integrity is being compromised in this R. Maybe it is or maybe that's just my percpetion. Either way, standing on my own two feet has helped my attitude tremendously and I feel optimistic today in spite of the fact that H and I have had some pretty unpleasant conversations while he's been away.

I don't know when I would attempt something like I talked about earlier, coming on to H. But I know I couldn't leave the M behind without trying it.

[chromosphere]

Heather,

I'm going to try to step into Blackfoot's shoes for just a minute, I hope I don't do his point injustice, but I'll try.

What you are describing doing, aggresively initiating sex by grabbing him and having your way with him is not biologically congruent. That is what you might call alpha male behavior and is not likely to produce the response that you want. I'm not in any way saying that women should never be aggressive in a relationship, there is definitely a place for it, when the relationship is on track. You are basically in a situation in which you need to "restart" the intimacy. Think of you and your H as basically strangers from an intimacy perspective. For the most part, during the courting phase, it is the male that initiates most of the intimacy. I guess what I am trying to say is that you might get a very sound rejection, not because your H isn't interested, but because on a primal level it isn't the "way its supposed to be."

I hope that makse sense, and you realize that I am going out a bit on a limb in my analysis. I know I haven't mastered the biological side of R's yet, so please take this with a little more skepticism than you might ordinary advice. I just hope I can give a different perspective for you to think about it.

Chrome

[heatherg]

Well it seems I was overly optimistic about H's phone call this afternoon. I guess he was just calling to see if I would offer to pick him up or change my mind. Because I'm being ignored afterall. I tried to tell him Hi and I patted his shoulder and asked how his flight was and he turned his back to me and said fine and he never said hi or any other single word to me since he's been home.

I'm so sick of this crap.

[blackfoot]

aloha heather.

where to start.

I disagree with nearly every piece of advice given the past few days.

I do agree with koshka, about the labeling of narcicissim being thrown around way too much. Your H is narcisstic. Im narcisstic, Cobra is narcisstic. Your narcisstic. Whooo that was fun. Not very productive though.

So here is what I see. I see a couple-- both of whom have empty love banks. So your wondering what to do about 'the truck'. I think there is more to this. Your trucks age and the affair seem to coincide chronologically. Even if the truck is not some metaphor for your independace, to your H its a symbol of your affair. Its where he focuses a lot of anger. Would you print up a hundred copies of a picture of you and OM making out and leave them all around for him to find?

He has said he is not riding in the truck. Period. Why in the world would you force this on him? Why couldnt you take the other car to work today?
You need to figure out why you have the need to keep escalating and testing his boundaries and creating more drama.




FWIW, I walked away from a whole house of material possesions, and 10 months left on a lease, and then I did it again and again during my dealing with A. If I was your H I would have probably taken your truck out to the desert and blown it up. Im not kidding.

So now his reception from being away is what? pleasant? receptive? How is it giving? Is it making a deposit or taking out another one?

You keep focusing on the length of time this has been going on. Your H keeps focusing on whether you are commited or not. Untill he sees that --thru you actions,not words, he is not going lower his shields. Leaving the house was the most destructive and pitiful attempt at a boundary. Like swiss cheese. soft and full of holes. Nothing productive came from it. More walls rose up from your H. It was in your H's eyes just more proof that you arent commited. This truck issue is going to be more of that. Your insecuritys are full on crashing (and this is one I see in a number of sitches currently. Men want surity and commitment. So they give it... to their detriment. Women dont 'feel' commitment. So they're not gonna give it. They give emotion and want it in return and will happily stick around as long as they are getting it.)

You arent sure that things will ever get better. Your H isnt sure that you are going to stick around, or worse yet, run off and be with another, OM. You both even tell each other you are only there because of the kids. How does this activity make each other feel important?

Other things. Your H is communicating to you without any emotion whatsoever. You are filtering what he says, the rare occasion he speaks. Your translations are incorrect.

Have you made a decision yet? Because I see some of your posts that have no confidance in them. Those comments (negative mental state) and your actions currently are actually destroying the marriage. (as is his) Personally, I think you are committed. You just think it will remove all your power, all of your barganing ability if you admit that. I disagree with your feeling on this.

Cobra.
Im really glad you found schnarchy and that his communication style gets across to you what you need to do. Your doing excellent with it, though I dont think you get why, yet. Its not much different then what Nops was suggesting to you.
I think its a terrible idea for heather. She needs to focus on 'reenmeshing' with her H. There is nobody more differentiated then a person having an affair. Nothing in her current behavior is likely to be found in that other book you like so much.

Chrome. ....

But that statement is BS. While it may be true that some people who have A's don't feel much remorse or pain afterwards, those of us who had our A during a weak emotional period on our lives feel an awful lot of pain during and after the A. True. Only you truly know how much pain you feel from your own guilt or remorse, and only your H truly knows how much pain the A caused in him, but I am willing to bet that your pain, being the consciencous person you are, is at least in the same level as his.

according to Dr. Harley

After having counseled thousands of couples with hundreds of marital conflicts, I am completely convinced that a spouse's unfaithfulness is the most painful experience that can be inflicted in marriage. Those I've counseled who have had the tragic misfortune of having experienced rape, physical abuse, sexual abuse of their children, and infidelity have consistently reported to me that their spouse's unfaithfulness was their very worst experience.

I know women who are struggling with the emotional fallout from rape and sexual abuse decades after it happened. According to the expert, this is worse. So Im gonna have to differ with you on this.

I agree Heather probably wont have good results but strongly initiating sex/kissing, but not having sex is making things worse. The 5 month sexual drought is your choice heather. You are using his bad behavior as an excuse to 'punish' him. The horse whisper Gel would not approve.

So far all of your boundaries are fake and an attempt to force him into some sort of behavior.
How is this working out for you?

If you want things to get better you can do what needs to be done, or you can keep 'being right'.
What needs to be done.

Focus on the good.
Accept.
show appreciation and deliver words of admiration. Sincerely. When appropriate. Often. Not as a form of flattery to get what you want. Im betting he is savvier then that anyways.

Honestly express your pain when he does something that hurts you, (being vulnerable---not groveling. gross. )

WITHOUT using your previous maximizer type behavior. Thank your for this tidbit. You feel crazy when you act that way, because its irrational to act that way. It gets no respect.

burgbud.

We've had this discussion before, but as much as I can relate to H and as much as I've done many of the stupid things he's doing, the truck thing and the kissing thing never fail to astound me. He's made the truck yours and OMs instead of yours and his. H doesn't take back what OM "took"; he gives it away. He lets OM control him to an amazing extent

While you and I may have learned this crucial difference, Heathers H is going to see It as Heather giving it away. Not OM taking it. So only she can give it back in his mind. Yes I agree he needs to 'take it back'. He cant see it though.

Back to the sex issue. You can make yourself available to your H, even subcommunicate that you would like to ML thru various ways. That will work.
Taking a kiss-probably not. Baby step it. ML, missionary position. kiss his chest, nuzzle his face/ kiss his neck/rub cheeks (not ass cheeks. J/K .) Eskimo kiss (nose rubbing).

Jabez. My man. if you keep acting like a girlfriend to women thats what youll end up being.


Aloha.

P.S. heather.
Dont tell me how to parse my metaphors. If you dont like my style, (which is treat everyone the same. just like sh!t.) tell me to stay our of your thread. That is a boundary. Put swiss cheese in front of me and Ill slice it and put it on a cracker.

[blackfoot]

ah I was too late.

Heather, if you can see your way clear to making the needed changes, it is going to take time to get something back from him. I know your LB is empty too.

If you cant, or wont. Move on.
Do what needs to be done. Or say you are unable, or its not worth it.
Your H is not a business problem. He cant be dealt with in the same way you are used to getting things done.

[SweetRedd]

Heather,

Hey GF Since we're throwing out opinions... I have to say I disagree with most of what Blackfoot says. Just one point. If you dig enough in Dr. Harley's website, you'll also find him saying that no forgiving an A becomes abuse at some point. I've posted the link to you in the past. Your H is abusive - period. I just can't stand by and have it labeled as anyting other than that.. a misinterpretation, etc. You've CLEARLY shown you're committed by staying with him through all of the abuse for two years, going to C and continuing to try no matter how punishing he's being. There is NO way to justify your H's behavior. The A was a very short lived EA, with some kissing. Sad, hurtful, yes. But nowhere near the effect of living with an alcholoic that withdraws from his family for years. Have you ever refused to kiss him because he smells like beer (alchohol was clearly his lover in the past)? I think taking a cab home and not greeting you W and kids after being gone for days is a pitiful attempt at setting a boundary myself. At least you offered your H an option to taking a cab home from the airport. What option did he offer you the night you were embarrased and upset that you couldnt sleep in your bed?

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice this week and are on the road to becoming stronger. Don't be ashamed to be a strong, vibrant, smart and loving woman.. ever. You shouldnt have to break your back or spirit to be loved, cherished and accepted by you mate. That's not the way love works. There's a definition somewhere.. patient, kind, .. you get the drift

Trust yourself.

Sheila

[Burgbud]

If I was your H I would have probably taken your truck out to the desert and blown it up. Im not kidding.

Heather kisses a guy and you're gonna blow up her truck? If she'd have slept with him would you burn down the house?

I think Dr. Harley needs to give me a call, because while I admire his work I can't imagine being raped so pleasantly that I'd choose to be raped again rather than having a second unfaithful spouse. And I'd really, really like to talk to the person who told him their spouse's unfaithfulness was more painful than the sexual abuse of their child. That's unfathomable. Right there's your person who needs to have their truck blown up.


So far all of your boundaries are fake and an attempt to force him into some sort of behavior. How is this working out for you?

So far the five months of no sex without kissing seems to be working marginally better than the previous nineteen months with sex on a regular basis. Why is that a false boundary? Heather has said that having sex without kissing followed by H leaving her in the guest bed to go sleep in the marital bed is emotionally painful to her. So she stopped doing it.


Taking a kiss-probably not. Baby step it. ML, missionary position. kiss his chest, nuzzle his face/ kiss his neck/rub cheeks (not ass cheeks. J/K .) Eskimo kiss (nose rubbing).

This is confusing. If she wanted to have sex why would she need to baby step it? H is perfectly happy to have fun, adventurous sex with Heather. What he won't do is ride in her truck, kiss her, or let her sleep in their bed.