Oh girl, your H has just spent so much time being a butthead that you no longer know how to talk to him. I was talking, btw, about the "does this mean you're no longer willing..." statement. Not the Where's the Shirt one. Ha haaaa. Dissecting someone's life eventually becomes funny, kwim.
Quote: man just that one sentence scares the crap out of me.
Don't worry; it scares the crap out of all of us! Seriously, we all get kinda skittish about true intimacy..it just means you're human. It's gotten easier for me as the years go by but you have to understand that the R has improved by leaps and bounds so the intimacy gets easier. My point is that these vulnerable statements will be heart-pounding during the time that you are repairing things with H. He may take that vulnerability and stomp on it, he may react in kind, he may ignore it altogether but at least you will have the peace of mind in knowing that you stopped sinking to his level and conversing on HIS terms. (butthead-ese, in other words)
Quote: How do I know for sure if he's truly telling me his feelings, in which case I should try to understand and validate or if he's just creating a diversion, in which case I need to make a boundary and refuse to be dragged into the conversation in the direction he tries to take it??
Well I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I would say that an easy rule of thumb would be to keep the convo on topic. Don't let it wander all over the place. He diverts it when he puts it all on you. Like Corri said the other day, she hated it when her H would call her a bitch. So she adopted a new strategy: "Yes I am a bitch. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about xyz.." So I believe you can validate his feelings while keeping it on topic at the same time.
Quote: I need one on one C with you HP, lol
Oh gosh can you imagine?! It would start out with me asking you to expand on your feelings and next thing you know I'd say, Screw this--let's go get a beer. Then we'd be talking about nail polish and having a drink and telling stories about our kids. I am not responsible enough to be anyone's counselor, LOL. But I play one on the bb, whenever I feel like running my yap.
WOW! I can already see the change in you attitude and lowered defensiveness. Maybe that because you’re talking to HP rather than me. But still a noticeable change.
The crucible is just Schnarch’s term for confronting oneself about something like making a hard choice, facing your issues. In your case, your H puts himself into his own crucible when he is nasty to you, but then feels guilty about it. He knows he was wrong but doesn’t want to confront himself as to why he acted like that. So he projects blame onto you.
Holding onto yourself is not allowing him to do this to you to or accept that projection. It is his issue, his crucible, and unless you rescue him by accepting responsibility for his behavior, sooner or later he will have to come to terms that he is the only one responsible for acting like that. Once this acknowledgement is made, once he “owns” his stuff, then he can start working on change.
Nonetheless, this may be the kind of conversing I need to learn how to do....man just that one sentence scares the crap out of me. Sheesh, what does that say about me?????
Dunno. What does it say? Why does that scare you? I’ll bet 10-to-1 it has to do with your FOO.
Thanks HP, those are really encouraging words and just what I need. When we start talking about changing the way I communicate with H and identifying when he is making ridiculous attempts to make it All About Heather, I get so freaked out because how do I know for sure what he's doing? How do I know for sure if he's truly telling me his feelings, in which case I should try to understand and validate or if he's just creating a diversion, in which case I need to make a boundary and refuse to be dragged into the conversation in the direction he tries to take it?? This is HARD.
Why does it matter whether or not you know why he is doing something? Even if you really, really think you know, you may not. So if you can convince yourself you know, you are calm. If you convince yourself you don’t know, you panic. But you still don’t know, so why the opposite reactions? Because you are still depending on him to set how you feel, see? Only time and the consistency of his actions to build a level of trust will cure this. So stop being the puppet on a string.
You’re doing great. It took me SOOOO long to learn what you’re learning now!!
Whew. I see what you mean about being vulnerable. This would be telling him both something revealing about the way I am feeling and second that he had the power to make it happen, i.e. ignoring me is WORKING!! Nonetheless, this may be the kind of conversing I need to learn how to do....man just that one sentence scares the crap out of me. Sheesh, what does that say about me?????
Perhaps it says that when you've been vulnerable to H in the past he's hurt you and you're anxious about putting your hand back in the fire. Maybe it says that you want to be optimistic and work on yourself and your M but when H isn't good to you it drains your positivity and energy.
MWD is a proponent of SBT, and part of that is we can search for the "why" of our inefficient or harmful behaviors until the cows come home but the important part is changing the behavior to something positive. So don't get distracted by what that says about you, just change it if it needs changing.
This is the type of thing that always strikes me as a red flag. When you say, "Sheesh, what does that say about me?????", I hear, "See, I really *am* messed up! My issues have probably made H what he is today." Which is overstating my case but you see what I mean.
Heather, you're fine. You're working on yourself, you're trying new ideas to help your M, you're learning and growing. Give yourself full credit for all that and keep building your self-esteem from there. If you find it interesting that making yourself vulnerable to H scares the crap out of you, note it and move on.
You've been dealing with an incredible amount of emotional turmoil for nearly two years (and you dealt with a lot in the years before as well). Yet you've become stronger, more resilient, more confident, and happier with yourself. What does *that* say about you?
Enjoy your weekend!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
MWD is a proponent of SBT, and part of that is we can search for the "why" of our inefficient or harmful behaviors until the cows come home but the important part is changing the behavior to something positive. So don't get distracted by what that says about you, just change it if it needs changing.
With all due respect, I differ on this point for one simple reason. As I stated above, I bet 10-to-1 this comes from her FOO. Some people have very traumatic and scary experiences that they never want to bring up or relive. While I think those need to be worked through, I can understand that resurrecting them can do little more than open old wounds.
I am not as familiar with Heather’s past as you, but I don’t recall anything so traumatic in her FOO. To kids, some things seem so scary, so enormous, so overwhelming. These things can set up patterns of reactions that continue right into adulthood. The older we get, the more we forget why we react the way we do. All we know is that we do. As adults, if we can go back to those scary times, we may see that they are not so scary anymore. We are now bigger, more capable and powerful, so what scared us when we were young does not seem scary anymore. All of a sudden we can shut down our anxiety because we have conquered that fear. It may take little more than just making the connect for us to put the emotional reaction to rest.
Of course there are other issues that may take much more work to overcome, but if it is an easy issue, one generated only by our size and weakness as children, and confronting it may be rather easy, why not do so? But we never know until we dig into it, so that is the paradox.
The consequence to not confronting our fears is that we stay stuck in the same rut for years and no matter how hard we try different approaches, the same hurdle keeps coming back. I see many people on this board dealing with that very issue because solution-oriented brief therapy does not nail the door shut for good on these kinds of matters.
First I want to say I'm reading your first thread "Am I creating a SSM (part 1)" at Cobra's suggestion.
Our situations is very, very similar... but then there is alot of that going around from all the threads I've been spending way too much time reading on here.
Quote: It is his issue, his crucible, and unless you rescue him by accepting responsibility for his behavior, sooner or later he will have to come to terms that he is the only one responsible for acting like that. Once this acknowledgement is made, once he “owns” his stuff, then he can start working on change.
I agree with this whole heartedly! When I stopped taking the 'blame' for my H's nastiness toward me... only then did his attitude change. Only then did his threats of leaving and D stop.
Quote: Because you are still depending on him to set how you feel, see? Only time and the consistency of his actions to build a level of trust will cure this. So stop being the puppet on a string.
I did this. Big time. And I can't say I don't slip back into it at times. But there is something that changes when you don't allow it any longer. When my H sees that I'm calm (sometimes a facade) and not letting his little comments etc affect me... his nasty attitude fades away.
I'm going to wait to say anything else until I catch up on the complete threads... but sweetie, you are right... you need to set boundries or he his going to stomp all over you for as long as you let him get away with it IMO... It's hard. I had to get mad enough and fed up enough... then I let him have it... I think you need to do the same...
Like Cobra said... you're doing great... it took me too sooo long to learn what you're learning now...
First I want to say I'm reading your first thread "Am I creating a SSM (part 1)" at Cobra's suggestion.
Our situations is very, very similar... but then there is alot of that going around from all the threads I've been spending way too much time reading on here.
Quote: It is his issue, his crucible, and unless you rescue him by accepting responsibility for his behavior, sooner or later he will have to come to terms that he is the only one responsible for acting like that. Once this acknowledgement is made, once he “owns” his stuff, then he can start working on change.
I agree with this whole heartedly! When I stopped taking the 'blame' for my H's nastiness toward me... only then did his attitude change. Only then did his threats of leaving and D stop.
Quote: Because you are still depending on him to set how you feel, see? Only time and the consistency of his actions to build a level of trust will cure this. So stop being the puppet on a string.
I did this. Big time. And I can't say I don't slip back into it at times. But there is something that changes when you don't allow it any longer. When my H sees that I'm calm (sometimes a facade) and not letting his little comments etc affect me... his nasty attitude fades away.
I'm going to wait to say anything else until I catch up on the complete threads... but sweetie, you are right... you need to set boundries or he his going to stomp all over you for as long as you let him get away with it IMO... It's hard. I had to get mad enough and fed up enough... then I let him have it... I think you need to do the same...
Like Cobra said... you're doing great... it took me too sooo long to learn what you're learning now...
I think it's a good idea to do both these things at the same time. I agree with cobra that it can be useful to know why people are doing these things, where the behaviors come from, FOO stuff, making unconscious things conscious, etc. And besides, I just want to know this stuff.
But some people get stuck in needing to know "why" before they are willing to make any changes. They can even use not knowing why as an excuse for not making any changes. The why can take a long time, and in fact, may never be totally answered. So I think it's good to change behaviors in a positive direction, too, even before you know why you were doing the negative stuff.
This may not be true 100.00% of the time, but I think it's a good principle.
That's so formal. As long as we're all on Heather's side, feel free to refer to me as "Look, dude,".
I'm not hard over on FOO issues but I'll state the objections I do have. First, MWD isn't a big fan and I think she's pretty smart and I tend to defer to her on this type of thing. Second...
I bet 10-to-1 this comes from her FOO.
I wouldn't take that bet because you may well be right. But if you offered me this bet and nine other similar ones, you'd be on. The exercise would highlight my next objection to FOO analysis...are we going to be able determine that a particular fear came from a particular FOO root so we can figure out who wins each bet? To me, it's like thinking we understand why someone else did a particular thing. We may think we know, we may even feel completely sure, but we turn out to be wrong so often it's usually not worth the effort.
I am not as familiar with Heather’s past as you, but I don’t recall anything so traumatic in her FOO.
I think there are some candidates. Have you ever discussed issues from your FOO in IC, Heather?
Of course there are other issues that may take much more work to overcome, but if it is an easy issue, one generated only by our size and weakness as children, and confronting it may be rather easy, why not do so?
Hey, nobody likes picking the low-hanging fruit more than me.
(Lil) The why can take a long time, and in fact, may never be totally answered. So I think it's good to change behaviors in a positive direction, too, even before you know why you were doing the negative stuff.
Indeed. There's no downside to changing behaviors in a positive direction. If there's something deeper that sabotages positive changes then it needs to be rooted out, but that's not the fault of the new, positive behavior itself.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
...are we going to be able determine that a particular fear came from a particular FOO root so we can figure out who wins each bet? To me, it's like thinking we understand why someone else did a particular thing. We may think we know, we may even feel completely sure, but we turn out to be wrong so often it's usually not worth the effort.
Maybe yes, maybe no. It may not be worth the effort if we end up not being able to identify the source, so I agree there. But you seem to be also asking what is the source? That we may never know if we only go of our memory, which may be dim. But what if Heather is suddenly convinced her problems stem from an alien abduction when she was young? I doubt you or I would think that is truly a source, but if she believes it and is able to settle any anxiety because of it, then hey, I say go with it.
Another thing Lil said that I’ve been meaning to bring up on this board: They can even use not knowing why as an excuse for not making any changes. The why can take a long time, and in fact, may never be totally answered.
I know this one first hand! My W claims to have long ago worked through her “issues” with her mother’s death and the abandonment by her father. I believe that she has been able to come to terms with some of her anger (certainly not all) and process her grief. So it is true she has worked on her FOO. From HER perspective, she found a level of understanding and peace. But since she was not aware of how she treated me (or other men) she had no idea how much was still left to be processed.
So I have come to realize that processing FOO may have to be done on several layers. My W’s FOO that affects our relationship was really set in place BEFORE her mother died or her father left. But that was a natural way of life for her then so she could not see the dysfunction. The obvious problems to focus on were the more visible, traumatic events.
Take Karen’s H as another example. She says he has been to counseling and has processed a lot of the grief from his dad and brother’s suicide. I believe he has, but only enough to protect himself, and only from the needs of a single person. Now in a relationship, the deeper FOO that affects the way he interacts with others becomes evident. There was no reason for these behaviors to come out before. So after thinking about it, I occurred to me how his FOO could be wrapping around so many aspects of his life, just under the surface. So I proposed on Karen’s thread that latest theory on him. I think his FOO issues run very deep. My wife is beginning to understand the depth of her FOO too.
Just lurking along here Things are getting better here, but the journey by no means is over. Thanks for asking. Someone posted the link to Bill Ferguson's master of life site in hopefloats MLC thread: http://www.masteryoflife.com/
He talks about finding the inner issues that run your life and has a straight forward exercise that a person can go through to find the hurt and heal it.
It's interesting that Cobra said Corri was able to keep her H on topic by saying "yes, I am a B*tch, but that's not what we're talking about". If you believe what Ferguson says about our childhood issues affecting us now, you can see how a W's H calling her a B might be a trigger to bring all of those emotions immediately to the surface.. whatever the issue is from childhood "Im unlovable, worthless"... so instead of just dealing with someone thinking she's a B.. she's also dealing with all the feelings of not being loved or being worthless that she felt as a child but couldnt deal with then. By confronting "I'm a B" and making peace with that in a personal way, it loses it's power and control. The W can say "yeah, I'm a b*tch at times, but I'm a great person too, and btw I may be unloveable sometimes, but I'm also very loveable too and I can live with that.
I think working back to those core issues can definately be helpful. I've been working through some things myself so that I don't keep recreating the same patterns and reactions in my life. I've been surprised at how easily my fears and emotions can be triggered, but just having an eye on what the issues are makes it much easier to work through the emotions and see them as just that. I can think my situation with my XH is what has made me unhappy, but in order to heal and move on, I have to accept that it's not necessarily what he did/didnt do that hurt me, it's more of how I allowed it to define me that caused the pain. I.e., he cheated = I'm unloveable; he lied = I'm not trustworthy. Once I come to terms and allow myself to be loveable/loved and accept that I deserve that and that I'm worthy of being trusted, I can move on and be loved and trusted by someone. Until then, I'll keep interpreting my R problems to mean I'm all the crap I believed I was when I was too young to know the difference!
