A New Phase

[always_14]

Been a confusing day--venting here, so prepare for a lot of negativity. I have to find my center soon, before I go home to an evening with H. Funny, I read the things I post to others here, so confident and together and rational, and then get moments in my own life where I am so tired. Tired of acting, of the effort, of pushing pain and reality down to a deep place, tired of lies, of always suspecting, of always acting so as not to shake the boat. Really, tonight is a night that I am so tempted to tell H that I would like to stay in a hotel. The thought of spending time with him now makes me want to get in the bed and pull the covers over my head--forever.

Here's the conflict, in short synopsis without gory details. This morning, an unusual bout of neediness from me prompted us to discuss that H has a habit of just sitting there, not participating, in any talks we have about R/M. I am frustrated to be the one to always pull, talk, turn, etc. I never initiate talks now. I suspect he likes the talks now, is ready for them, but is still not putting in effort. He was sweet, said he was so sad that my sadness was so close to the surface and said he undestood why I felt the way I did, but explained that this morning, I didn't give him a chance to dialogue. True and I apologized. Then, he said he wanted to have a serious talk this evening. I said no, you don't have to, and now you're only having it b/c prompted by me. He said, yes, but, does that mean you will throw it away? I said no, that I will talk if he wants tonight and left it at that. We actually ended up with smiles, laughs and affection.

Then, this afternoon, I *strongly* suspect he has lied to my face. In fact, concocted an elaborate lie to cover that he has given OW lots of $, presumably to cancel their little secret phone. I was expecting this, as he has always paid for it, but the cover up was a bit much. Of course, a VERY small part of me hopes I am wrong and I will have no proof until next week. Why obsess over the proof, is it snooping? No, it's not--it's OUR account. Plus, he's STILL lying. Then, he tells me that he wanted to come clean (which is where the cover lie comes in) and be transparent because I deserved it--to know the truth (OMG!!!). Said he was sorry for the past, and wanted to do this for me (basically lying that he gave another person $) whether I accepted it or not or believed or not. I was quiet and got off the phone.

So, I'm in a bind. I can only wait until next week until I see for sure.

The biggest question...WHY IS HE LYING ABOUT THIS??? Why act like you want the M to work, make effort to try in the M for the first time in nearly a year, seem sincere about it and then LIE to my face AGAIN about OW.

Ugh, if anyone is reading, your opinions, however short, or thoughts would greatly be appreciated. I am getting centered again, but feel like life will NEVER get past this...this is so pathological, it's scary. It's not the M I want.

I'm not sure how much longer I can do this. This is NOT the way I want to live my life anymore. It's like half-living, half-dead.

[always_14]

Oh, the day just gets harder, and I just get sicker hearing myself complain. OK, I will stop feeling sorry for myself in a minute and realize that NOTHING can affect my life except for me. I have choices.

But...here goes.

So, I find out just now, happily, that H has received ANOTHER award, the highest one he can receive this year, for his work performance. For a guy that said he feels like he's falling apart, so unhappy, throwing himself into work to avoid our M and me has really paid off (OK, sarcasm, I know).

I was sitting here stewing over the fact that I *know* he lied to my face, wondering if I can accept this in my M (of course, it's not much of a M right now) and scared to death that he will continue doing this. THEN, I have to turn around and he ecstatically happy for H. Which I am, I am quite proud and happy. But, a LARGE part of me thought "Geez, now I have to stuff all my things down again, be happy, supportive, and all that."

I immediately called him and turns out I was the one to give him the news, I was happy on the phone and suggested we go out to dinner as a treat. He was happy.

I think what scared me the most is how I WAS able to, in literally 25 seconds, turn my emotions like a switch from stewing/miserable to happy (or at least sounding the part). And really, I AM very happy for him.

OK, enough whining. I am VERY happy for H and incredibly proud. I suggested we go to dinner tonight and intend to have a splendid time. I will go back to my mantra: detach, enjoy the moment, his mess his clean-up, enjoy MY life, and be ME.

Why did he lie? Hmmm, my best guess is that he's in the process of ending (or covering up, but his actions toward me show that he's turning back to me) the A with OW. He is scared of letting out the truth. I sense (and he has indicated) that he is very nervous about MY feelings about our M, whether I want him or not, if I am miserable, etc. He likes what we have now, the good times we have, enjoyes me, and I think, frankly, is really scared now to lose it, over something he's ending anyway. Also, the more truthful part is that he wants to protect HIMSELF from looking bad. OK, when I write things like this, I feel that I am just delusional and making myself feel good here. I am NOT excusing his behavior, just trying to understand where he's coming from.

Of course, wrong is wrong. Now, if I find that the truth is what I suspect next week, I have to decide whether to call him out on it or not. I think I will. I need to set boundaries....like OT said on another thread, not to tell H what to do, rather to claim what I cannot be a part of anymore. BIG difference.

Until then, I will enjoy the moment, stop the pity party and get centered again. Life is short. Life is good.

[believing_isaiah43]

ah, crap, always. i'm so sorry. if i still had to deal with an OW, i would be pathological at this point. kudos to you for handling it at ALL, sister. well, i guess I still deal with an OW, her ghost, anyway haunts me frequently. am useless for advice at this point. has a really positive week last week, and then was sick all this week and my first day out of bed and being semi-healthy we backslid 50 paces. just shoot me. every time i think we're getting somewhere, i look around and we've been marching in place. dammit, but living is difficult. hang on sister, hope you have a lovely dinner tonight (heavy on the wine)!

[Mamabear]

Always, I think you are living in my head as I feel EXACTLY like this:

I read the things I post to others here, so confident and together and rational, and then get moments in my own life where I am so tired. Tired of acting, of the effort, of pushing pain and reality down to a deep place, tired of lies, of always suspecting, of always acting so as not to shake the boat.

This is where we need to really practice detachment - placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life. We need to develop and maintain a safe, emotional distance from our spouses whom we have previously given a lot of power to affect our emotional outlook on life.

I know you are feeling down right now, I too go thru this at least once a month (hormones could play a part) but don't be a victim, don't let his perceived lies get to you. It's working for me. My H always has unaccounted for time during the day - he gives me a story, whether it's true or not I don't know, I just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Yes, they want to work on their M BUT they may still be obsessed with the OW and it is hard to get over an obsession. I am in no way defending them, believe me what they chose to do was WRONG, but hang in there you have come so far!!

[always_14]

Had the worst night of my life last night. Everything came to a head. It was bloody awful and I was a total lunatic.

H and I had the talk. I was edgy, fighting, pissy...everything I have learned in DB and other things all this time went OUT THE WINDOW. Back came the old person, I couldn't control it. I was very calm, but snappy, sarcastic comments. I was through with patience really. All of his confessions were by my questioning, none of it coming out on it's own. Still frustrating, but I guess I can understand. I was horrible at questioning.

What happened?
* H voluntarily admitted to a PA with a woman I had no idea was in the picture. The really amazing part is that he knew I did not suspect PA at all, and still told me. I could tell it was hard. I knew he was scared of losing the great times we had the last few weeks. But he told me anyway. I have to confess, I don't know if I could have done that. Apparently, it was a woman he met long ago when the bomb dropped (back in late 2005)...at a bar. They hung out a handful of times afterwards and had sex...once (so H says, I still don't know what to believe). He said it was good, she was pretty, nice, fun conversation. It happened, he enjoyed it (surprised he admitted that), then he said he felt shocked, guilty, regretful, thought of me, came home and felt horrible, thought I could see through him. Said that he never contacted her again, b/c he was scared of it, shocked and regretful--it wasn't nice. He said the R they had was nothing, just a handful of hang outs, no meaningful conversations, no strong bond. So he says. He has/had no feelings for her. He said that part of him blamed me for it, part of him wanted me to leave him, wanted out of the M, wanted to push me away and reject me so I could do it.
* Said he forgot me, felt I didn't love him, just saw me as an angry person. Hated me, wanted out from me. Said the sex was an escape, could have been anyone, rebellious act. Escape from the misery we had at the time and the pain he felt. Said it was nice that someone was attracted to him, to feel that. Was nice to be wanted.
* As far as the OW that I HAVE known about. That was kissing and making out, apparently. He admitted that the situation didn't present itself for sex (at least he didn't say he didn't want to). Actually said that she didn't want to do it. I think H felt badly doing it with her and then not committing. Said he felt closer, more attracted and cared for her more. She made him happy at times, fun, sweet caring. Said he wasn't ever in love with anyone, got carried away and wanted to get lost, but not in love...said he didn't feel he had much love for himself, let alone someone else (makes sense). I asked if he missed her....he said no. I think something happened to turn H off. I asked if it hurt him, and he said no, he was disenchanted long ago. Said that she didn't necessarily pose as a great gal and busted, rather he projected all great attributes of a great gal onto her and it wasn't so. Said she wasn't what HE made her out to be. Nice that he didn't blame HER for being psycho or anything, bur rather his own fantasy. Said it was a friendship, she was crazy about him and it made him feel good. Did say that it was boring, juvenile at times, and not fulfilling (didn't say this in a nasty way, though). He said it could have been anyone, it was basically him running away from me and us, an escape again.
* About us. He feels so guilty and it's his biggest obstacle. Basically, he leaned toward D and asked for it last night b/c of his guilt. Said he could not face me or my family again. Said that it wasn't gonna get better, that he could not go the rest of his life being suspected and mistrusted. Admitted that he did not want to live with the consequences of his actions. But, also said that the last few weeks made him feel that he could be in love with me again, reminded him of all the dreams we had together and he would not have it w/o me. Said that no one had given him more happiness in his life than I did, and through all his anger at me, he still loved me, which is why it hurt so badly. Said that the last few weeks were a level of happiness he didn't have with other FF's, etc. With me, he said it "felt right, comfortable, relaxed, you understood me, I was a stable happy--not with this dual life that was unfulfilling." Said he was afraid of letting go of someone he cared about, and someone he thought it could still work out with. Felt that leaving wasn't the absolute right answer, but he was feeling honorable and strong enough to make the decision, mostly out of his own guilt. I asked w/o guilt, did he want to be with ME? He said yes, wishes he could turn back the clock and take it all back and work things out earlier. I asked if I was a fallback, second choice, easy to come back to ....he said NO...coming back to me was nothing easy nor a fallback. I asked did he come back b/c things with OW didn't work out? He said NO, that was disenchanting long ago. Said he started letting himself think of wonderful memories of me again, and thought of me in old ways, like "precious" and as much as he wished he could forget those things, it meant a lot to him, our good times. Said that the last few weeks were really happy for him, the only thing that got in the way were his lies (nice of him to admit that). Said he felt badly accepting my kindness, it was hard for him when I took care of him when sick. Said he felt that I was gonna walk out the door any minute, was prepared for it, a little scared but OK. Said he did have hope and real excitement about our future the last few weeks, then dampened by his guilt, but said the last few weeks he really tried with me (as much as he could with a pack of lies on his shoulder), and put effort into US.
* For the first time, I see the MLC-like sypmtoms or maybe this is just a common byproduct of his phase. He said he was really depressed now, and it took his joy away. Not about OW, he didn't care about that (so he says, though he was a little pissed when he talked of her now...so don't know if that withdrawal is a thing, but he said he harbored no bad feelings, did not dislike her, just didn't want to talk about what happened). Said he felt like he was a different person the last months, and now like he was waking up from a fog and now depressed at the ruins around him after his fog. Was depressed at why this had to happen at all. Wished he could go back to how things were, happy. Worried about rebuilding things, how overwhelming it seemed.

ME:
* Not pretty. I was ugly. I was a lunatic. I let it all out. I yelled. I called him horrible names. I was mostly calm. When he told me had sex with another W, I was actually silent, not screaming or throwing up as I had imagined the scenario to play out. But I had bouts of anger, then sadness when we wept together. He refused to tell me name, location, anything of the woman who he had sex with...also refused other details. Said I would never get that, it was uncomfortable for him, and if that meant a D, then so be it. I was angry. I raged. I accused him of so much...of not loving me, of not caring of our M, of not trying now, of being overwhelmed by this crap that he never tried and was passionless about saving the M. I wept and wailed. He took it all. He didn't run away, didn't argue, but he did stick up for himself when I got out of control, slung it right back at me (which really set me off). He said he wanted to let me vent on him, be angry at him. I know it was horribly painful for him, and I can only imagine.

I handled the evening ALL WRONG. But I felt I could not help it. I felt it was everything pent up for months, coming out. It's no excuse and today I am MUCH better, but still, I think the discovery of infidelity warrants a little bad behavior. As long as I rebound. I made him feel unsafe, hated, evil, accused. That was wrong. But I DID hate him. I felt so unsafe with him for so long with the lies. I am not gonna beat myself over 1 night. He said he expected it and actually wanted it, as my kindness was killing him...I think it feeds into his guilt.

* In the end, we told each other that the hardest part is remembering the wonderful things (mostly me talking and him agreeing, he is emotionally spent, feeling guilty and tired), and not being able to fully hate the other person to let them go. Being stuck--feeling that you can't let go, but can't rebuild. Feeling hopeful and hopeless. Feeling hate and love. Feeling sad at all the we wrecked. Feeling vulnerable to the other person's love again.

* So, I don't know from here. It's gonna be a tough road either way. I'm feeling calmer and more forgiving and compassionate. Though I am angry and will have tough moments, I am also the most stable I have felt in months. I feel like knowing the dirty truth is like a grasp on reality, so I feel whole again.

[ACJ]

Always I have not posted to you before and neither am I at a point of reconciling with my H. however, I have been at that point before and so I can give you a little insight. IMHO you did not handle last night wrongly. You handled it in the only way you knew how.

When he told me had sex with another W, I was actually silent, not screaming or throwing up as I had imagined the scenario to play out.

The night my H came home last time he too told me he had slept with OW (please bear in mind that last time he only left for a month and he did not know this woman when he left!). I reacted exactly like you only unconsciously i took it one stage further and the first words that came out of my mouth were 'it doesn't matter'. Of course it mattered but that was my gut reaction. I had just spend the last month trying to convince my H to come home. Even the day before he had told me he didn't find me attractive anymore and did not want to date me! My anger came out the next day. I threw shoes at my wardrobe and make a mess of the paintwork. My h also told me he slept with OW just once. He even swore on the bible to this. Then it came out that it was twice and b/c he told me who it was i went and confronted her and she said 3 times. You know what it really doesn't matter how many times. Once is too many. However, I knew then what I still know now and that is that I love my H beyond comprehension and so slowly we rebuilt and for 18 months appeared to be happy. Things are not looking so good for me this t ime as he has been away 6 months and has actaully bought a flat and moved OW in. I now realise that the reason I find myself back here again is that we both slipped back into our old ways without even realising it. So what I am trying to say is this. Maybe you didn't DB very well last night but from today onwards and for the rest of your life with H (or any other R if it comes to that) you must live by the 'rules' b/c otherwise you will never escape this viscious circle. BTW I didn't have the luxury of knowing about DBing last time I wish I had.
I wish you all the luck you deserve

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Always,

I am glad I checked your thread today. You have always been an inspiration and a source of support to me, so now I hope I can be one to you. I know how painful it is to find out that your worst suspicions are verified. It is such a painful reality. But listen, hon, you did not do that badly! Look at you today. You are already back, aware of what was good and what was not so good about your behavior. Your reactions were normal, don't beat yourself up. In some ways, as you said, it probably allowed H the truth of his worst fears, but now at least everything's out on the table. He's told you what he's done, and you've told him that it hurts more than anything you've ever experienced.

I don't know if you can manage this, but if this is close to what is in your heart, here's what I suggest: Tell H you are sorry for the parts last night when you were out of control. Tell him that you are hurt but that you are also really grateful that he told you the truth. That his honesty matters to you most. That you would like to stay married, and you don't know how to get from here to a healthy marriage but that you're willing to explore those possibilities with him.

Can you see how good it is that the truth is finally being revealed? Reassure him that the truth will make all the difference in having an R together. This is the beginning now, of the possibility for rebuilding. Everything you did before in your DBing was to allow for this to occur. I am so proud of you, you set the stage that he could speak. Let him know that you can handle the truth, even if it is hard, that you may rant and rave if you are hurt, but you are working on that, and that you will work it out - it is part of your process.

You have some wonderful things going on here. H is remembering that he loves you, cares about you, has happy memories of your life together. He even said he is coming out of the fog! Oh God I pray for that day with my H. I know how hard this is right now, but you are lucky. After every breakdown, is a breakthrough. You are at the beginning of new opportunities that you have allowed to surface. Keep up the good work, always. It is always OK to be your authentic self. H wanted to see that, see that you are human and that you care. He will also be happy today, when you once again come back to him with kindness and understanding. I know you can do it. I will keep checking on you.

[WCW]

Hugs to you. There's a lot of information to digest and process. It's certainly a decision you and your H are going to need to come up with, if you can and want to work thru the truth of the past. If you have a grasp on reality, can you deal with it effectively and with a purpose of rebuilding a relationship? it will be hard work, are you both up for it?

[always_14]

Well, the weekend was a big one. To continue:

Saturday night: Go out for dinner, have a good time, really talk a lot, openly and first time we're really communicating. H is actually talking and asking questions. Says he wants to try this, ready for it, looking inward at his mistakes. He said he's still sad, but much less sad after confessing. I agree and thank him again, b/c I feel good too, knowing the truth. We both agree that we're more alive. Dinner is great nice time.

Sunday: I vent more, calmly, about my feelings, try to tell H how I felt crazy, detached and it was hard to get back and I often had feelings of "not caring" like I should as a W. etc. etc. Communicating, and venting b/c I wanted to let this go and let him know how I felt in a non-chaotic manner. H then open up and tells me that all this time, 9 months (when he was in his fog, mind you), and especially over the past wonderful weeks, he has tried so hard and prayed to fall blindly in love with me and has not been able to and is sure that he can't. Says sorry, he tried. I said OK. I also said that I felt the same, but I thought it was b/c we were too close to pain/guilt....that when we WERE in love, we had a clean slate and none of that. That the more good times we had such as teh weeks before, the closer we can get to that. He said he was confused in a lot of pain, not sure if it was the right thing. Said he could not fall in love, yet I was the only person he loved. I let it go and said that I cared deeply for him, and if leaving was best, then I was open to it and respected his wishes. However, I wanted to make the decision in a calmer, less emotional state and get us both back to feeling like stronger people. I also stated that falling in love, as he himself mentioned, was something you did only when you loved YOURSELF, which we did not b/c of our mistakes and feeling low about it.
That night, we went out with friends, H was a little more distant. We have a great time with friends.

That night, I cry in the middle of the night, wake up feeling so badly at all my mistakes in M. I really didn't try and treated it with little care. H wakes up and asks, and we start talking a lot. He asks a LOT of questions, which I answer great-mostly he asks about my mom (who also acted a lot like I did in our M), he asks if maybe I was just hardwired to act the way I did. Why did I act the ways I did? Etc, etc. Goes into a huge speech about what men really want...etc. Then goes into a dialogue about how much he hated being married to me, marriage, how horrible it was, and what a raw deal he got marrying me, how he put up with me, etc. Painful to ehar, but I listened and did not ask anything--just listen. I thank him for telling me all of this. Then he says that 2 things came from him cutting out OW/FF's and making more time: 1) he saw his love for me again 2) he started feeling his pain for me and the M (never really faced this the last months in the 'fog'). Swore that he wasn't mad at me, but our M. THen started saying that he was so mad, got up and left the room for the rest of the night. Said that we were different, he was more caring, etc. I did not argue, just listened, did not even really validate, he was MAD.

Next morning, gets up, takes a run and goes to work. At work he sends me the most horrible email: You are a worthless W. I should have never gotten married adn will never again. i cannot protect you from my feelings. The hummiliation of my M is officially over, get the F out of my life, take what you want, do not contact me unless you have something to sign.

So, he kicked me out. I packed a week of stuff an left yesterday afternoon. Feeling numb, but better today. I talked to 2 friends about this. They both feel that he is angry, but not serious about D. That this is the first time he's facing his pain/anger, first time letting it out. I agree.

In our M, I always overexpressed myself. I always found flaws in H, yet took advantage of the fact that he kindly and patiently overlooked mine. He underexpressed and never got angry/vented or stood up for himself. The few times he did, I argued what he said. I was horrible. I'm not getting down/depressed on myself, rather self-awareness of the pain I caused and loving myself to change for the better.

So, now, this is the first time H has found 'his voice' and his male role in the M. He is putting his foot down. He is drawing boundaries and saying it was NOT OK. Strangely, as hard as the email was, I have so much respect and love for it and feel the pain he went through even to send it. I am not mad, and I am proud at how much I have grown. One year ago, I would have gotten upset and only thought of how horrible it was for ME, never thinking of H. Now I do. It was my first reaction. Yesterday and this morning, I tried to meditate on what he said, to listen again to things he said were my failings, for my growth. I am spending time sorting through my pain of what he did and assessing if I can forgive and work on forgetting, which I want to do regardless of the outcome of this M. I am focusing on H and his voice, and respecting it. H mentioned that patience and compassion and understanding were things that were hard for him to find for me now. He didn't know if he could ever again, after how I acted in the past, that understanding my mom was one of things that opened him to this for me. I can understand, I tested and killed all his patience over the years.

H tends to put things into 100% black and white categories when it comes to people doing him wrong. He cannot see his part and in his mind is very unforgiving or willing to see any good. I am scared, in a way, that I am now placed here, for it's easier for him to process. Yet, he feels his guilt as well. I am afraid taht I will never be given a chance for him to see my changes and the mere fact that we can change. He is angry that I might mistrust him in the future and can be seen as sleazy, yet after all these months, he's unwilling to pull down walls to love me again.

So, in the dark with H for now. Who knows when/if he will call. Who knows when any of this will end, and how. I'm trying to not think of a negative outcome. A large part of me feels that all that is done is too much to go back, I just don't see how a positive outcome can go from here....then there is a part of me that still envisions a positive outcome and wishes for it. I'm trying not to be too hopeful, so as not to kid myself.

[WCW]

((((A14))))
I have no wisdom to share, I'm pretty blank lately. Respect yourself, and keep your chin up.