Am I Creating a SSM Part III

[Cobra]

Heather,

When I read your update the thing that stuck out fro me was the shame you have regarding your sleeping arrangements.

The short version is that I am very sensitive to others knowing where I sleep....the fact that I don't sleep in my own bed is like a personal failure to me. It represents the fact that I cheated on my H and I have yet to be 'forgiven'.

What exactly can you H do about this statement? Say he never sleeps with you again. How does that make you a failure and how is that consistent with the differentiation lessons you are reading in Schnarch? Lots of couples do not sleep together (my W and I don’t – she says I snore). That should not affect your self esteem.

I know you do not wish to make this public, but you are allowing your shame to hold you hostage. Rather than hem and haw around what to say, I think you need to come clean with others on what is going on. I don’t mean that you should go around advertising your sleeping in separate beds, but I wouldn’t make efforts to cover it up either. If this disclosure would offend your H, them let him do something about it (and BTW, this is definitely something you need to discuss in counseling). So stop rescuing your H’s public image. If he wants to tarnish it, then let him.

That means I think you should have slept in your separate bed and told your sister-in-law straight up what is going on. There can be no secrets (does she know about your affair?) as you work through your problems.

Another thought… First let me say that I think your H is still bent on revenge. I think he is reacting out of hurt and anger. You seem to have a hard time letting go of anger too, so by inference, I suspect he is just the same. (But that is why I think you two have a chance if you can get past this anger and the huge egos.)

Going along with the idea of revenge, I recall you mentioned that your H has talked to a lawyer who advised him to stay in the house, right? This sounds like the mindset of someone gearing up for a custody fight. If so, I don’t think he will not do anything to step out of line, but just let you rack up the mistakes. I think your leaving the house may not have been the best course of action. You do need to stand up to him, but not by running away. Remember his abandonment fears? I think confrontation needs to be direct, not passive-aggressive.

I headed to a hotel, where he called me and asked me "So, you're actually SERIOUS? You're just going to throw the M away?"

I see him saying here that he does not want to throw away the marriage, but thinks you are still in the mind set to do so. You think he wants to throw it away by his distancing. You both want the upper hand on being the martyr.

I basically just told him that is not what I intended and if that's the way he felt, it was out of my hands. I said "What will be, will be because it doesn't seem to matter what I do anyway".

See…. More positioning over who is the victim….

I told him that if he felt so strongly about it, then he could always let me sleep in my own bed. He said "I'm not ready yet, especially with you acting like this..." I said "Ok, well it's freezing out here, so let me get checked in...".

Here too… Hard to negotiate from a position of strength from a phone in the cold night at a hotel.

Last night I remembered my posts with HP where we talked about how discussions make us vulnerable and I told myself I was going to open myself up about this with H, and try to invite him to tell me his feelings. He shut out the light in the kitchen last night to head to his room to watch a movie, I was already settled in on the couch. The room was dark and as he passed I said "H?" He turned around and said "What?" I said "I feel sad that you were doubtful about my wherabouts and my intentions last night. I just want you to know that my actions were not personal against either you or the R, I just did what I felt like I needed to do." He said "I don't know what to tell ya, this is not a R where you can just leave for a night". I said "I am not trying to change your feelings on the issue, I just wanted to tell you how I feel". He turned around and I said, not quite as nice, "Thanks for listening" and he walked down to his bedroom and shut the door.

I see him as a hurt little boy. In other cases where the W has detached and walks away, the advice is often given to the H to not walk off, that the W really wants the H to pursue her and by pressing the issue, show her how much he cares. She may throw a tantrum at first, in order to vent and express her pain, all to get even more empathy from the H, but eventually she will settle down and “allow” him to comfort her.

I see the same type of thing here, except with a reversal of roles. When he walked off you just let him go. I think he REALLY wants to see that you are fighting for him. I think he is so insecure he wants you to press the issue. This is why Stig and I recommended the groveling apology. It is to make him feel wanted. I know you’ve said you’ve done this, but groveling right after admission will do no good. There is just too much anger and hurt for groveling to overcome at that moment. Now, two years later, if might play better.

Had you pressed the discussion and REALLY made yourself vulnerable, the outcome might have been different.

I just want you to know that my actions were not personal against either you or the R, I just did what I felt like I needed to do.

This does not sound like vulnerability to me, but more like justification.

I said "I am not trying to change your feelings on the issue, I just wanted to tell you how I feel".

How does this make him feel better? You’ve told him that you did what you wanted to do, and to relieve your sense of guilt, you’re telling him how you feel. Not very comforting from his perspective. Showing vulnerability would be something like:

“I am scared of losing you and this marriage. I left the house out of fear of creating a fight and not knowing what else to do. I have tried everything I know but you have shut me down each time. I feel like I am without a home and without a family.

You have no idea how devastated and hurt I am at not being able to sleep in our bed for so long. You have done everything in your power to punish and hurt me, and you have succeeded. What more do you want? Does your anger and sense of vengeance know no limits? Are you so consumed with hate that you can never get past this? What do you want from me?”

I am thinking you need to turn things around on him to a certain extent. Mothering and comforting him has not worked. He does not have enough self esteem and self respect to move forward and reach out to you. So bringing out the “stick,” putting on a stronger, more confident front may be needed. Both you and he will eventually need to confront the fact that he is acting in an abusive manner. Not doing so is another aspect of enabling his behavior. Call him out as you see him.

So use two different strategies together, much as GEL did with her H. Set the firm boundaries and limits. Call your H out on his abusiveness. Do not deny or hide his abuse from others. Show your true, deepest vulnerabilities, express what you really want. Do NOTHING to run, back off, leave or other wise create an impression of abandoning the marriage. Ask him what he wants you to do, then do it if you haven’t already. Tell him to grow up and act like a MAN to rescue the family. Tell him to get off his pity pot and stop looking for his mother to come make it all better. Lastly, tell him to write this all down to show his lawyer. If not, you’ll write it down for him. That might get him to grow up.

[Lillieperl]

heather, I have to say that while I was typing out the "differentiation.non-differentiation" thread, I thought of you A LOT. Please read it carefully. I see you and your H all over it.

[heatherg]

Say he never sleeps with you again. How does that make you a failure

It makes the M a failure. And I try to think of ways to make the M not a failure, but I can't change it.

Lots of couples do not sleep together (my W and I don’t – she says I snore). That should not affect your self esteem.

Come on Cobra. I am fully aware that many couples CHOOSE not to sleep together. My parents never slept together a day in my life. My Dad was always on the couch because, he too, snored. But you know what? There is a difference here. No one tried to control where one or the other slept. If my Dad wanted to sleep in the bed, my Mom didn't pull out all the stops so that he couldn't. Please don't insult me by making comparisons on my R that just don't compare. It affects my self-esteem because there are certain things that I define success by. If I change the majority of those benchmarks, then all of a sudden my definition of success *FEELS* more like failure.

how is that consistent with the differentiation lessons you are reading in Schnarch?

Like I said before, I completely agree with the value of learning differentiation (Lil, I read that list and I see many of those behaviors in my past self and some still in the present self) and self-soothing. But if one has to practice self soothing every single day, in major ways, and doesn't feel like their SO shares their concerns in life or values them in any important way, then differentiation becomes a way of life and can easily become just another wall where you say to yourself "Go ahead, act like that. You can't affect me." Well great. You've taken away your partner's power to affect you, bu are you happier???

I don’t mean that you should go around advertising your sleeping in separate beds, but I wouldn’t make efforts to cover it up either.

I don't cover it up. SIL knows we are in separate beds. I still find it extremely demeaning. And that is because my choices have been taken away from me more than anything. It's because I know what H's intentions are, otherwise he would just sleep somewhere else. The way he is going about this says SO much. It's not just about sleeping in separate beds Cobra. It's about him disrespecting me and refusing to allow me to have any choices. Whenever I've tried to make my situation better (cleaning the stuff out of the room I'm sleeping in or putting a door on the room) H has ignored me, accused me, etc-what does that indicate to you? It indicates to me that it is a punishment, a sentence. Can you not see that? Now, we can talk about differentiation and say that I "let" my H make me feel that way. Well, okay. When I cut myself I "let" myself bleed too. Differentiation can ony take you so far in a R like mine. I'm not saying I've even begun to scratch the surface of learning it, but I will not fool myself into thinking that I can solve all of my problems if I could just take responsibility for how I feel.


That means I think you should have slept in your separate bed and told your sister-in-law straight up what is going on.

And what would that accomplish Cobra? How does that stand up for ME?

I think your leaving the house may not have been the best course of action. You do need to stand up to him, but not by running away.

I didn't run. I had hours to decide. I made a conscious decision that it was the best thing for ME. And, as far as a L goes, I was only gone an hour and a half due to the circumstances I posted about, but I see your point. It is well noted for next time. Because at the rate we're going, there will be a next time in one way or another.

You say I do need to stand up to him. But you also say I should have just slept in my separate bed. So how do I stand up to him Cobra? How is going home and sleeping in the guest room, just like always, standing up for MY feelings?

Remember his abandonment fears? I think confrontation needs to be direct, not passive-aggressive.


I'm seriously getting to the point where I don't give a dang if H is afraid of my blowdryer. I can feel myself caring less and less every day. Leaving was about ME, not about him. It was about standing up for my integrity. It is one thing for him to humiliate me at home, but when others are in my home, it becomes more public. I will not be humiliated in front of other people. It was about DOING something when I feel like there's nothing I can do.

H said: "So, you're actually SERIOUS? You're just going to throw the M away?"
Cobra said: I see him saying here that he does not want to throw away the marriage, but thinks you are still in the mind set to do so.

What H was saying is "If you do this, the M is over". That is a threat. And certainly, if I would have said that to him, you'd have called me out on it. Oh, and by the way, I did it. So, does that mean the M is over now? Should I ask him? Where is his follow through, is he seeing a lawyer? Let me tell you the answer~NO. Because it was a threat, an attempt to control my actions. Nothing more.

You both want the upper hand on being the martyr.

No, I don't! I want to move on. I am a martyr because I'm still here, in this R, when I probably shouldn't be. I will continue to be a martyr until he either starts respecting me or I decide to leave. I am a martyr, but that doesn't mean I *want* to be one or that I somehow like this crap.

This does not sound like vulnerability to me, but more like justification.

It felt like vulnerability to me. You have to realize that to even think for a second that H is going to give a crap about what I have to say, THAT is vulnerability. The same way you don't walk up to a stranger and start spilling your guts, when you're trying to build trust and intimacy you can't expect someone to just lay it all out there, particularly if you have walked away, laughed and demeaned them in the past. Human beings are smart, right? We don't put our whole hand on the burner if we think it might be hot....we stick our finger out. And if we get burned, it reinforces the idea that we should quit putting our finger out. I am still willing to put my finger out, but I am *NOT* willing to just dive right in. And look at H's reaction to me. He turned around, walked away and shut his/our bedroom door. What does that say to me? That I should bare more of myself next time???

I am thinking you need to turn things around on him to a certain extent.

If he has such deep meaning and reasons for the things he does, why do I need to turn anything around on him? You seriously confuse me. You defend him all the way through this post, explaining his position, and then all of a sudden tell me I've been mothering him and need to turn things around on him.

Set the firm boundaries and limits. Call your H out on his abusiveness.

How do you make a boundary on such horrible disrespect, for instance, as someone walking away from you when you are trying to talk to them? You can't control someone's abusive behavior by making a boundary Cobra. You cannot make boundaries with someone who won't respect them. That's the conundrum with abuse. If the abuser respected your bondaries and limits, it wouldn't be abuse!!

Forgive my negativity. I am at a place in this R where I feel helpless and I'm not sure I even care at this point.

[LustForLife]

You can't control someone's abusive behavior by making a boundary Cobra. You cannot make boundaries with someone who won't respect them. That's the conundrum with abuse. If the abuser respected your bondaries and limits, it wouldn't be abuse!!

That's why differentiation is ultimately about you respecting YOURSELF and by doing so, the other person in turn, respects you more in the long run.
I may be sounding harsh here, but I really am not surprised at all that your H shows so little respect for you. You do not respect yourself.
I think Lil may have been on to something with her theory that your H will push and push until you finally leave. Doesn't want the world to think he is the bad guy.
So it may ultimately be a choice for you. Get out of the R/M and "be the bad guy" for finally calling an end to this BS. OR, continue to live in a M that is clearly killing your spirit more and more every day.
You sound like sh!t, if I can be blunt. Totally frustrated and angry. Don't blame you a bit, but pushing your H to change is NOT the answer.
You need to change. For your own sanity at this point.
I'm not saying run to D court, but can you honestly say you can live in this environment long-term?
Rattle the cage and all that stuff.

[MJontheMend]

Trust me I am not the world's authority on boundaries, but let me share something I've learned since I've been struggling to change my identity from SuperWimp. The semi-miraculous thing that I've found to be true is that in a relationship with someone who knows you as well as a spouse, it really even isn't necessary to figure out what to "do" or "say" anything in order to set a boundary. When you are rock solid in your own belief that "you will not stay in a marriage in which your H kicks you out of the marital bed" your H will sense it and your actions and words will naturally reflect your conviction and the ball will be in his court and he will be thrust into the crucible and will have to make his choice.

[Cobra]

Heather,

]It makes the M a failure. And I try to think of ways to make the M not a failure, but I can't change it.

Stop trying to own what you cannot. This is no win.

It affects my self-esteem because there are certain things that I define success by. If I change the majority of those benchmarks, then all of a sudden my definition of success *FEELS* more like failure.

I agree with this in principal, but your goal is way too high in this case and the lack of progress is depressing you. If you could save the marriage, have the intimacy and the sex you want but the compromise would be that you couldn’t sleep together, would you take it? If so, then is sleeping together the real objective or is it the relationship?

But if one has to practice self soothing every single day, in major ways, and doesn't feel like their SO shares their concerns in life or values them in any important way, then differentiation becomes a way of life and can easily become just another wall where you say to yourself "Go ahead, act like that. You can't affect me." Well great. You've taken away your partner's power to affect you, bu are you happier???

The simple answer to this is an EMPHATIC YES!!! Once you learn to self sooth and your partner does too, then need to do so lessens. Just like karate. You are learning to defend yourself, and certain kicks are powerful enough to send someone to the hospital. But do you go around kicking people to feel powerful and boost your confidence? Of course not. Confidence and security come from the knowledge that you CAN exert power if you need to. Another person can be in your face, pushing for a fight, but knowing you can take him out anytime gives you a sense of calmness. It is like you can detach and see that person as a puppet on a string, flailing about, but it doesn’t bother you or scare you. But does that mean you can’t feel even MORE connected to them than if you were emotionally wrapped up in their “dance?” You are still confusing enmeshment with love. Keep reading Schnarch.

I don’t mean that you should go around advertising your sleeping in separate beds, but I wouldn’t make efforts to cover it up either.

I still find it extremely demeaning. And that is because my choices have been taken away from me more than anything. ….. It's about him disrespecting me and refusing to allow me to have any choices. …..H has ignored me, accused me, etc-what does that indicate to you? It indicates to me that it is a punishment, a sentence. Can you not see that?

This is good stuff Heather. But I don’t think you see what you are saying. To me this talks of a need to be respected as a person, to be recognized, acknowledged….. TO FEEL INCLUDED. Your past seems to explain this, especially if you were betrayed by your own friends. But ultimately your self respect has to come from you, not him. You know this right? So the “disrespect” he shows you is pushing your “lack of respect for yourself hot button.” See?

I'm not saying I've even begun to scratch the surface of learning it, but I will not fool myself into thinking that I can solve all of my problems if I could just take responsibility for how I feel.

True to an extent. Because you care for him, he will always impact how you feel. That is human nature. But even though you will always feel hurt if he is mean to you, you do not have to internalize it.

And what would that accomplish Cobra? How does that stand up for ME?

Yes.

You say I do need to stand up to him. But you also say I should have just slept in my separate bed. So how do I stand up to him Cobra? How is going home and sleeping in the guest room, just like always, standing up for MY feelings?

Don’t get me wrong when I say stand up to him. I do not mean for you to force any kind of physical confrontation that could lead to violence. But there is plenty you can do short of that. He may have physical power over you and he might be able to physically force you to do or not do something. But you don’t have to like it and you don’t have to keep putting up with it. The first thing to do is to tell him how you feel. If he FORCES you to sleep else where, keeping telling him that you does so because he is stronger and can bully you around. Tell him to his face (IF you think it is safe to do so) that you have to accept his power but YOU DON’T HAVE TO LIKE IT AND YOU DON’T LIKE IT.

What H was saying is "If you do this, the M is over". That is a threat. And certainly, if I would have said that to him, you'd have called me out on it. Oh, and by the way, I did it. So, does that mean the M is over now? Should I ask him? Where is his follow through, is he seeing a lawyer? Let me tell you the answer~NO. Because it was a threat, an attempt to control my actions. Nothing more.

Yes, he made a hollow threat and so did you. Neither of you gained anything from it. I would call him out on this too if he were here.

It felt like vulnerability to me. You have to realize that to even think for a second that H is going to give a crap about what I have to say, THAT is vulnerability.

This doesn’t make sense. How do his thoughts make you vulnerable? Also, I understand it may have felt vulnerable to you, and compared to how you have been in the past, it felt vulnerable. But get something straight – Both you and your H are dysfunctional. You know that. You both need to change to healthier people. You know that too. That means changing into someone that you cannot fathom is a scary process. But that is what this board is for, the books, the counselor. You have to put a certain amount of faith in the advice you receive because there is no other way for you to know where you are going.

The same way you don't walk up to a stranger and start spilling your guts, when you're trying to build trust and intimacy you can't expect someone to just lay it all out there, particularly if you have walked away, laughed and demeaned them in the past. Human beings are smart, right? We don't put our whole hand on the burner if we think it might be hot....we stick our finger out. And if we get burned, it reinforces the idea that we should quit putting our finger out. I am still willing to put my finger out, but I am *NOT* willing to just dive right in. And look at H's reaction to me. He turned around, walked away and shut his/our bedroom door. What does that say to me? That I should bare more of myself next time???

The short answer is yes. Wouldn’t you just love to hear him lay it all out on the line, to admit to his fears and confess his love for you, how much you mean to him? If her were posting here, I’d say the same to him. But he is not so I can only advise you. You must bare yourself, look past the rejections (which are nothing more than signs of immaturity and anger) and hold to the course. Keep every thing in the open. Bet honest in what you really want, and honest in how you feel when he hurts you. It is OK to feel the hurt, just don’t let it control you. Understand that you are hurting because he is so damaged he CANNOT help you.

If he has such deep meaning and reasons for the things he does, why do I need to turn anything around on him? You seriously confuse me. You defend him all the way through this post, explaining his position, and then all of a sudden tell me I've been mothering him and need to turn things around on him.

What I mean here is that there is a time to show your vulnerabilities, your soft side, to turn the other cheek. Then there is the time to stand up, say I’ve given you everything you want, now be a man and take your own responsibility. This is the rattle the cage phase. This stage is meant to pressure the other person to move out of their comfort zone.

So far people have advised you to comfort him, show him that you can offer the love and security he really wants. If he does not take it, then his fears are so great he cannot even reach out his hand. Rattling the cage is meant to force him to take that step. He will have to confront a choice – take the love and all the changes he claims he wants from you or go his own way. The decision is not that difficult if the two choices are CLEAR.

So far, I am not sure you have done your part to make these choices clear. For him to choose you now means accepting your anger, your need for revenge, your walls and defenses. It is too scary for him to take all this on the promise that you will improve more in the future. So he prefers to stay in his cave. Make the choices you offer him so compelling the any other man would jump at the chance. That is why you need to focus on you – to make yourself the best prize possible. Do you understand?

How do you make a boundary on such horrible disrespect, for instance, as someone walking away from you when you are trying to talk to them?

This may seem disrespectful, but it is also his choice. He doesn’t have to agree to speak with you. Remember, he always has two or more choices. Because he does not choose the way you want means either 1) he is irrational (in which case all is lost and you need to check him into the looney farm), 2) he does not/can not understand the choices you offer, or 3) the choices offered are not enticing.

Forgive my negativity. I am at a place in this R where I feel helpless and I'm not sure I even care at this point.

If you truly didn’t care you wouldn’t feel negative or helpless.

[Burgbud]

Hey, Heather! Have you been watching any hockey lately? Now that the playoffs have started, hockey is almost a sport.

I agree with a lot of the things Cobra has said. I think you give H a lot of power, I think he abuses that power, and I think he gets scared when you claim some of that power back. But at this point I wonder if it's maybe time to put H and his concerns and his issues and his responses on the far back burner for a while and just deal with Heather. It's pretty safe to assume that H isn't going anywhere, so this M doesn't have to be saved *right now*. It seems like a helluva good time though, Heather, to really concentrate on saving yourself. What I've noticed is that when you get a little peace in your life you tend to start feeling optimistic and you want something to work on, something to try to improve your M. Then when (as has generally been the case) your efforts go unrewarded you start to feel down and hopeless again. But you're not a down and hopeless person, so before very long you're feeling better and you take another shot. It makes me think of a marathon runner who sprains their ankle. They rest and get treatment and pretty soon their ankle feels good so they go out and run ten miles. When they're done the ankle is the size of a volleyball and they have to recuperate again. This cycle repeats itself a few times until they realize that they really need to recover and recuperate *beyond* the point where they feel good again...they need to nurture their injury until it's really healed, then they can go back to worrying about their race.

It's just an analogy, the track isn't going out of its way to trip them up, but you get the point.

So give yourself a break and release him for now. There are a lot of good ideas and strategies and techniques you could employ to bring H around but I'm not convinced you have the energy or mindset to go down that path at the moment. And I don't think you have to because your M is not at immediate risk.

Along the lines of recuperating and nurturing yourself, my first suggestion is to give up the power your secrets and failings have over your life. This is coming from personal experience because W has accused me of several fairly horrible abuses. For a long time that's how she kept me in line. But being who I am I couldn't stand being controlled for *too* long, so eventually I gave it up. She might tell people terrible things about me. Those people might believe her without listening to my side. Those people might not like me because of it. So be it. The day I decided I could live with that I noted it for the record in my thread. Do you remember (borrowed from Robert Bly), "I don't believe I'll let you shame me today, W"? My life hasn't been great since I made that decision, but it's been better.

Think about somebody you respect and admire at work. Someone who seems like they really have it all together. Someone who gives others the same impression you'd like to give. If you found out that person had been divorced or was going thru a divorce or had cheated on their spouse or had a spouse who cheated on them, would that change your opinion of them all of a sudden? Or might you think, "That person has really done well with all the crap they've gone thru." That's what almost everybody will think about you. And if they don't then f*ck 'em; they can die tied down to an anthill or they can become President of the United States for all I care. But...you've been awfully honest about yourself on this board, scathingly so sometimes, and I've yet to see anybody decide that you suck so much they don't want to talk to you any more. And if they do then f'em, anthills, Presidents, etc.

So take back your power and give up your shame. Let people find out about you what they will. If you kissed a guy outside your M, then you did. If you're married to a dumba$$, then you are (but H may not be hopeless, either). If you sleep in separate bedrooms, then you do. You don't have to broadcast anything but don't give this stuff any power over you. If it gets out, you'll either keep all your friends or the friendships you have left will be stronger. If you have to, say to yourself, "I'm Heather and I suck but I'm okay."

Just don't forget the "I'm okay" bit. You're actually much better than that but it's a start.

[heatherg]

If you could save the marriage, have the intimacy and the sex you want but the compromise would be that you couldn’t sleep together, would you take it?

This is impossible. Because true intimacy cannot be had with a partner who does something like refuse to let me sleep in my bed. It is mutually exclusive. It is not about the bed for crying out loud~it is about taking back my RIGHT. H also has the RIGHT not to sleep in the bed. That is an important distinction and one that makes going back to my own bed more and more appealing every day. Maybe H would again try to drag me out, maybe he wouldn't. But either way, if I can hold my ground, then I've taken back the right that he never should have had the power to take away from me in the first place. I let him because I felt it was warranted. But not forever! I tried to respect his needs and look where it got me~do you see how it is impossible to have intimacy with someone whom I believe would be emotioanlly abusive at best if I tried to sleep in my bed? There is no intimacy to be had in a relationship like this.

your goal is way too high in this case and the lack of progress is depressing you.

Probably so. Again though, if I was in my bed and H was sleeping in the guest room, I would be better able to see that this was his decision that I just needed to be patient on. What truly frustrates me is that H cannot see how wrong it is to keep me OUT. It seems you have to truly make someone an object in your mind in order to be able to carry out something like this for so long.

Once you learn to self sooth and your partner does too, then need to do so lessens.

Key phrase "and your partner does too".

need to be respected as a person, to be recognized, acknowledged….. TO FEEL INCLUDED

I would say this is exactly how I feel. Isn't that what draws people to become a couple and have a family?

Yes, he made a hollow threat and so did you.

What threat did I make?

That means changing into someone that you cannot fathom is a scary process.

I hear ya. What I cannot fathom, and do not want to become, is someone who continually tries to bare their soul to someone who doesn't give a crap.

This doesn’t make sense. How do his thoughts make you vulnerable?

Because every time I open my mouth about anything pertaining to how I feel about our R, I know there is a 99% chance he will walk away.

Wouldn’t you just love to hear him lay it all out on the line, to admit to his fears and confess his love for you, how much you mean to him?

I've tried this before in a letter. Since I can't seem to get out everything I want to say in person, I've tried emails and letters. Maybe I will try again. Post it here. Make sure it says everything I need it to say.

He will have to confront a choice – take the love and all the changes he claims he wants from you or go his own way. The decision is not that difficult if the two choices are CLEAR.

Maybe you can help me put those choices into the letter I'm talking about in a way that is not threatening. Up to it?

This may seem disrespectful, but it is also his choice. He doesn’t have to agree to speak with you.

Of course he has a choice. So do two people who are dating. And if one person acted the way H acts when I try to speak to him, would the other person keep calling? Probably not, because it may be his choice, but it IS disrespectful. Only crazy people like me put up with that kind of disrespect. Normal people say "fine, see ya dude".

Here's a theory, something I've been thinking about:
Schnarch wrote that couples can't *not* communicate. Couples come to him saying they can't communicate and he sees plenty of communication. So, I keep saying H won't communicate with me. But maybe that's not true. Maybe he's communicating fine and I just don't want to accept what he's saying. I'm going to try to journal a little about that.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I've been meaning to reply, but in the meantime, take a look at Fighting4Wife's thread. You two both seem to be entangled in a power fight. You are both at similar stages of enmeshment, trying to understand how to differentiate, how to hold onto yourself. Maybe reading his thread will help you see yourself in some ways. Can't hurt.

[haphazard]

The simple answer to this is an EMPHATIC YES!!! Once you learn to self sooth and your partner does too, then need to do so lessens. Just like karate. You are learning to defend yourself, and certain kicks are powerful enough to send someone to the hospital. But do you go around kicking people to feel powerful and boost your confidence? Of course not. Confidence and security come from the knowledge that you CAN exert power if you need to. Another person can be in your face, pushing for a fight, but knowing you can take him out anytime gives you a sense of calmness.

This is really important Heather keep thinking about it.

In my first R with long-term BF there came a point towards the end of the R when we were rowing and he picked up a knife and held it in a threatening manner toward me. I don't know where it came from but I remained completely calm and looked him straight in the eye with a look that said "I'm prepared to die but if you kill me with that knife then you will have lost this fight". He put the knife down and burst into tears. I had not moved a muscle or said a word.

Work on you Heather, and you will develop the inner strength not to have to move a muscle or say a word and he will know your intent. He will know that you are not to be messed with.

Fran