Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[chromosphere]

But what is happening here Cobra is the money issue is becoming entangled with the affection/intimacy issue. If one member has financial problems, then you solve that problem with separate accounts, allowances, etc. But the intimacy/affection issue should be worked on without resorting to tactics that can create problems in other areas of the marriage. IMHO

Chromo

[Cobra]

Chrome,

I agree and understand, but finances is a different animal IMO. Compromising herself financially at this vulnerable time is not wise from a survival standpoint. I think this is something her H should just suffer through until the marriage stabilizes. And the bottom line is really not finances at all. I think this is just a diversion by him.

[heatherg]

Let me lay out a few more points here, things that I feel are important. First of all, separate accounts have been a way of life for us since the beginning...it is the norm. I am not about to switch from this norm at such a volatile time. Which is beside the point, because joint accounts are not what H wants-he simply wants me to pay more of the bills. $500.00/month more to be exact.
Ok, so the decision is not whether or not to mingle money. It is whether or not to pay more of the monthly expenses than he does.

Chrome, I wanted to respond to the point of revenge. I can see where H would think it was revenge to refuse the 'weighted average' method of splitting expenses. He has already said I am pulling the 'money card' on him and that I am holding money over his head. I have to refrain myself from asking him WTF?
At this point, we are more separated than married. I want to change that. Perhpas paying more of the bills will help. Perhaps it won't. He mostly seems to feel entitled, telling me I was being absolutely ridiculous for not immediately agreeing. If I take over the bills, I can't very well go back on it later. So, I'll be stuck in a situation where I pay more of the bills in a life we share where I'm not even allowed to sleep in my own freakin bed. Just great. I don't see that leading to good places for me.

Sooooo, my thoughts are to tell H that he has a fair idea, however, the timing is bad. Let's readdress at a later date, when we are acting more like a married couple as opposed to roomates.

I want to feel like I'm doing a fair thing. I feel like I'm doing the right thing for me, but is it fair?

[LustForLife]

I think that plan makes sense Heather.
You need to be comfortable doing it and if you don't think the two of you would be better off changing the finances, then keep it as is.
Like you said at least you have leverage/power there, unlike the bed situation.

[chromosphere]

Heather,

OK. I understand the situation more now. I think you are taking the right path. IMHO, you should just make the direct statement that you are willing to work on "upgrading" the marriage, but that includes ALL aspects of it. If he wants to work on finances to create a situation that is more equitable, then he should be willing to work on all other troubling aspects of your M, including those that you find troubling that he may not.

As far as the proportional payment, that really is kinda silly IMHO. Do you yourself generate a larger amount of the bills? Household necessities are shared by the whole family and thus should be split evenly. Then whatever money is left each person can then used for entertainment purposes. One would hope that many of the forms of entertainment would be jointly enjoyed, in which case the person making more money coud opt to pick up the tab more often.

I see the proportional distribution as adding a monkey to the back of your relationship that will be hard to remove later.

Chrome

[Cobra]

Heather,

I know, tell him you’ll rent your half of the bed from him for $100 a month, but that includes “services.”

Oh, and who says that once you give something, you can’t take it back? Locking yourself into this way of thinking is giving away your power, IMO. As the relationship changes, so do these kinds of arrangements. Joint checking is just one example.

[Lillieperl]

I think someone quoted Emerson on Mojo's poetry thread: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

We have to be allowed to change our minds. How else is growth possible?

[heatherg]

Well, it is much easier to refuse than to change my mind because of the power struggles in our M. He can't MAKE me pay the extra bills and more than I can MAKE him pay his share. So, if I refuse to take on the additional expenses, it is much easier than trying to get him to understand that I've changed my mind and therefore he must take the bills back. Wouldn't work I 100% guarantee it.

[Stigmata]

Heather,

I think part of what has been driving me crazy is trying to 'figure out' what H wants from me because he is not in a position to tell me himself. The problem with that is that I can never *know*. I think I'm moving more in the direction of figuring out what *I* think is right and acting accordingly without trying to predict H's reactions or lack thereof.

- You're getting a lot of good thoughts from OP from the finances discourse. I pulled this from your response to my post. Read the last line above. Bingo. Personally I believe you should apply this statement to your finances as well.

It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks or how your H feels about his own made up ideas of how you should split your finances. Goes back to the martyring yourself for OP first before you take care of self. This will be an very good test of your ability to set boundaries for H. Ask yourself what *you* think is fair for YOU first then look at it as an whole. If you're happy with your decision on what *you* think is right then present it to H, along with nice solid reasons, and don't even think about budging on this new boundary.

And, on a side note, in the event you do agree to his terms and think paying more since you make more is comfortable then I'd sure as hell would come back with, "Oh, and since I'm now paying more I will be sleeping in the master bedroom in our bed and you will be sleeping in the guest room. You are more than welcome to join me in our bed; otherwise, if not, I'll help you move some of your things to the guest room."

Seems only fair for someone who is paying more dontcha think? I do. And I'm always right.

I think I'm ready to admit that I am in fact trying to control this R and I need to stop. What do you think about that?

-- Hm, funny. And not in the ha ha way. Actually I think you don't have an clue as to how even to start to exert control on your R let alone think about trying to do so. From what it looks like to me, H, through his complete fear-based beliefs that he has no control of your R, is paradoxically the person who is in total absolute control over your R.

I think for you it's more like you are looking at an series of diferent sized hoops and are trying to figure out which one to jump through...there are so many and you have tried so many already....and are waiting for H to finally say, "ahh, yes, that's the one I meant."

Nothing to do with the *R*. There really isn't one anymore. There's just an PITA ringmaster H who cannot voice what the Hades he wants from you or what his solutions are for the future. I'll tell you why I think he's like this in a bit...

See, I think if I were to leave, he wouldn't see it as something he could have prevented. In which case, there is no reason to alter his behavior in any way because I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. He tells himself that I have all the 'power' and that he just sits around waiting for the other shoe to drop where I come and tell him I'm moving out.

- This last line. Did he voice this or is this conjecture? If you're mind-scanning, slap to hand, shame on you. But if this is what he said/believes then this is where I'm picking up from my last comment as to why he is the way he is.

He has given all of his power away to you in this R. Total. Absolutely. Willingly. Practically handing it over to you on an silver platter. The defeatist mindset. The wallowing in self-imposed helplessness out of what? Hmmmm...possibly an nonexistent self-esteem, and an lack of maturity to pick himself up from the comfort of his resentment cocoon and get the hell over it already.

This is what originally had lead me to thinking you should be more assertive in establishing normalcy in this situation. Gentle but very firm. Gentle because if you start laying down the law with hard core detachment-type *do this or else* we both know your anger will start to tweak you once he starts mashing on those buttons...along with further cementing his conviction that "Heather can do whatever the hell she damned well pleases...threatening me like this all the time."

He half expects it but doesn't see that he can or should do anything to prevent that from happening.

- ...continuing...in terms of your leaving. Yes. I understand this type of behavior. Goes back to his learned helplessness. Comes after an series of threats or bluffs usually. Conditioning. Like what I said in terms of OP who drop F-bombs every other word in normal convos. You get used to it and the jarring effect is negated the more times you hear it/are exposed to it.

"Oh, great, here we go again. Heather is once again saying if things don't change she will leave me..."

I think your H doesn't even view this ongoing threat (yes, he sees it as such it would seem) of leaving in the same light as an H who one day comes home and finds his W gonzo without prior warning or *threats*. Or, even better, an W who says once and very firmly that the next time he does such and such she's gone.

Why? Because the threat of leaving should only be used by those who are dead serious about setting that as an hard black and white boundary and are willing to follow through the instant it's uttered without hesitation. Like, say, an teacher with strong boundaries versus one with weak ones.

"There is no talking in my class. If I hear anyone utter an word I will send you to the principal's office." Kid whispers something to an giggling mate. "YOU. Out. You're gone. Anyone else want to ignore my rules?"

Whereas the weak teacher will constantly give, "I am warning you, people. If you do not be quiet I will send you to the principal. I will not warn you again so please be quiet and pay attention." (repeated another 2 or 3 times of course)

Unfortunately for everyone in your family, if you did suddenly pack up and leave the slow realization and impact that you are gone will hit him like an slow delayed punch over an period of x amount of time as the numbness from his conditioning slowly wears off. And since he's already fixated that he can't change the situation (of course since he gave all of his power away) he is setting up the "leaving" prophecy to be fulfilled quite nicely thank you. The ball is rolling...

I've stayed very close to home, made sure to call when/if I'll be late and I always make an effort to call from work as opposed to my cell. I've been in C since the very beginning and I've been the one pushing the MC and reading the books, etc. Why would I be pushing so hard to put the M back together if I was seeing someone else?!

- Said in terms of your actions to rebuild "trust." Hm, yes, no accounting for the complete irrationalityy of paranoia once your SO has strayed once. And how would you feel about wearing an ankle monitor? Yes, half-joking but it could inch there eventually the longer H doesn't start trusting you again.

If you haven't outwardly explained to H that you *for now* do the call from work thing and stay close to home blah blah as an show to prove you're trustworthy then I am willing to say H sees this behavior as *normal* Heather daily routines and the new standard. Sucks because when you think your trial period is over and you want to have a bit more freedom it freaks him out that you are "straying" once again beyond this new normal (but in fact abnormal) constrained tight-leashed daily norm.

I saw this in your wanting to go to an harmless yet possibly career-helping dinner with male colleagues. You didn't because he freaked. See? The new dinner *threat* negates your ongoing call from work, stay close to home, reading self-help R books, going to an C hard efforts. Do you see how this can be an endless loop of frustration? Each time you try and stray outside this new artificially restricted way of living it minimizes all of the conscious smaller efforts you are making in your daily life and you are always back to square one...only to begin the whole ordeal over again the next time something new comes along to push the "Heather's freedom" boundaries.

And, again, the calls, staying near home, reading, going to C/MC all turns into conditioningg, ie, "normalcy" after constantly repeating. To point where H doesn't even recognize the uniqueness of it anymore.

And that's the whole problem. This new way of "life on an leash" is not normal and it has an expiration time period as well as it needs always to be pointed out as such and understood as such; that it is abnormal; that both parties need to understand this...so it doesn't turn into the comfortable norm.

Finally, Heather, yes, by all means try and help H to GAL and get his blood flowing as well as finding outside hobbies/interests since it's spring now. Seriously. It will definitely clear his brain from dwelling type thoughts and release endorphins...any physical activity or distraction he likes to get rid of his internal stress.

He appears so powerless (voluntarily mind you) that he is rebelling against living life through passive resistance and pity-party sulking. He is hair-triggered on being *told* what to do. But nothing wrong with *encouraging* him to do something as long as you make it seem fun and/or enjoyable for you both or him alone.

Again, to me he looks like an self-hater with low self-esteem. Where when an huge part of your life goes to sh!t after your SO finds another person more attractive than you, you blame the world and feel rejected and an distant second choice after OM/OW.

Misanthrope.

And learned misanthropes hate having friends, the public, always grouse about the stupidity and worthlessness of lying, cheating, stealing blah blah people in general because there are a lot of things inside themselves they don't like/hate. Why? Why because they are people! And not aliens...although they like to act like they are sometimes.

So, Stig, now that I've clarified that this *did* in fact happen, pretty close to the way you've written above actually, do you have any new insight as to what remorse he may want from me?

- Again, I think your initial show of remorse was quite sufficient...at least to me and probably most OP. This will be your biggest boundary experiment, Heather. You may start with dividing the finances and seeing how well you stick to your guns without crumbling before you take on this one...but it is looming on the horizon.

At some point you are going to have to both lay it all out on the table. You are going to have to point blank ask him if he trusts you and if he doesn't that it is impossible for you to live with someone who cannot trust you not to hurt him again. And I mean lay it all out there. That you either will share that damned bed together like an normal loving M couple with an home and family or else you will both find OP who will love and trust you.

And tears and angry words may come and that's good too as it gets it all out from both of you once and for all.

That the suspicion, paranoia and mistrust have dragged on long enough already and you (H) have to realize that at some point very soon you can either feel sorry for yourself and drag your bitterness out for the rest of your life and ruin/break our family apart as an result or you can start getting off your a$$ and out of your funk, get over it already, start to show love for your W and join the rest of the living world with an positive outlook on life. Life's hard enough for us to have to constantly deal with the problems and pain from a past that you can't seem to let go...we have to be there for each other and our kids so we can prepare ourselves for all of life's problems yet to come....

Anyway, my 2 dollars ("I want my 2 dollars!" movie reference)

-Stigmata-

[heatherg]

HP, I knew there was a post from you that I wanted to respond to you, I finally found it.

It's good that you are reading PM; I hope you get lots of good stuff out of it!

It's definitely different than any other self help book I've read and challenges much of my thoughts on intimacy, so it's a good book for provoking thoughts and learning.

You keep stating that all you wanted was an answer to a question and you are differentiating by insisting on that answer.
However, let's look at your question:


Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------

"The way we're interacting, with you ignoring me and staying down in your room....does that mean that that you're not willing to continue working on the R?"

----------------------------------------------------------


That wasn't *the* question that started this whole thing, although your comments are still something I need to consider, I just wanted to clarify that wasn't the question I wanted an answer to. *The* question was "Hey, whatever happened to that shirt I bought for S5 with the basketball on it?" His responses to that question, even after I repeated it were "Don't worry about it".

In other words, that was an extremely controlling way to go about "asking" a question, girlfriend! There is no man, no person for that matter, who would have responded well to an inquiry phrased this way.

Really? Man, I need sensitivity training. I see what you are saying. It's like I skip steps now in my communication with H because I ASSume I know the answers to the questions where most people would start out. I do need to spend some time thinking about how to reverse that. Whenever I say things very simply in my head, I feel like it sounds like I'm speaking in a condescending manner, like to a 5 year old. Guess I need to practice some more.

if you *really* want an answer to this question, you have to put aside your own anger and resentment and make yourself vulnerable so that a real convo can ensue.

Excellent point HP. I never thought about this and never even realized that it could be true. Yikes. This could be huge for me, a huge area of improvement. I like to talk, but hide my emotions, particularly because I feel like H is going to disregard me. He never wants to converse, so eventually I started expecting that and hide my emotions to protect myself. Hmm. Self discovery.....it feels weird to realize something about yourself that you've never thought of, ya know? Thanks HP!!!! How to fix it is another story, but at least I see it.

This is a big part of the Schnarch philosophy..setting the scene so that it is the other person's buttheadish behavior that urges them into the crucible. It can NEVER be you who urges your H into the crucible. I could write that a million times over. It can never be you.

I'm not far enough in Schnarch to know what the crucible is yet....or was I just not paying attention? I'm on chapter 5. Should I know what the crucible is by now? Either way, I see your point. He needs to come to terms with whatever the issue is on his own, without my shoving it in his face. Is that close?

What about this:
"H I feel so lonely when you are not here with me and you are off in your room. I feel ignored. I'd like to start working on ways we can spend time together."

Whew. I see what you mean about being vulnerable. This would be telling him both something revealing about the way I am feeling and second that he had the power to make it happen, i.e. ignoring me is WORKING!! Nonetheless, this may be the kind of conversing I need to learn how to do....man just that one sentence scares the crap out of me. Sheesh, what does that say about me?????

Stay teflon, baby. You can do it. Shrug off his hateful words and keep repeating what your boundaries are. Do not get sucked in to his ridiculous attempts at making it All About Heather.

Thanks HP, those are really encouraging words and just what I need. When we start talking about changing the way I communicate with H and identifying when he is making ridiculous attempts to make it All About Heather, I get so freaked out because how do I know for sure what he's doing? How do I know for sure if he's truly telling me his feelings, in which case I should try to understand and validate or if he's just creating a diversion, in which case I need to make a boundary and refuse to be dragged into the conversation in the direction he tries to take it?? This is HARD.

Finally, work on making yourself vulnerable. I know it's hard because of the person he is..he'll take advantage of it, mock it, whatever. But it sounds to me like you have such a hard time being direct (with him) that you have to work yourself up to it...and the way you work it up is by phrasing it in vaguely attacking language.


This is so true. I need one on one C with you HP, lol. HELP!!

Well I could be way off, but this is what I see from an outsiders POV.

Everything you've said is right on. Now help me change it