-- I know better than WAS does what WAS wants/needs. No, you really don't. That is why your WAS is pushing you away. Don't be arrogant.
-- I am a better person morally than WAS. No, you aren't. You may not have had an A but you have been the source of great pain for another person for a long time, you have violated your vows to be a loving supportive partner in many ways for a long time.
-- I have perfect insight into the "crazy" behavior of WAS Your WAS's behavior probably is probably based on pretty rational motives. MLCers are in *crisis* for a reason. They are dissatisfied in their lives and taking a hard look at what they want. They are strong enough to change things. It is hard to change things and finding yourself at midlife can be a very disruptive thing that involves trying out a range of options. But, MLCers aren't simply crazy. They will never be happy returning to their old selves or old lives, so quit waiting for them to want to do so.
-- WAS will always regret leaving me. Unlikely, the alternative was staying in an R they found to be intolerable. Any movement from that is probably an improvement.
-- OP is evil Unlikely, most people are good at bottom. They may be uninformed about the real state of your M or in denial about the real harm that As cause to the parties involved. But, OP is not likely an evil person. Many OP have genuine concern for the LBS, but greater concern for the happiness of the WAS. Yes, the OP often have their own problems, just like your WAS. They may be controlling, needy, and manipulative, just like many LBSs. But, they are not evil. Nor are they at all the source of the failure of your M and continued S.
-- the A is an empty an meaningless R that cannot involve real caring Nope. An A can involve genuine caring between two people who share real pain and help each other cope. Sorry, but it is true.
-- the A is doomed no matter what Nope. Some As turn into the best longlasting R of a person's life.
-- I am right and in the end I will win This attitude is arrogant and treats the R as a battlefield and the WAS as a trophy. It is in no part the mindset of a person who eventually negotiates through a troubled M to find a healthy M
-- WAS needs me and will fall apart without me A belittling attitude that treats the WAS like an infant. It is not the attitude of a loving partner toward his or her equal. No one wants to feel less than a complete competent human being equal to one's P in an R.
-- WAS's life will be horrible without me WAS's life was horrible with you. Maybe your life wasn't horrible, or maybe you can't yet acknowledge your own unhappiness and pain, but it is a sign of deep disrespect to continue to insist that WAS was happy with you.
-- if I really love WAS, I will be there no matter what, always on the doorstep in case WAS decides to let me back in If you really love WAS, you will give them space and freedom to discover what they want from you
-- WAS can't deal with what it would be like to lose me WAS can deal with it and will deal with it if you won't give WAS they need before it is too late. Space involves giving the WAS to gain a real understanding of what life without you would be like and then to choose that way of life if they want it or to choose to try to reconcile if they discover that is their preference
In a word, LBSs are not better than WASs. LBSs are not smarter or more moral. LBSs are the one's who lacked the strength to confront the problems in their M first. WASs confronted the problems first. LBSs are the ones who become strong enough because of the pain of losing the WAS to work to improve things and change. WASs may or may not be able to get the space they need from LBSs to reach that point themselves before all chances of reconcilliation are exhausted.
Let go, be happy, get a life, quit controlling, drop the superior attitude.
It sounds like you are trying to maintain the exact amount of distance that she is comfortable with. This will not give her space to figure out whether she wants you or not. She will always feel comfortable staying exactly where she is as you move in and out to preserve her comfort level.
If he is already noticing you, then ramp it up. I too am not suggesting you go to any length that would make YOU feel uncomfortable but damn it, you look good and you want to show that YOU know you do.
I think the key here may be either direct conversation or action on your part. If you've followed my sitch, you know that the idea of timing is a hard one for me. I know I need to do SOMETHING (and did via the R talk) but don't know what to do and when.
It's a little more difficult in your sitch because you don't see him that much. Showing him your sexy, fun side again could do wonders for his idea that you are GAL and ready to BE the woman you ARE.
I hope he notices. Maybe if you sense him noticing, you could say something to clarify where you both stand. That is a judgment call you need to make.
If it were me, I would just go into the "date" with NO expectations other than to have a good time and just enjoy yourself. If you touch him and he pulls back, so be it, turn back to the comedy and enjoy the rest of the night. Remember, he is NOT your H so-to-speak. He is someone you are on a first or second date with. From that perspective, you should be able to understand how to do this.
Thanks for the tips. I already have in mind what to wear, and I was thinking along the same lines: sexy but not hooker-like. Men do often notice me when I go out, so I'm hoping some of that will be happening for him to see.
I just spoke to H b/c I had a work-related question for him (wasn't absolutely necessary, but I like to give him the chance to give me advice when I can). He was really busy but we chatted for awhile anyway and he sounded happy to hear from me. That made me feel good b/c I think maybe I can actually get somewhere with this. I guess my biggest fear is that he's "just not that into me" anymore, but he is extremely hard to read. Anyway, I guess I'll just play it by ear.
Thanks again, Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
I just want to comment on OT's LBS beliefs. I agree with most of this, but I do take issue with this one:
Quote: You may not have had an A but you have been the source of great pain for another person for a long time, you have violated your vows to be a loving supportive partner in many ways for a long time.
Ain't necessarily so. In some cases, the WAS is the source of his/her own pain, and needs to learn about him/herself and grow into a better, stronger person. That doesn't mean that the LBS is not to blame at all for the problems, but I don't think it's fair to assume that the LBS has been " the source of great pain for a long time." There can be many other issues involved.
~Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: It sounds like you are trying to maintain the exact amount of distance that she is comfortable with. This will not give her space to figure out whether she wants you or not. She will always feel comfortable staying exactly where she is as you move in and out to preserve her comfort level.
Ok, I guess I see this but it seems the time to "give her space to miss me" was earlier, and I did. I gave her the space, and I mean real space because for awhile I was not even really physically coming near her and was not in the house that much. When I was I was with the kids, not her. I still give her the space she wants now but to give her more than that so she can "decide if she wants me" seems to be counterproductive at the stage we are at. I am trying to be the man that meets her needs, or at least the ones available to me to meet, while also preserving my own boundaries and GAL. If I distance myself from her, or give her MORE space, that then will just be more of the same old me, gone all the time, upstairs when I am home and generally unavailable to her. She already told me she hated that "me" so why would I show her more of that so she gets reminded of how the "bad old days" were?
She has made comments that she likes that I am around more and that when I AM around, I am really "there" with her and not just waiting for the next thing to take me away. How do I reconcile her liking the new "me" with the space I should give her to "miss me"? I don't know if she ever really "missed me" in all this but I do know she is discovering how to appreciate me being around.
I personally think she DID miss me all these years and now likes having me around, ESPECIALLY since I finally GET that she does need her alone time sometimes, even if I am in the house. That is something I NEVER understood before.
So, I get what you are saying but I don't necessarily think in my case, more space is what she needs as much as time to work this out. I WILL keep thinking about this and look hard at the sitch to see if my opinion changes.
I would like to add to what OT has posted about this. I know for a fact that OP's are not evil because on of my best friends, who I turned to for advice in the beginning of all this, turned out to be an OP around the same time as my sitch started (and no, he is NOT my W's OP). We had talked a few times about my sitch and he gave me some GREAT advice. Then, a couple convos into it, he said he had to tell me something that may make me not want to talk to him about this anymore. He confessed that he had been seeing a married woman with 2 kids and that she was going to leave her H for him. I was shocked because this guy is one of the most likable, moral, great human beings to walk the earth. I don't think he has an enemy in the world. I quickly figured out that my idea of the "evil OP" was clearly off, at least in this case because this WAS the same great guy I knew but he was just in a situation that was less than ideal. I didn't hate him for it and more than that HE didn't think he was evil. I think we all think of these people as slobering, nasty monsters, bent on following their evil plans to ruin our lives. My friend made me see that image as false.
So, contrary to not wanting to talk to him anymore, I wanted to talk to him more because he could offer insight to the "other side". He did, and it really helped me understand that the "other side" is as full of good and evil as "our side" is. In the end, his sitch is completely different than mine because the LBS in his case seems to not give a damn about his W and was threatening D anyway, or at least that's the story I get.
Anyway, my point is that just as WAS are not evil, some/many OP's may just be people who allow themselves, or choose to be in situations that THEY feel justified being in, for love or some other reason.
Absolutely. In the end, the WAS is as responsible for their own happiness as the LBS is (and both always were).
So, I didn't make my point very well at all there. How is this:
--You have been an equal participant in many patterns that were part of a life that WAS needed to change to find happiness, patterns that were neither loving or supportive toward WAS.
BTW, you can be around more and genuinely engaged when you are WITHOUT pursuing her, and you can do so in a frame of mind in which you have really let go, at least for awhile, to give her time to CHOOSE YOU.
Quote: --You have been an equal participant in many patterns that were part of a life that WAS needed to change to find happiness, patterns that were neither loving or supportive toward WAS.
Man, you've got me pegged! Yup - he was doing self-destructive things and I "helped and supported" by putting him down and being nasty. For some strange reason, that didn't seem to work????
N
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
