Hi All. Back on the boards after physical and mental vacation! Ahhhh. Lots of time to think back on the past, my actions, my regrets (not beating myself up though), healthy distance, understanding H, remembering the wonderful things of our M and of H, and the pain he's in right now. BUT, lots of time NOT thinking of the M too, which was SO nice. Came back to H a little nervous but overall lots more comfortable with me, more relaxed between the 2 of us, and more time together.
A lot has happened too, which is why I'm back here....feeling the need for support and to write.
Last week, H initiated a M talk--shocking--said he has wanted to talk for a while now. He was nervous, upset and finally came out and vented his pain, and I listened, validated and respected. This was big for him, and I was so truly happy that he could do this. Without blame, details or anger, or demands, I vented a little about the pain of his dishonesty and A, H listened and validated-I wanted to avoid turning the conversation to this topic when he was venting to give him the stage. Also, moving on the A topic is NOT something I want to initiate, ask for, etc...I want it to come from him when he's ready. I know that he's still in contact with her...but sees her little if at all. He admitted that since I've been back, he made the decision to spend all of his time with me. It was nice that I never asked for that and I let it go when he told me this.
H said that he spend time while I was away facing his pain, anger, resentment, against me, but also against himself for forgetting all the good things about me, for slipping off the track himself, for his guilt. H essentially said that I had changed I was sweet, gentle and kind. He admitted to screwing up with the A--implied it was over (he still talks to her so he's not totally ready to be honest--but I didn't bring that up) and said that he was afraid b/c long ago I felt that I could not live with someone who was unfaithful to me. He said he ruined that value for me, and felt that he was having a hard time figuring if he was good enough for me. He said that he knew I felt that way and just waited for the day I got up and left him for what he did. He said he was still confused too, but liked spending time with me now, felt that he couldn't talk to anyone else like he did with me, thought that he would be crazy to leave me, but was scared. He said he was tired of being angry, in pain, and was ready to move forward and forgive, that my apologies were enough. He said that he was over being the victim and now felt that he was the injurer with the things he did lately. He said that he didn't miss her, she made him feel better and essentially it she was a product of him running AWAY from me, the way I made him feel. He wasn't running TO anyone in particular, just AWAY from me. He said he was sorry that he ran away from me instead of communicating and solving and fixing, sorry for so many things. He said that he wanted to start living with honor in his life again, with respect to the lying and affair.
This weekend was nice, but I had a few moments when I was just plain mad, sad, frustrated at him. Our talk was like opening up the messy closet that you keep shoving things in and cramming shut, and then one day you can't close it anymore and have to clean it. Part of my "detachment" the last few months was pushing back my emotions until this phase. I didn't argue, just left to take a drive, was quiet. H has become so traumatized by my anger that he could not handle it, though I tried to show it in a different way. He offered to leave the house, because he was putting me in pain. I said no. He said that maybe we should be friends, start dating again. That sounded good to me, plus he said that when I was gone, it was a time that he finally let himself face the pain I put him through, allowed him to think, feel angry, miserable, I was happy to hear that. He denied that and buried for so long--I wanted to give him more time to do this. Also, I know that it's important for him to live with honor....I too thought of leaving so he wouldn't have to lie to me, live his life the way he wants...he's not the type to lie. I know that he's moving toward living honestly, and I need to give him space to do that...finish things with OW or me to get there....it's not something I want to be around for either. He's still dishonest, but as I read here on another thread, I think now it's to avoid details that are not what they seem, but are a reminder of a painful act.
Last night we had a little fight and I lost it. I was so scared of my own reaction. I was hysterical. I just started crying and getting panicked. I think that all this time, I have pushed down my own feelings, and realized that when we have a fight, and H gets angry or aloof in tone, starts shutting me out and gets quiet (b.c that's his reaction to my anger or any conflict) I panick b/c I fear that he's running away emotionally and to another person. We both have really bad reactions to what we did to each other. It took a lot to calm myself down....which is frustrating b/c I've been so calm lately.
So, last night, I decided to move out. I think it'll be good for both of us, mostly him. It's for 2 weeks and then he goes away for work for over 2 weeks, so a month total. I think that we needed it.
We still need to talk about his affair, etc. But, I'm so sick of being the one to initiate talks, progress etc. I have been putting my heart and soul into fixing this M for so long and now it's about something I didn't even do. I am ready to sit back and wait until he can start being honest with me, come to me and tell me everything, apologize and tell me what he wants--in or out. I did that for him. Plus, it's something he needs to do for HIM. I refuse to ask for an explanation or apology...i shouldn't have to. He knows he needs to talk, but feels that he's lied so much, I wouldn't believe him. He's right. I wouldn't.
We'll have that conversation when the time is right: when I'm ready to believe and he's ready to tell the truth, on his own, not my asking.
Until then, today I'm feeling VERY emotional. But OK. I'm glad to be on my own. I know I can do it. It's good to be out of the house too. Time for me. No rules, we'll call each other when/if we want...to date to be friends. We both agreed that this is a time to REALLY see if we wanted to be together....not simply split b/c of the pain we caused each other or stay together b/c of guilt. This is the time to really see if I am a woman he wants to be married to or if he is a man that I want to be my H. I don't know. It's like starting over, which, in a way, is nice. Also, I'm a little emotional finally allowing myself to see how much I mistrust him, feel him a stranger, have no urge to be truly close to him.
The last thing either of us wants is pity, the other person to stay out of obligation.
I feel like I should post some nice things that H did the past days...to be fair and not that I am simply griping. I have enough to gripe about, too!!
He suggested moving out for me, as he felt his presence was painful for me and that I could not think in an obligatory R each day. He's right, it's kinda nice to wake up alone to cry, be in a sour mood, etc. I told him that I would move out, I wanted to get away from the house, etc. He said he would agree b/c I insisted, but said that it hurt his pride and aws very difficult to let me move out. I said I respected that and we could trade next week, but it's what I wanted/needed. He appeared to be worried about me....nice but a little too late on some levels.
Weird, for a person who says they are still confused, still in touch with OW, and not come to me with details and any final motions, he brought up the topic of buying a car soon...I was quiet b/c I think it's weird to talk about....he also said he wanted to participate in an event I'm in soon to support me, be there with me. That was SO sweet....hard to resist, but I think I might say NO b/c it's something I'm doing for ME, kind of like a personal growth time of life thing.
He's also made a few more gestures to be serious....been very complimentary on my looks, interested in things I say, justmore engaged. It's weird...after being ignored for so long. I have lost the urge to care, trust that this is real and not just out of guilt, which is probably what it is.
((a14)) what a return to forum update! OMG! I wish you well on your decision to move out, that takes a lot of guts. I truly hope it is for you, and not an effort to draw H back to you.
This part really sticks out to me"but said that it hurt his pride and was very difficult to let me move out" What does that mean? hurts his pride to let you move out?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Hello always - This is such a painful part of the recovery. Hugs to you.
He appeared to be worried about me....nice but a little too late on some levels.
Could he be worried you are moving out to be with a male friend? Or that you were moving out in pursuit of greater independence? If you still stayed at home, he could pop in as it suited him, but if you moved to a new place, it would be unfamiliar territory for him.
He's also made a few more gestures to be serious....been very complimentary on my looks, interested in things I say, justmore engaged.
Enjoy it! Flirt with the guy - act as you would in a new relationship. Some lightness is going to do you both the world of good
WCW and Slowly, thank you so much for posting. It makes such a difference to get posts from folks here....it really is supportive right now.
WCW-hurts his pride in that he is a man, letting his wife move out into a hotel while he stays in the comforts of home. I told him that I understood and respected that, but I had to do this for me. He respected that.
Slowly-No, he's not worried about me moving with a male friend. In fact, he mentioned to me that he wouldn't be angry if I decided to date others at this time. I said the same to him, to which he replied "I've already been there, and done that, and not what I'm looking for now." I said that I wouldn't do that, as it's not what I'm looking for, nor something I could do. He made the suggestion out of guilt for what he did, letting me know he understood if I did the same.
He was worried about just general things of me being alone....the car breaking down, safety, etc.
Yes, we do flirt at times and have lots of light times. It's kinda hard for me...b/c at times it feels fake....like we're acting while standing on a pile of &*^#. BUT, it's been valuable b/c the more good times we have, the more we trust each other, and feel more compassion towards each other when the talks DO come. I think he's slightly distrubed and shocked that I so openly admit to accepting that he's still lying and seeing someone else and that he has been. He can't deny it, but I'm not blowing up at him....which is normal for anyone in this situation.
Last night....good and bad. I mentioned that I've been super emotional the last 2 days....monthly hormones, the adjustment to separation, etc. I've been having a tough time leashing these emotions, so have been processing and getting back to that strong place I was in last week. Yesterday, I emailed H to tell him that I was safe, b/c I knew he would be worried...I also asked a timely question about our car. He never responded all day. I let it really frustrate and upset me b/c he manages to text OW all day even when really busy. He said he was worried but never called to see how I was. That hurt.
But, last night, I called again. I wanted to tell him goodnight, I was OK, and just check in and say hello, as a friend. I was emotional and shouldn't have called. I don't know what happened, he sounded fine, but I was sad, weepy, needy, mopey. HORRIBLE. He shut down, and then admitted that he felt bad, like a failure b/c he couldn't give me what I needed to make me feel better. I asked why he didn't want to. He said he felt that he was apprehensive, being roped into a fight, an endless emotional drama, etc. I said that I just missed him, wanted to say hi, but if this was his reaction to me being needy, then I should know to go my own way. I would not ask him to change, but accept and move on. He said me being needy did freak him out, but he loved doing things for me as well...he said he didn't know all his feelings but wasn't in the mood to sort it out then, wanted to get off the phone. I was being really needy, so I kept him on the phone (yes, hit me now).
I calmed down, but what proceeded was a conversation where he really vented more about his feelings about me, and his pain, his disgust. He said he took back apologies that he made during our M, he tried his best, I was awful. Proudly, I was graceful, took it all, made some really meaningful apologies. I validated, didn't get defensive at all. I admitted to some of my needs long ago, in a non-defensive kind way. I told him that I accepted him as he was, and loved him, but if it wasn't right, then we had to move on. It was OK.
His tone initially when I was mopey was aloof, cold. Then, he turned defensive, angry, pissed when venting. In the end, he admitted that he was waiting for me to backlash in anger for things he said, expected a fight, or for me to retract my validations. I said I understood why he felt that, b/c I DID do those things before, but not now. He still has a hard time believing that. I did NOT bring anything up about the A, b/c I wanted this to be his stage for his pain....this has been a long time coming. I will have my time one day too. He said that he initially felt badly for running away from me and not approaching me about his issues, but now he did not feel sorry for that---he felt he did approach me several times but I bit his head off, and made him regret it. I did do that. Could he have tried harder? Yes. Could he have simply moved out instead of having an A? Yes. So, we both learn some painful lessons again. I didn't say those things, but it hurt...and one day I think I will point out the fact that having an A was not exactly the answer. I don't think he was justifying it though. I validated that he did try to approach me and I pushed him away.
I heard some really candid, painful, angry words from H last night....his tone was such that I've never heard before, very disgusted and angry. Believe it or not, I was so happy. He's always held this inside, shut me down in expressing his pain, and now it's coming out. At least it's some emotion. It also gives him a chance to see that I won't hurt him. Last week he said he finally feels safe with me.
We ended nicely. I was shocked, usually he hates these conversations....last night, he said on his own, several times, that he was happy I called. He wasn't happy that he still had work to do and would be up late, but happy that we talked. I said I was happy he told me what he did, thanked him for taking the risk to open up, and happy that I actually listened. He thanked me for that as well. He said it meant a lot to him that I emailed this morning, and called to say goodnight.
I'm back to feeling quite strong. I was far from perfect in my M, and all I can do is improve, for me. This move out has been great...for me to reflect and get strong again. Also in that I don't want to be at home like a doormat while the A is still on. It's good for my pride to walk away. For H, he's finally facing, thinking, drudging up pain he needs to face to heal. Glad we had a respectful talk last night.
For me, this is a time of reflection. Who do I want to be? Why? What do I want in a partner? Honestly, right now, H doesn't have everything I want. I know M is about compromise, but aiming high is good too. My biggest challenges with H are his tendency to run away (emotional physical) when things get tough (pattern in our 14-year R) and also his lack of integrity in saying sorry, seeing his own faults and impact in a bad situation. Not only with me, but also with how he handles others, his past job, etc. He sees the way he was, and has changed a lot, but still afraid to admit that. I feel that I have come a long way in opening up, admitting faults, etc, and I want someone who has enough self-respect and esteem to do the same.
For now, I'm going to hold off on calling him, emailing, etc. Maybe go dark. What do you think? I'm just tired of always reaching out, but he's also in this delicate stage of opening up, and I should be loving now, too. I reached out yesterday, now the ball is in his court. I have plans each day this week!!!! He said he would call today, and I said only if he wants, no expectations, this is a time to take out for us, not obligations. He said OK. I also wanted him to know that he doesn't have to say things he won't commit to....I don't need false promises--another really big issue I have with H.
Whoa! Always, I hope you didn't move out as a result of your emotions. Last week when I had a big fight with my H I was ready to call the cops for a restraining order, call an attorney and get the ball rolling on the big D. I was so hurt and angry, but in the days that followed things got much better. My H has said several times that he is afraid to open up to me because of my emotions. This is what I want to work on with my C. I need to find out how to calm myself and figure out how not to respond to my emotions all the time.
Part of my problem is I am selfish. It's hard to admit but it is true. I want my H and our M regardless of the fact that maybe my H doesn't want the same thing anymore. When I attempt to get him to feel and think my way he feels cornered and trappped and wants to get as far away from me as possible.
In any case, be true to yourself. Be loving and supportive to your H as you would a good friend. Notice that your actions may have forced your H to protect himself from you. In your heart, be willing to let your H go, but in your actions, do everything you can to create an environment where he feels loved and appreciated and he would never want to leave.
Thanks for the post, Mama! No, didn't move out of emotions...I've wanted to do that several times, and refrained. It was VERY civil, nice and mutual, just peaceful. We both agreed that space was necessary...but I think each of us had the other in mind to benefit. I see this being really good for H...already he is facing more of his pain than in the last 6 months.
You are VERY right....my actions DID force H to protect himself from me. The distance and pushing away is shocking, but sad. I too was selfish in wanting to preserve the M, at a time when he wasn't ready. He was in a phase of being mad, confused, etc. I pushed. Now, I feel that I'm in the confused stage and he's indicated several times that he's more ready to stay in the M. But, I want him to think hard about this.
Funny, he said that in the last 2 months, he's felt me actually invite him to leave, the door being open, gently. He doesn't react well when I demand and ask "do you want a D" he HATES being the person to do the final act or make the big plunge. So I spend months making him comfortable to leave. He did admit that he's waited for a day that leaving would be right, and it just never comes....he said that after I admitted the same, so his feelings were sincere.
I think now he's confused. More on the side of staying though. He sees how great it is. Then, he faces the fact that we are so disconnected, so much of a mess to clean, so much to push through. We agreed that splitting seemed easier, but somehow didn't seem right, for now. I have to admit, I feel the same way as well.
Right now, I want to be a friend. Someone who is safe, and not expecting anything in return. Anything more would be manipulative....I'm not trying to make him stay...just be me, be a friend and we'll both see if it's good.
Right now we're both caught in this weird place. Feeling like victims and criminals at the same time. We're in this turbulence of feeling sorry and guilty for the other person and feeling sorry for ourselves. A mix of guilt, remorse and anger/resentment. I saw that in him last night....this weekend it was guilt, last night it was anger. I flop back and forth too.
Also, making the decision to stay, and fall in love is just the first step. There is so much to rebuild. In the wake of the mess, I see that we have created lots of mistrust, and safety issues with each other. We have BAD reactions to certain things the other does. My anger traumatizes him....his emotional withdrawal traumatizes me. I guess it's putting all that out on the table and seeing how to consciously do things that make the other person feel safer.
Of course, too early for any of that now, if the time should come at all. Time and patience is all I've got.
Funny, last night, in my mopey mode, I told him that I had spent lots of the day remembering the wonderful times we had in our early stages....he said it was nice to remember when we fell in love again. He was surprised that I had those good memories of him. I thanked him for a beautiful time in my life, some of the best years.
Hey hun.....I am so sorry that your sitch has come to this point. You seem to be holding up fairly well by the sounds of your post. I wish I had some words of wisdom for you but I don't. (Nothing new, I know!! )
Just wanted you to know that I am routing for you here on the sidelines.
~SE
I'm moving on...at last I can see...life has been patiently waiting for me.
Me-32 WAH-35 DD-11 DS-4 H left 11-03 Piecing- 12/04 WAH again- 03/07 Married 12 years Divorce final May 15, 2007
SE--great to hear from ya. Glad things with the move are coming along on your end! Really, I'm glad about moving out, and happy it came to this point, it kinda had to. For both of us. I imagine this is the space the H needed a while back, but both of us were too scared. It's DEFINATELY what I needed....not idea, but I thank God each morning I had the strength to leave. I don't have to live and pretend that I have no idea that an A is going on or that I'm OK with it. Also, H is free and doesn't have the pressure to lie and sort his life out on his own.
It's just until his work break where he is away for 2 weeks, where I'll move back home. I'm assuming, after that, we'll have a talk and see to continue being separated or live together again.
Funny thing, H made it sound like this was for me, b/c of the A, but he has yet to contact me voluntarily AT ALL. I think it's a time of reflection and facing his feelings/pain too, so I don't blame him for not reaching out. Or, he's feeling guilty, and shameful to approach me while things going on with A.
I'm having a hard time figuring the A and OW out. Is it serious, so hard to let go? Yet, he voluntarily said that he felt that he couldn't talk to anyone else like he could talk to me (and we didn't have really deep conversations, which means theirs are just superficial?), that it was a product of him running away from me, and volunteered that he has intentionally started letting that go and was over that. Also, he's said that he's more attracted to me, and has shown it the past weeks. What's the power of the hold? What am I lacking? It's confusing and also a real esteem blower.
I'm just confused. Confused if this M is what I want. All this time I've been fighting for something that now I doubt. So overwhelming to go back, it seems easier to just take the next step and get a D. But, I just can't do that.
Overall, I'm doing quite well, considering. I'm really proud of myself, I had no idea I could muster this kind of strength. I'm not falling apart. I'm in fairly good spirits, thinking a lot, so not as jovial, but I am with friends. I've gone out with friends nearly each night this week. Taking time to face and think about possibilities I refused to focus on before. Remembering my part in this mess, which is a real reality check in the pity party mode.
The only thing that's scaring me a bit as an impact of all of this is my loss of focus and horrible memory. I used to have a memory of a computer (scary, yes...BAD in fights though). Just recently, I missed 2 meetings and got very confused with the dates of 2 conferences I have. I'm not as focused or creative or on top of things at work. Now that I'm out of the house, time to really focus on getting back on track with these things. I cannot fall apart like this. It's disturbing, and it'll definately give me a boost to throw myself into work. I've tried to address this area before, but I think that much of my conscious and subconscious was so occupied just living with H. Now it's not.
Things I miss: I miss company, laughs, and the good times we had, even when things were rough, like even this weekend. I miss a lot of things I don't want to write now, things I have forced myself to push back in my mind for now.
Things I don't miss: I like not having to NOT try waiting for him each night when he's "working late" but really out or talking with OW. I like not caring where he is, with whom or doing what. I like not having to "act as if" when I'm really sad. I like not having to pretend that things are not a mess. I like not having to lie in agony while we go to bed and do not touch, and wonder if I'll get a hug, a kiss, whether it'll be out of obligation or true affection. I like not having to see H's face when he comes home to me, with that look of, "oh, you're here...ugh." I like knowing that I am the strong woman that I envision myself and all women to be...independent, not competing, not waiting to be the one that H simply "falls back" on.
The other thing I was happy about when moving out--H said that he wanted to start as friends, maybe date, etc. I liked that idea. I was, at the same time, thinking after a nice weekend..."so, is this is, as good as it'll get, how we get back...just a simple easing back into normal life with no fanfare, no big talks, big reflection or decisions, no pushing the restart button???"
Funny, about women and strength. I see so much of that on the boards, as well as the men! On my vacation, I saw a lot of family and really had the chance to see the women in my family in a different way. I was trained to see them as everyone, including they themselves, see them. As housewives, wives, moms, cooks, caretakers, hostesses, etc. Wonderful, sweet, nurturing. But, this time, I heard and reflected on the lives and events of each of them....the husbands lost, children lost, husbands strayed/betrayed, financial distress, going up against cultural norms, going to college, working. I was proud, and took strength from this. I come from a long line of strong women who stand through tough times. I am proud.
This is hard. But, this is good. While I wish I never had this pain, I think of what I would've been like without this phase. I never would have grown, been more self-aware, been more aware of feelings of others, never learned patience, understanding, depths of love, learned to remember the good with the bad, learned silence and gentle ways of dealing with anger...most of all, I would have never known how strong I was inside.
I guess we all learn that here. How awful would it have been if we never discovered that in ourselves.
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