I could try to recreate the conversation my W and I had at about 11:30pm last night but I think by trying to put it in chronological order, I may either forget something, or add/remove context. So, I will just post the highlights as I remember them.
This started when my W was going out into the garage for a smoke. I happened to be going to the laundry room (right next to the garage) and she turned back to me as she was closing the door and looked really upset. I told her that she could talk to me if she wanted. She said no and started to close the door. I stopped her and said "Don't close the door on me, literally or figuratively." She protested for a few seconds and then started talking. In the course of the conversation a lot was said.
She said OM is still putting enormous pressure on her. Of course, this means she is still in contact with him. She says she has only seen him once and talked to him a couple times. I didn't really react to this. I was trying very hard to just listen.
She said that she still feels like she's doing things for other people all the time, that she never makes any decisions for herself and to make HER happy.
She said she thought that mainly because her sister and parents always made her feel guilty about anything she did for herself and so everything she did as a kid was to please them and as an adult, it continued. I also admitted to being controlling throughout our marriage to which she agreed. I said I saw that our entire marriage and it hurt me to see her doing that. I told her I understood why she felt that way but didn't agree at all. I said the day she started this affair, which BTW was a VERY strong thing to do, not that I approved but wanted her to know that it took strength to do that, she once and for all stopped being that girl who tries to please everyone. She said that she felt that the A was a thing of strength but never wanted to seem proud of it, especially to me because of how much it hurt me. I said maybe the specific act wasn't something to be proud of but making the decision to be happy WAS something to be proud of. She smiled.
She said now she wanted to make a decision on her own and didn't feel like she could, that she has no options. I said it may feel that way but she did have options. I told her that I was committed to improving myself and just being me the best I can but I did not want to control her in any way so if she made the decision to leave me, then so be it but I would fight with everything I had, which in my case is DB (didn't call it that, but kinda described it) to keep her in my life because I love her. She said she knew that and appreciated how I have been through all this.
We also got into the intimacy stuff and she confirmed pretty much exactly what I thought. I said I thought she really liked sex but was turned off by my lack of passion. She looked VERY relieved and said "Of course I love sex. I love sex with you but..." I interjected (sorry, should have let her talk) "But the fact that sex was the first physical contact we had for the week was horrible for you." She almost let out an amen and emphatically said "YES, that's it exactly. You never touch me and when you did, it was ALWAYS to have sex. I love having sex with you but over time I got so turned off by the way you went about it. You stopped being romantic. Everything stopped." Then I did something pretty strange and walked over to her, turned away, put my hand on her back, rubbed her for a second and then touched her breast. "See, that had to kill you. It was my test 'touching' to see if you were in the mood. The worst part is I think it probably made you feel like it could have been anyone there and I would have done the same thing. I wasn't expressing my PASSION or DESIRE for YOU, just that I wanted sex with someone, something." She cried a little and said "Yes. I felt like I didn't even matter. I felt like you didn't care it was ME in bed with you. You didn't even look at me."
We went on to talk more about that and that topic kept coming back up for the rest of the convo. At one point she said "I spend my whole day caring for the kids, hugging and kissing them and nobody ever does that for me?" I was kinda shocked. I said that I didn't know until then, that she wanted me to touch her, hold her, kiss her. I said that for years she seemed like she didn't want that. Then she said it clearly "No, I wanted it but the only time you ever did it was to get me in bed and even though I liked THAT, it hurt me that you didn't kiss me or touch me for any other reason." I just said I was sorry. I didn't understand.
I said at one point that I was NOT happy with the way things were. She called it "status quo" and also said she was not happy. I said that I thought we made great progress in terms of communication but almost no progress in "us". She said there had been NO progress with "us". Of course, I mentioned at this point that so long as the OM was in the picture, there probably would be no progress. She agreed weakly.
Much more was said about OM and at one point, about 45 minutes in, she told me how he's been telling her that she's not making any "independent" decisions and how he knows she won't leave our marriage because she's not strong enough. She will just stay and do what's expected of her. I probably jumped on this harder than I should have but I somewhat animatedly said "Wow, that sounds EXACTLY like what you told me awhile ago. You told me that YOU felt that way yet it sounds like you are just repeating what HE told you." She actually agreed with that and said "Well then, how do I know what I am making a decision for myself?"
I loved that opening. I told her that first of all, I think she's made a TON of decisions on her own since I have known her, the biggest of which was to be a stay at home mom, something she has love being. I reminded her that her parents, my parents, her sister and basically her entire family put pressure on her to put the kids in day care and get a job but she refused, stating to them that it was important to her to raise her boys, at least while they were younger. I always supported her which ever way she wanted to go. She agreed and it seemed like she hadn't really thought of that before.
I gave her some other examples where she didn't do what people expected of her and then said "The real problem I have with this, and what He's telling you, is that it seems like the only decisions you can make that would be independent or for yourself are the ones that have you leaving me and going to him." She laughed and said "Well, he obviously has no vested interest in us staying together."
She also admitted that a lot of this is her being upset at just not ending things with him. She said she did this before with her old BF that used to be voilent with her. She stuck with him even though he hit her and she sees this as a similar situaton. I didn't really know what to say to that so I just validated and let her move on.
At some point, after a lot of OM talk and talk about her panic attacks and anxiety, I decided that it was getting late and too intense. I didn't want this to be a bad thing in the end so I said two things. First, I reminded her that through all this, I never asked her to stop seeing him. I never tried to "control" her in that way. She agreed. So I said, "This is the first time I will actually ask you to do something. I want you to look me in the eyes and understand that if you decide that you can possibly find happiness AND be in our marriage, that I want you to REALLY try for that. I mean give us a chance so that you get to KNOW what is possible with us, and not base what you think on the past."
She looked at me and seemed to sincerely say "Ok."
Then I said that I wanted to finish what I had to say by (thank you OT for this BTW) letting her know that I envisioned and wanted a future where this affair/OM was behind us, and she was aware of her wants/desires and was able to fulfill them from WITHIN our marriage because she would feel free to do so without control or manipulation from me. I said I saw a future where we could do all the work that needs to be done to build something new and exciting between us, something that we never really even had in the beginning.
Her reaction was "That sounds great so now what do I do about 'him'?" I didn't have an answer but to tell her that I loved her and would help her in any way I could but that she needed to end that if that's what she wanted and when she did, I would be ready to be there for her. She said she understood.
There was a LOT more said. She did some venting at how unhappy and unloved she's felt for years because of me and that she doesn't really ever thing she was "in love" with me. OF course I said I could see that she felt that way but that as she's seen with OM, that "in love" thing NEVER lasts and when the "everything's prefect" stage wears off, the real work begins but that the "work" was a labor of love.
I told her at one point that I struggled with what I should do last night, talk to her or pin her against the wall and kiss her. She said I absolutely did the right thing because she's not ready to be kissed like that yet [by me]. At that time she also admitted a little more about her and OM being physical but still said they had NOT slept together.
All in all, I think we explored new territory and I got a chance to be VERY validating while still making sure she understood what I felt as well. That was a real first for us. It was a positive talk but the negative thing is that she is still massively conflicted. She seems to have made a decision to stay but OM is talking her out of it. She SAYS that she has not talked to him in days but I know (sorry to let you all down, but I do not regret this) because I checked her phone, that she called him twice a couple days ago. She admits to still talking to him so this was not a shock. I told her in no uncertain terms that if she wanted to work on us, and really try, that she just needed to let him go completely but that I was not telling her to do that. She needed to make up her own mind because if she came back, I wanted it to be for the right reasons.
I don't know where things go from here. I am really worried about her and this anxiety. She is a basket case right now and I can't really be there for her like I would want to. Part of me thinks she needs to deal with this on her own and part of me wants to help her. Unfortunately (or fortunately) since I am not there in the day when she is at her worst, my decision is made for me.
I still see this as a step forward. I still see things as progressing towards reconciliation. What this talk did for ME was once again let me feel like she knows where I stand, and that I understand where SHE stands. I know that I need more patience and all this talk of intimacy is too much, too soon. She needs to put this OM thing behind her and until she does, I need to DB my ass off and do what's best for me as I have been for the last 5 months. It's too soon to think about anything else.
Sorry for the long post. There IS more, and it will probably come out later in the day or when I think of it.
