Reading a post on Leslie's thread made me remember something else W said to me in the last big R talk.
She said...
W: I have always felt just as much pressure from you because of how you reacted in the beginning of all this, saying you could not live without me, and that I was "everything" to you. I felt like by doing this, or even considering leaving, it put YOUR well-being and future happiness all on me and I hate that. M: Wow, I never really thought of that in that way. Well, that's not true. I CAN and WILL go on without you. I love you with all my heart and will fight for you to stay but if you do leave, I will grieve and then move on. Thinking of that, I realize now that you said that, it probably made you think of your brother and how you feel responsible in part for his unhappiness. You have always felt responsible because if you had been there he would not have died (Her 18 year old brother died-a possible suicide/accident about 10 years ago and she feels like she could have prevented it). W: (with a BIG look of "OMG") YES, that's exactly what it reminded me of and it tore me up because I can't go through that again. I WON'T feel like that again. M: Well, I reacted emotionally and back then, I felt that way, but now I understand what it means to make my own happiness and that's what I will do with or without you. Of course, I would prefer it be WITH you.
We went on to discuss more related to that, her brother's death and how she still feels like she hasn't grieved for him, and other things. I don't recall when that was said in the overall conversation but I do remember thinking that it was big to have gotten that out. One of the things I found myself wanting to do was point out that I no longer relied on her for making me happy. I know she has seen it but I just wanted to make sure that she understood that I was neither putting overt OR covert pressure on her. I was secure in my ability to maintain no matter what happened or didn't happen. There was NO pressure from me other than the pressure my mere existence in the house provided. She seemed to understand this and accept it. I think that was important for sure.
I don't know if I've ever posted on your thread; maybe when you were TMU.
Anyway, things really seem to be going well for you, even though I know every day requires so much patience on your part. Your are learning so much about yourself and relationships, which is great. Too bad there isn't an easier way to learn it, though.
I want to ask your opinion about a situation I'm in, but I'll give you a bit of background first. H moved out almomst 9 months ago. He was having an A, but broke it off shortly after he moved out. We have been getting somewhat closer again and are on the path to rebuilding a deep friendship. I think the only thing holding us back from that is the subtext that comes from being separated. We have not taken any legal steps, btw.
With that in mind, we have been out for lunch twice since he left: December and Feb. We went out for dinner w/ kids two weeks ago. I invited him to a comedy show this Friday, and he said yes. Now here's my dilemma: I don't know if I can take being with him and not touching him anymore. Every time I see him, I just want to hug him, kiss him, run my fingers through his hair. I'm not even asking for ML (although I wouldn't say no!), but the no touching is huge for me. I can live with it when he picks up or drops off the kids, but even then it's hard. When the two of us are alone, it's even worse.
I was thinking of cancelling and honestly telling him why: he's just too sexy! I know you're in a similar position, except from what I gather, your W has said she wants to give your R another chance (is that right?).
Sorry barge in and just ask for help, but I really don't have any advice to give you.
~Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
No problem, thanks for stopping by. Barge any time you'd like.
I will be happy to offer whatever help I can but first I have a question(s). Is there no touching going on now (I know you have not seen him but...)? If not, whose boundary is that, yours, his or both and why?
Very important stuff. Anyway, you may want to try to back off and give her space for awhile so that she has the space she needs to figure out what she wants. She can't do that unless you are further from her than she wants to be to you. Then she will feel her wish to be closer. (I can't see the future or make any promises, but if I had to bet, I'd lay my money on your M becoming one that is strong and long-lasting.)
Anyway, back to backing off. Think of it this way, suppose she can handle closeness up to 10 feet away. More than that, and it is too much distance for her, she will keep coming toward you to close the gap to 10 feet. If you try to get closer, to 8 or 9 feet, she'll keep backing away to maintain the 10 feet.
Now, suppose she really does start wanting more in terms of intimacy with you, less distance. She becomes comfortable with 9 feet. If you have ALREADY closed the gap to 9 feet, she feels no change in what she wants from you, she feels no need to get closer to you, she does not have the experience of wanting more from you. Why? You have taken that opportunity away from her, the opportunity to have the space to feel what she wants...the opportunity feel that she wants to take a step towards you.
Why do so many here resist given WASs adequate space? (Rant coming...) Fear that they will be forgotten (won't happen) and neediness. A selfish need to be as close to the WAS as the WAS will tolerate even if that level of closeness is really less than the WAS needs to develop and grow into a more authentic person that understands what he/she really wants. You get a person unable to give their spouse space when you combine that selfishness/fear/neediness with an attitude all too prevelant among LBS that includes some of the following feelings/beliefs:
-- I know better than WAS does what WAS wants/needs. -- I am a better person morally than WAS. -- I have perfect insight into the "crazy" behavior of WAS -- WAS will always regret leaving me. -- OP is evil -- the A is an empty an meaningless R that cannot involve real caring -- the A is doomed no matter what -- I am right and in the end I will win -- WAS needs me and will fall apart without me -- WAS's life will be horrible without me -- if I really love WAS, I will be there no matter what, always on the doorstep in case WAS decides to let me back in -- WAS can't deal with what it would be like to lose me -- blah blah blah
That you have really been able to detach so that you aren't being run by fear and neediness, and that you have really been able to respect your W and extend her compassion and understanding rather than treating her like an evil crazy person who needs to be coddled and coaxed back onto the "right" path is the secret to your success. Yes, you are clearly a success, no matter what happens. And you can't be a success without getting to the point that the success is NOT contingent on the future of your M.
Anyway, you are clearly doing great. Excellent post to the newcomer BTW. Do you see how you can be pretty direct and open with a newcomer because you don't need approval/acceptance/validation from the newcomer? The lack of neediness makes it a pretty detached interaction, and being detached is what makes it so authentic, helpful, honest, quality stuff. You see, detachment really does allow for more genuine, less selfish, love and compassion for others, most importantly for those closest to you. It stops you from making their issues "all about you" and lets you instead really hear them and care for them.
Quote: Is there no touching going on now (I know you have not seen him but...)? If not, whose boundary is that, yours, his or both and why?
Good questions. Okay, the touching that's going on now is that I will sometimes touch him on the arm or something, or last time we were out w/ kids we were kidding around and I was using him as a "human shield." He occasionally kisses me on the cheek, but just touches me on the arm when he does that.
He used to hug me, but that stopped a few months ago; I think it was around January, but I'm not sure why. The last time I remember was when I got back from a trip in Jan and I asked him for a hug (which I've had to do for the last few *years* btw) and he hugged me.
So, as for whose boundary it is...I don't know. Maybe we're both just too scared to make the first move. He hasn't kissed me on the lips since before he moved out and even for about a year before that it was just a weak little peck.
However, he did tell me a few months ago that he's attracted to me again (rather than ow). I also lost a lot of weight with all this (too much, I was already very slim) and have put almost all back on. I told him this one day a couple of weeks ago when I was wearing a tank top, and he said, "I noticed!" I think he noticed I actually have boobs again!
So that's my tale of woe.
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Nicola - I say go. Wear a good Victoria's Secret push-up bra and a tight top that shows off that cleavage. Wear the sexiest perfume you can find (check out Indecence by Givenchy, all the guys seem to comment when I wear that - H and S14 picked it out for me). Wear a thong and make sure H gets a glimpse (JUST a glimpse - no skanky wearing it 5 inches above your pants!).
Be relaxed and funny. Smile at the other men there (nothing gets your H's attention like seeing other men's eyes follow you as you cross the room). BE the goddess you are. Radiate self-confidence. Stand tall. Let some "accidental" touching happen - your thigh against his, brushing something out of his hair, reaching across him, stumbling and "needing" to grab his arm.
Thanks OT. As I think you know, the idea of "space" is a really touchy one in my sitch, or at least I THINK it is because my W always seemed to want me around more, not less.
Still to this day, my W ALWAYS asks me to be around her, to rub her back, talk, etc. Since I AM gone a fair amount, she usually seems sad or upset when I am not there. She constantly asks me how long I will be gone, etc. This has never really stopped except for a month or so in the beginning of our sitch. Other than that, she seems to both want me around, AND wants her space too. It's like I posted awhile back; I think the important thing for me is to NOT force myself on her when she clearly wants space, and there ARE times when she does. In the past, I would not respect that and now I do so, long story short, I agree that space/how much space is important but WHEN to give that space is equally important in my sitch.
Thanks again for the vote of confidence. You know it means a lot to me.
