Yes, you are right - every woman I know has faked it at some point. And I bet you are right about your wife. I didn't mean to chip away at your sexual confidence. Mostly, I meant to add a vote that if you can get things going, then indeed, the rest WILL work out. We are chemically programmed for it. Nature is on your side. erin
and then there are other times when I could tell something was different if you know what I mean.
No, what do you mean?
(1) She seemed more present and really into the sex -- a good thing, but doesn't in anyway guarantee an O.
(2) You felt her muscles contract blah blah blah... All of this can be faked.
I guess I am lucky to a certain extent to have been with a couple women in the past who were VERY open about these things and taught me a lot about what to and not to do. That's why I am reasonably sure that when it comes to the actual foreplay and intercourse, I am doing fine
First, this is pretty much what ALL men think. Second, pretty much ALL women fake sometimes and MANY do so very regularly. So, it looks like a lot of the men are just plain wrong.
And yes, they all say "Yes, but..." and go onto give evidence as to why *they* are the special case. Guess what.... They aren't.
It might be a big help if you could have a Beginner's Mind here. If I were your W and your confidence and ego were so obviously and tightly bound up with your ability to reliably induce real O's, then I would be very unwilling to be honest about any dissatisfaction in that area.
I can't imagine that she has a hot sex life with you that really gets her going and gives her great O's, but is one in which she has been entirely uninterested in for years. It does not add up.
Mostly, I meant to add a vote that if you can get things going, then indeed, the rest WILL work out. We are chemically programmed for it. Nature is on your side.
I agree with this... Maybe it is why women need to be getting it to want it, and then the more you get the more you want.
Quote: 1) She seemed more present and really into the sex -- a good thing, but doesn't in anyway guarantee an O.
(2) You felt her muscles contract blah blah blah... All of this can be faked.
1) Yes, and 2) I guess.
Look, I am not one to ask "how was that for you?" afterward. I don't need to be told "that was great" and I don't need to feel or hear anything to make my ego feel good about what I did. I just enjoy "doing" for my W and I THINK she enjoys what I do. The real reason I think I know W has had some and maybe not sometimes is that I don't think she'd actually go through the effort to fake it THAT well. I doubt she has a CLUE what physical signs I know to look/feel for. We NEVER talk about that stuff so how would she other than assuming that I must know somehow. The bottom line is that I have never really been that concerned about it. I think she had a good, sometimes great time in bed. I think my seduction efforts or lack thereof were SO horrible and lacking any kind of passion and it was SUCH a chore to actually GET to the good part, that it turned her off to think about it. That's my impression of why she seemed to actually enjoy IT but didn't want to do it that often, because it seemed like such work...even I thought that and I wanted it all the time but was hesitant for the same reasons.
Quote: First, this is pretty much what ALL men think. Second, pretty much ALL women fake sometimes and MANY do so very regularly. So, it looks like a lot of the men are just plain wrong.
Yes, and a lot of those men probably need to hear that their wives are "satisfied" every time in order to feel like a man. I don't need that. I WANT her to have an orgasm, and I think she often did, but if I found out that she faked or that it wasn't AS good as she made it out to be, my first reaction would be to find out how I could make it better, NOT have my feelings crushed. I think it's possible to care if my W is satisfied without NEEDING it to feel good about myself. The truth is that my main focus in bed is my W's pleasure, so much so that, as I discussed much earlier, I rejected her from things SHE wanted to do for me and thus added to an already difficult situation. Could I be wrong about all this? Sure. Could my M be in trouble because I insist on thinking I am at least somewhat right, maybe, maybe not. I am fully aware that I seem to be two people. One is the semi-shy guy who has trouble with intimacy and the other, this confident man who seems to know what to do when it comes time to do it. Maybe the truth is that I am really just me, a normal man who THINKS he has a clue and really does not. I can only hope that through this process of building a new R with my W, we get to address these issues in an open, direct way. In fact, I won't allow us NOT to do that if at all possible.
Quote: And yes, they all say "Yes, but..." and go onto give evidence as to why *they* are the special case. Guess what.... They aren't.
Yes, and by special case, they mean why their W's NEVER fake because they are the most amazing super stud alive that knows how to please a woman every time. I do not claim to be that at all. I am only saying that I accept the reality of the situation and think my W has been satisfied sometimes and not others. I know that all sex cannot be of the "amazing" variety. Sometimes it is amazing and others it's simply ok, for both of us. I don't want to accept a lifetime of "ok" sex and I don't think that's what we had. Clearly I need to know if that's what my W was thinking. It has been PAINFULLY (not literally of course) obvious when she was NOT satisfied and as I said before, to the naked eye, pretty obvious when she was. Then there is the vast in-between that I admit I don't know about. I don't think that is claiming to be an "exception".
Quote: If I were your W and your confidence and ego were so obviously and tightly bound up with your ability to reliably induce real O's, then I would be very unwilling to be honest about any dissatisfaction in that area.
As I said, I doubt my W has a feeling one way or another about this, the topic has never come up. She hasn't asked, I haven't asked, we just don't discuss it. We do it, enjoy it most of the time (I think) and then don't talk about it. I think that's part of the problem. We NEED to be more open about this. Like I said, I doubt it VERY much if my W thinks I am "wrapped" up in her having an O, and if she does think that, then she is projecting another man's "wrapping" onto me most likely.
Quote: I can't imagine that she has a hot sex life with you that really gets her going and gives her great O's, but is one in which she has been entirely uninterested in for years. It does not add up.
And after all that, I will give you this one. It doesn't add up. To be honest, I would sound MUCH more sure of myself if it weren't for this "not adding up" part. As for her being uninterested, I don't know about that. She just wasn't interested in me kinda half-heartedly trying to initiate sex with her. She just wasn't interested in it after I stripped away all the romance and passion from my end of it. Understandable I suppose.
GH, from reading your posts you are really beating yourself up about this. Please stop! For one, I think any man that would put up with so much crap and do so much for the woman he loved is just a fantastic person in my eyes. And you know what, if this whole chapter of our lives never happened we would just be living these totally unconscience (sp) lives. All of this $hit has made us wake up and smell the coffee. A year ago, would you have actually had any of these thoughts. Would you have really analyzed your R and your sex life? I bet not. So if anything, all this garbage, as painfull as it is, has made us MUCH stronger people. Be thankful for that. Rejoice in yourself. Be proud of your integrity and know that every night that you go to bed that you are a stand up guy. You love your wife and all of her faults and you are there for her and your children and that your will not compromise your morals. Be at peace with yourself and your situation. In time, everything will work itself out. As much as I hate to say it, take a break from here. We will miss you terribly but you need to focus on something else for a while. Love ya, Mama
P.S. More from the crazed LBS in limboland.... GH, let's pretend that you are in your W's shoes. What might she be thinking?
"What the heck is up with GH? His desparation is making me sick? Why can't he just leave me alone? He's licking my cheek...yuck? I can tell what you are thinking...please don't talk about our R, it makes me feel cornered and trapped and pressured to give you an answer that will make you feel good. Just leave me be to think about all of this. Please GH, go about your business and please don't expect too much from me right now. I do love you, you are the father of our children. You provide a life for us so that I don't have to work but is that all that there is in life. I need some time to think. Because of our history and our family I'm pretty sure that I want to work things out between us but I feel that you are forcing me to make a decision. Please just tone it down a bit. I can barely make myself happy let alone be responsible for your happiness. I don't mean to sound harsh, I know you are a wonderful man - you have proven that to me by fighting for our marriage - please just give me some space."
Thanks for both of those posts Mama. As to the second one, I have said it before and it bears repeating now, 97% of what I post/vent about here never sees the light of day in my sitch. As far as W is concerned, at least by what I say (or DON'T say) and do, I don't even think about sex anymore. As far as she's concerned, I don't agonize over this daily. I am a relatively happy, surprisingly centered man through all this to her. I'm a rock at home. We don't have R talks, I don't really do much of the "little things" these days in terms of hinting at intimacy. I still buy flowers every other day and still do other "romantic" things that address her LL of receiving gifts but I have backed off the others stuff.
So I AM giving her space as much as possible when we live together and sleep together. That said, now my decisions get harder because I now have to figure out if she needs MORE space or a caveman club over the head...thanks...lol.
As for taking a break from here...maybe. Work is still REALLY slow and it passes my day to cruise around here but maybe you're right. We'll see what today brings.
you said a few posts back that your wife didn't like going out to many places etc and that it was hard to get her to go out something about babysitters etc etc
so why not have fun at home you and the kids set up a picnic in the lounge room bring in some plants or make some cardboard trees and birds and hang them around the place and when she walks in there you all are sitting on a blanket in the middle of the floor with the picnic basket
do something different create some silly fun it worked with the cheek lick come on get creative
I think this is really the only thing immediatly available to me other than having the dreaded R talk. Actually, if anything, I have already tried making things much lighter around the house because of all the tension. It's actually one of my strong areas, humor. Thanks for the reminder to use it to my advantage.
GH
P.S. Ok, trying to take the rest of the day off from here. Will read a couple posts and then...poof!
