Am I Creating a SSM Part III

[heatherg]

Have you been watching any hockey lately? Now that the playoffs have started, hockey is almost a sport.

You're lucky I consider you a friend buster The Red Wings just lost in the first round last night. Sucks.

But at this point I wonder if it's maybe time to put H and his concerns and his issues and his responses on the far back burner for a while and just deal with Heather.

I know my attitude hasn't been the greatest. I do get sooo caught up in all of this. My head reels sometimes. I'm ok. I actually do a lot better than I seem to on the boards I think...I release a lot of my frustrations here. But you're right, I need to give it up for a while.

This cycle repeats itself a few times until they realize that they really need to recover and recuperate *beyond* the point where they feel good again...they need to nurture their injury until it's really healed, then they can go back to worrying about their race.

This is a great analogy. It does describe my cylces pretty well, doesn't it? I've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if I posted it here. I remember when I was pregnant and I wanted to start the lawn mower and mow the lawn. H was at work and I was hormonal and wanted the lawn mowed NOW. I had never mowed the lawn or started a mower before. I called H to ask him what I was supposed to do and he told me. It was a pull cord and I could not pull it hard enough to get it to start. I was so impatient and frustrated, but so determined. I would say to myself "Screw it" and go in the house. I'd sit there for a minute and then go back out and try it again. I did this a few times before I got it started. There are times in life when I want to give up, but I have this perverse side to me that won't let me

So give yourself a break and release him for now.

Thanks for looking out for me. I think I'll take your advice.

Along the lines of recuperating and nurturing yourself, my first suggestion is to give up the power your secrets and failings have over your life.

I'll work on this. Intellectually, I know there are other good people who have made serious mistakes. I need to move past it just as much as H does.

The day I decided I could live with that I noted it for the record in my thread. Do you remember (borrowed from Robert Bly), "I don't believe I'll let you shame me today, W"?

I do remember that statement. I'm glad you've been able to find some forgiveness for yourself....I know that I need to find it too. It's weird that it's so much easier to see that others deserve forgiveness, but somehow I've percieved myself differently.

Update~
This afternoon, I called H and told him that the appraiser called me and wanted to schedule the appraisal for the house and I wanted to know if he still intended to move forward with remodeling plans as we'd discussed. He said no. I said "The decisive way you said that makes me wonder if you've contacted a lawyer". He said he hadn't. I said well you said the M was over right? Are you going to contact a L? He said I don't know, I'm not sure of anything. I said "oh, I see. So you just threatened me with ending the M?" He said "I'm not big on threats." I said "Well, it sounds like a threat to me. Do make sure to let me know ahead of time if you plan to contact a L, would you?" I also told him that we should plan to discuss the direction of the M, maybe tonight. He said he didn't know if he'd feel up to it. I said "Fine, there's no rush. This has been going on for two years so another few days isn't going to hurt."

I was prodding him and it wasn't a very nice conversation. I knew it wasn't a nice conversation and knew I probably shouldn't be saying those things, but I did it anyway.

Tonight, somewhere, I just spontaneously felt and acted normally, in a good mood. I told H I decided to schedule the appraisal on the house anyway because I figure he's gonna stop ignoring me eventually and then we'll have the appraisal and we can get on with it. Surprisingly enough, I would say he is no longer ignoring me. We certainly aren't holding hands or anything, but he's speaking casual sentences to me.

I really do want to get this house remodeled. I think it would do wonders for my mindset. We have great plans, hopefully it all works out. We'd be the first in our neighborhood to update our house to such a great extent. We live in a neighborhood where all the houses were built in the 1950s and we've already done a LOT to it. But we want to add a second story and make some other major changes. It would double the size of the house and the appraisers I talked to aren't very optimistic that we would get our money back out of it. I think we would. We live in Norfolk and since the city is pretty much built out, there are brand new houses going up in older neighborhoods all the time. It's just that ours would be the first in *our* neighborhood. I don't think that's a very big deal, but obviously the appraiser could feel differently and put a value too low for us to be able to get the financing. Unfortunately, the appraisers have to use the values of the surrounding homes as their basis, so if there are no others like the one we are planning to make, it creates more of a subjective situation and we are at the mercy of the appraiser. So, we'll see. But I'd have my own bedroom upstairs with the kids and that would make me so calm, to have my own space. I would no longer want my old room back, I could buy a new king sized bed and have room for the kids in my bed if they wanted and I would feel a sense of calmness that might help ride out the storm. I really hope it goes through.

Thanks to all for listening and advising. I appreciate your thoughts.

[Cobra]

Heather,

It is not about the bed for crying out loud~it is about taking back my RIGHT…. Maybe H would again try to drag me out, maybe he wouldn't. But either way, if I can hold my ground, then I've taken back the right that he never should have had the power to take away from me in the first place….. I tried to respect his needs and look where it got me~do you see how it is impossible to have intimacy with someone whom I believe would be emotioanlly abusive at best if I tried to sleep in my bed?.....

Yeah I see this and understand it. The question what are you going to do about it? I’m not sure further escalation of the power struggle is the answer.

What truly frustrates me is that H cannot see how wrong it is to keep me OUT.

Like you say, he doesn’t see it this way….

It seems you have to truly make someone an object in your mind in order to be able to carry out something like this for so long.

Maybe, but your are speculating. If we could get into his head, I doubt his thought process would sound so crazy. He is operating from his reality.

Key phrase "and your partner does too".

Stop focusing on him. Did you read the comment I made to Fighting4Wife about making a leap of faith? This applies to you too. You do not want to do any more work on the R until he does. He is probably thing the same thing. You are stuck, so unless one of you decides to make yourself vulnerable and take a chance, you will remain stuck. Get hold of your fears of rejection. He’s already rejecting you. How much more can he reject? Except for divorcing, can things get much worse, and will D really be worse?

Take the position that you are committed to this marriage and your H, no matter what he says or does. This will make a difference. You have actually done this, though I’m not sure your realize it. See below.

I would say this is exactly how I feel. Isn't that what draws people to become a couple and have a family?

Yup. So keep your focus on the end and stop fighting over the means.

What threat did I make?

You left the house. Be sure not to confuse whether YOU think you made a threat versus whether HE thinks you made a threat.

I hear ya. What I cannot fathom, and do not want to become, is someone who continually tries to bare their soul to someone who doesn't give a crap.

Because every time I open my mouth about anything pertaining to how I feel about our R, I know there is a 99% chance he will walk away.

Sorry, have to call BS on this one! I think we all want someone with whom we can be intimate and share our deepest secrets. You may not like his response, but you still want to be intimate. This is actually a good example of your enmeshment. You are putting blame on him for how you feel.

Making yourself vulnerable and displaying your feelings and desires is your choice. Whether someone acknowledges your views or not is theirs. Their view should not affect how you feel about yourself and what you want to do (be intimate and vulnerable). You may choose not to be this way with your H anymore, but he has no control over how you feel about his view, right?

I've tried this before in a letter. Since I can't seem to get out everything I want to say in person, I've tried emails and letters. Maybe I will try again. Post it here. Make sure it says everything I need it to say.

Maybe you can help me put those choices into the letter I'm talking about in a way that is not threatening. Up to it?

Not a bad idea. I’m happy to help, though others may be able to offer more valuable input than I.

Here's a theory, something I've been thinking about:
Schnarch wrote that couples can't *not* communicate. Couples come to him saying they can't communicate and he sees plenty of communication. So, I keep saying H won't communicate with me. But maybe that's not true. Maybe he's communicating fine and I just don't want to accept what he's saying.

BINGO!!! That’s what I’m trying to tell you. Mojo’s H is telling her she smothers him. She has plenty of reason why he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Yet he keeps saying it. Now we have an explanation that can help her remove her filters, broaden her view of the interactions in her marriage, to see that what he says could be true. Couldn’t the same be said for you?


Regarding your Update~

….I said "Fine, there's no rush. This has been going on for two years so another few days isn't going to hurt."

Tonight, somewhere, I just spontaneously felt and acted normally, in a good mood. I told H I decided to schedule the appraisal on the house anyway because I figure he's gonna stop ignoring me eventually and then we'll have the appraisal and we can get on with it. Surprisingly enough, I would say he is no longer ignoring me. We certainly aren't holding hands or anything, but he's speaking casual sentences to me.

I really do want to get this house remodeled. I think it would do wonders for my mindset. We have great plans, hopefully it all works out……

In reference to my above comment, do you realize what you’ve said to your H with this series of events? You spoke of the future, a future the includes the TWO of you. He heard you LOUD and CLEAR. You thought that by pushing forward with your decision, he would get upset, that this would be just another stage of the power play.

But instead he warmed up to you, the exact opposite of what you expected, right? Plus you did it in a good mood. I think this is what he wants more than anything. I’m also willing to bet that once you two can lay down arms and have a truly open heart–to-heart talk, you will find he has been feeling the exact same things you have been and he wants just what you want, to get back to the good times. This update says a lot to me. I think you need to think long and hard about it and how you can follow up on this positive opportunity.

Maybe others can give you better ideas than I on how to break through the ice a little more.

[Corri]

Cobra:

You don't have your own thread, so I'll post to you here.

I've been reading your posts. I have to say... God, and I am going on record with this... you have CHANGED, man. And I mean it. I like what I see in you, and given your intelligence level, I actually find you very interesting.... now. As opposed to a months ago when all you were ready to do is 'strike.'

You are 'balancing.' I was going to say 'softening,' but that doesn't seem quite right, for in some way, that might imply an inaccurate label of passivity... I don't see you as passive, where before you WERE... I see you becoming so much more comfortable in your own skin... not taking things as personally, a loosening of the anger, which gives you a more objective perspective...

I am really impressed with you and your changes, at least here. Majorly so. Wamrs my heart, actually. I encourage your path, friend. I don't know if it is making marked difference in your home life, but I cannot imagine how it could not, if you are patient, and stay the course.

Heather, sorry for the high jack. Lose your sense of entitlement. I know you are frustrated... best thing to do when frustrated is to 'let go.' Give up on R stuff for awhile. Take a break from here. Keep a journal and vent there. Staying here too long without a break keeps you emeshed in R thoughts. Go and just 'be' for awhile. Give up your control. There are no 'rights' in life, just 'what is, as it is.' Lose your judgments and your assessments for awhile, just be yourself... and if you don't know who that is, go figure that out for awhile and let go of what your H is or isn't doing.

Take a break.... everyone needs a break.

Corri

[Cobra]

Corri,

Good to hear from ya. Where have you been? Thanks for the compliments. Things are getting better in my sitch. I intend to post an update on my marriage, but it’s long… so much catching up to do, and I need to work more on it. The improvement at home plus reading Schnarch turned the corner for me. Everything started to fall into perspective.

Don’t be such a stranger!

[heatherg]

Our C brought up the concept of “minimizer” and “maximizer.” The maximizer is easy to see, he wears his emotions on his sleeve, is not afraid to express himself, and does so in a effort to exert a certain level of control over situation. This would be someone who shouts, and is very demonstrative, to the point of even spilling over into verbal abuse. This person is the obvious target in counseling for the one controlling the relationship and in need of some “reigning in.”

The minimizer is the opposite. I n counseling, he is very together, appropriate in his answers, very much in control. He allows the maximizer to act out as proof that he, the minimizer is being controlled. The truth is often, but not always, the opposite. Because the minimizer is so reserved, he is withholding judgment, and forcing the minimizer to pull information out of him. The maximizer is actually controlling the minimizer, but in a very covert, almost subconscious way. But it is not subconscious. It is conscious and done out of fear. It is very passive aggressive. It is almost dishonest in a way, and it put the spouse in a VERY difficult situation.

Not speaking, not communicating, withholding emotion is a form of verbal abuse. It can be every bit as destructive as the person who is yelling and screaming. But it is self perpetuating because the person maintains the appearance of propriety. Any challenge to this is extremely difficult because the other person can only resort to maximizing or other “inappropriate” behavior. It is almost a no-win situation for the spouse of the maximizer.

This is an excerpt of one of Cobra's posts on Brian_M's thread. It describes an element of my R with H pretty well.

My H rarely wants to talk about our R. Probably 5 times over the last two years, excluding our handful of visits to MC. In the past, this has driven me pretty close to crazy as I had so many things I wanted to accomplish with comminication....and I resorted to exhibiting "maximizing" or "inappropriate" behavior. I would get so frustrated at his ability to simply choose not to talk and his ability to ignore me if I tried anyway.....I would do just about anything to engage him. Including calling him names, telling him I hated him, etc.
If he did choose to let me talk instead of ignoring me, it felt like his words were meant more to frustrate me, insult me or take me down some other path by arguing against my feelings, arguing the 'rightness' of what I was saying, etc. His words rarely felt to me like a genuine attempt to communicate. He would tell me I was crazy, and of course I was acting crazy so I began to believe him. He told me the reason he wouldn't talk to me was because I didn't know *how* to talk and of course, I was screaming, so I began to believe him.

I started *so* many conversations with the very, very best of intentions....and crashed and burned nearly every single time.

I tried to tell H prior to my A how I was feeling....he didn't care/didn't listen/didn't want to do anything about it/didn't agree with me/etc. I hardly ever walk away from a conversation with H feeling *closer* to him.

This past two years, I have worked very hard to control that "maximizing and inappropriate" behavior. It has been my biggest, probably only, success. It has not really resulted in better or more frequent conversations, but it has allowed me to have more respect for myself because I act according to how I think I should as opposed to *re*acting to H's behavior.

In the past, I always walked away taking the lion's share of guilt and wrong doing after our conversations/arguments because of my inappropriate displays of....desperation. I allowed the spotlight to be on me every single time while he sat back and watched the show. And then subsequently ignored me because of my bad behavior. Nothing was ever accomplished, the topic I had set out to discuss only stayed in the shadow of my inappropriate behavior and the only obvious conclusion at the end of it all was that I was crazy. Only during the last year, have I really grasped the facts about what was going on in the dynamics of our interactions. And now I know that I am not crazy.

And Cobra, you're right. It's a no-win situation for the maximizer. There is no way to coerce a conversation or any other behavior when the other party is not willing. The maximizer needs to find something else to take his/her attention off the situation or it will drive them mad. I know....I've been to the edge. I can't think of a better way to tell someone how indifferent you are toward them or how little they matter to you than to refuse to communicate in such a calm, self-assured way as my H. And to get rip roaring drunk while he was at it, that always added to the effect it had on me.

[Cobra]

Heather,

There is a lot of narcissism involved in minimizer behavior. You might look into some of that too....

[heatherg]

This maximizer, minimizer theory sounds like it could tie into the pursuer, avoider dynamic as well. Although I would agree that I am the pursuer in the R, I've never really gotten the impression that H *wanted* to be pursued. He mostly just wants to avoid, end of story. That's why 'turning the tables' and not pursuing anymore....that doesn't solve anything in my situation because H gets to avoid and never even has to try. It just happens because the pursuit has stopped.

In a typical pursuer, avoider R one expects the avoider to begin pursuing after the the pursuer has backed off. That doesn't happen in my R. And if I, the pursuer, back off hoping that the avoider will 'come around', I'm sadly mistaken.

There is a lot of narcissism involved in minimizer behavior. You might look into some of that too....

I've read a little. I've always sort of dismissed it though because one of the outstanding characteristics is that narcissists are typically the "center of attention" type and H is certainly NOT that, at least not in the social sense....maybe I'm defining the meaning of 'center of attention' too narrowly? He certainly expects his feelings to be the center of attention doesn't he?

[Cobra]

Heather,

I think the definition of narcissism is much broader than that.

[haphazard]

Heather,
Narcissists can be very subtle in the ways they get to be centre of attention. It is not necessary for them to be the centre of everyone's attention, just their own and a select few. A very good book I read is Narcissism by Alexander Lowen which I found hugely insightful. It describes the full spectrum of narcissistic personality types from slighty egotistical, through borderline personality disorder to psychopathic. And it explains in detail the origins of that behaviour and the whys and wherefores etc. One of the insights I gained from reading it is that narcissists come in many different flavours. They seek to be the perfect "something" but that something can be anything from perfect body beautiful to perfect genius, perfect homemaker etc. I had always had the impression that narcissists were supercilious and nasty but that doesn't have to be the case unless someone manages to show up an imperfection in the image they choose to portray. I actually think my H has a narcissistic image of himself as the perfect "nice guy". In narcissism the image is far more important than the reality and the narcissist will do everything to defend it. Because H has the perfect nice guy as his image he overstretches himself and when he can't achieve being nice to everyone he flies into a rage. If he didn't have to work so hard to uphold this nice guy image and go against the reality of what he feels he wouldn't break down quite so spectacularly when he can no longer sustain it. A person without this narcissistic image can more easily say no and therefore not have to breakdown into a rage when the stress becomes too much. But this is just one example, like I say there are probably as many images as there are people.

If you think of the image the narcissist portrays as a kind of fortress that they have built around their inner vulnerable selves then you can easily see why they defend the image at all costs.

BTW, I got the book to help me prove to myself that H was narcissistic and discovered a lot about my own narcissism along the way . It has made it easier to see where I am being narcissistic and to try to tackle that. I stop dead in my tracks sometimes and think, why am I saying that I'm only saying it to make myself look good.

I really do think from everything I've read in your posts that your H is very narcissistic. I think you would do well to get hold of this book and read it.

Fran

[koshka]

Heather,

I think you filled a whole thread while I was not around, but I found you.

All of us have some bit of narcissism (and paranoia, passive-agggressiveness, and everything else) in us. All of these things are on a continuum. H has a drinking problem, that seems clear, but it can do your efforts more harm than good if you try to label him. At the very least, please be careful that you label only his behavior, not himself. There's a real danger in thinking of people according to the label(s) that we give them. My T told me once that labels are for insurance companies.

Happy Mother's Day!

Joe