Hi Heather You already know my feelings on the money issue and what Chrome just stated supports that. I guess I'm wondering if it is more of a gender issue. Do you have a problem being the bigger bread-winner and/or does he? Do you both work full-time?
No, I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't have a problem being the primary bread winner, but we are living as though we are emotionally separated, therefore it is *me* who does *not* want to pool our money. He hasn't asked to pool our money, only for me to take on more than half of the financial obligations because I make more.
Chrome is probably 100% right, my position smacks of lack of commitment to the M. Please give me a smackdown here if warranted, but that is the whole point. H is willing to give no emotional commitment yet still wants me to commit to supporting him in ways that I would not if we were separated. Am I making sense? It's like he's offering not commitment, but wanting commitment from me.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I see what you are saying. It is somewhat of a Catch-22. Can't have the emotional commitment without some financial/household commitment and vice versa. The thing is, if you are living as separate within the household, both financially and emotionally at this point, where does that leave the M? I know for H and myself, jumping into the financial commitment really helped us solidify the M. But you are right, we are further along in terms of having a somewhat workable M at this point. You and your H need to figure out a lot of the codependency issues and basic respect issues. I can certainly see where you would want to tackle those first before getting into joint finances. Your decision of course.
From the perspective of what Harley preaches, that couples need to be one and share things to feel inclusion, I agree with joint checking accounts. But there’s no way in h*ll I’m ever going back to that. It took me months and hundreds of dollars in overdraft fees to closedown our joint account. Up to then, fighting over finances was a MAJOR issue. I have taken complete control of my income, have paid down almost all our credit card debts, and we no longer fight over money.
My W now has a job so that is a big difference. I pay all the bills and she does what she wants with her money (usually paying for kids’ cloths and the like). Just be careful not to create a monster where there isn’t one now.
I think seperate accounts are probably smart for couples that have spending problems. Like you said, why create a monster where there is none. I think Heather said money has never been an issue in her M until now. I'm assuming neither one of them is going to abuse the financial "pot" but maybe I'm wrong there.
Lady Bird Johnson once said, "I wouldn't have a joint checking account with the Archangel Gabriel."
Having had them in the past, and having separate finances now, I agree with her. Of course, I'm not married.
I think couples should have at least three accounts, his, hers, and ours. Even if most of the money goes into the "ours," each person needs some amount of money that is theirs alone that they can spend without explanation or justification. This could range from $10 per week to <$10,000 per week depending on overall finances. JMHO.
I see no reason Heather couldn’t tell her H that she is really trying to learn how meet his wishes and opening a joint account is on her list. But at this point in the marriage, where he has such defensiveness and denial of the issues, she must consider her financial security and that of the kids. It is simply not safe right know for her to commingle funds. If he could show some clear signs that he is working on things then they can bring up this issue again. She might also ask him what his lawyer has to say about his idea?
I think Heather needs to show she is empathic toward her H, that she feels his pain, blah, blah, but she in now way should roll over and let him walk over her. He needs to know that she wields certain power, that she has certain recourse, and that in the event of a divorce, she will use those rights. Carrot and stick. Push him into his crucible.
So, then, I feel like he must want to see raw emotion from me. And I struggle with this because I think the time has past for that to occur. I don't know if it means anything significant that I struggle with the idea of being able to produce an emotional reaction at this point....maybe I should still be able to react emotionally when we discuss it, but I can't. All that has transpired these last two years have put those emotions and feelings to bed, probably forever. Does that make sense?
YES. Abso-tively Posi-lutely.
-- Heather. I'm really really glad you brought this up as it is something I have been wanting to address/clarify from earlier in your thread; especially in terms of what HP et al referred to as the "fine line" between raw emotion and needy manipulative victimhood.
I took a shot that perhaps you remain fairly stoic after the EA/A from your direct answers to OPs opinions on this web site and, to an much much lesser degree, your martial arts interests among other subtleties I've noticed. Your being down and out for 2 weeks is quite surprising to me on the sheer basis of your H's 2-year grudge response...and your comments that he still hasn't seen signs of remorse from you and he thinks you can do whatever the he!! you want and feel you can get away with it.
From my own experience having been totally duped/blindsided and cheated on I can tell you, combined with my own raw emotions the blood in my veins rapidly approached an near boil...as I thought there was an real unshakeable trust going on between us.
X let out some raw emotion in front of me and it wasn't for 2 weeks...maybe 2 hours. And I can tell you I wanted to see that woman at my feet quivering on the floor in an pool of misery for the betrayal I felt. In fact, seeing as I had a nice healthy dose of self-hatred/lothing bouncing around in my head I became even more angrier at myself for ever giving my heart over to such an worthless....well, I won't continue.
But that was raw rage and passion talking. I eventually calmed down. Her tears were enough for me to stop my freeze-out of her emotionally/physically and I realized after a lot of introspection that I was not blameless in the affair.
I think 2 weeks of your misery is plenty, more than plenty, in fact, if what you say is true. And this goes right to the heart of what I needed to clarify to LFL, HP, and Fran among any others in case of any misunderstanding about what I was saying about displays of emotion. I can't speak for Cobra.
No, I DO NOT believe that one should ever ever "force" him/herself to bring on the tears, grovel, plead et cetera if it is not congruent to how he/she is feeling at that exact time and moment. No no no. Never. That is acting. That is manipulation and I haven't seen an actor or person IRL good enough at that kind of believeability.
When I mentioned if you had shown H raw emotion I was only intending to see if you, in fact, felt these raw feelings but instead chose to bottle them up so as not to appear weak or vulnerable. This was my only intent. I thought it might help me understand how another human being can be so vindictive and hold an 2-year grudge. Believe me, I used to be able to hold an grudge with the best of them but only later did I realize it was out of my self-disgust and determination to punish myself along with the rest of the world who had done me an particular wrong.
I can tell you if x had really felt these raw vulnerable (okay not month-long groveling but close) emotions and chose to instead remain stone-faced...no tears...and wanted to get past it with an sincere apology I would have been left feeling unsatisfied and perhaps followed an similar path as your H along the lines of protracted punishment. WTF? Is that all I get? Fing Sorr-rrry." Middle finger. (thank god it didn't go there to that extent) And, yes, LFL, your sage words on the follow up actions of the cheater is also important. Hmmm, I now leave it to you, SO, to sentence yourself to the appropriate number of hours of community (read: 'Stigmata') service for your crimes.
I can say that to this day, however, I never did get an fully explained reason for the A. Just that she/they got caught up in an "game." I won't even try to lie and say I'm such an big and so self-aware zenmaster "oooh, I see how I caused this whole mess" people will be people so let's just all get along nitwit...to say even now that I don't, from time to time, get wicked resent-filled anger bubbling up to the surface over not having all of the answers.
Big difference? I don't hate myself near as much as I used to. Work in progress. Actually, to recycle my x's exact words for my own benefit:
"I love Stigmata, but I'm not IN LOVE with Stigmata."
See? And I'm even making light of that phrase that so put my heart in an blender last year...(watch it spin round to an beautiful oblivion...)
...sheesh. Anyway, my point is to show you the M side of feelings versus showings after an A.
So let's recap. There is an place and time for raw emotion, crying, and borderline heap on the floor misery; but ONLY if this is how OP is feeling inside. We have to let out whatever emotions we feel, whether personally feeling humiliating an day later or not. Otherwise you are holding back and not being ttrue to your own self and especially not being true to your SO.
And, yes, too much sobbing etc. threatens you wallowing in "woe is me."
I think 2 years has probably well distanced you emotionally, Heather, from going back there. If it comes it will come. Don't try and conjure it up. Personally I think the only way the both of you were to reach this state again is if everything is once again laid out on the table and you both lay yourself open honestly and without self or other-censorship to your raw feelings with kicking, screaming, crying blah blah without fear of what the other will think/judge.
This is why I, as an recovering self-hater, ultimately believe your H has no self-esteeem and hates himself to such an degree that he even hates the rest of the world enough to not want to have any friends or mutual outside interests with friends.
If he's not on an an an antidepressant currently, I would suggest you both consider it ASAP, along with some kind of self-esteem bolstering for H through both counseling, self-help training/reading, and applying him with whatever his love language seems to be from your perspective.
Arg. Speaking of censorship; way I operate. I don't edit and just free-flow stream...
Just work on your boundaries, Heather. Chrome nailed it from your response. You seem to feel the pull of always putting the needs of others before your own. And esp. your H's. Guilty here too. We were/are the martyrs in the martyr-user relationship.
So let's stop the madness shall we?
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Doh! I had the whole money thing backwards. Sorry bout that.
I will say (a little smackdown here), that using the money issue as a "revenge" for lack of affection/intimacy is not the right path. That will only incite a cycle of negative escalation. It is a hard thing to do, but the old mantra "I'd rather be happy than right" should guide you here.
Of course, if you suspect that he is leaning toward separation/divorce, then by all means insist on a separate financial state. But if your long term goal (both of you) is to stay together, you should resolve each issue separately. Again, I know it is hard. Its difficult being the one doing the right thing when the other is not. But that is the only chance you have. IMHO
Chrome
Last edited by chromosphere; 04/27/0605:04 PM.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I am in basic agreement with everyone on this groveling to show remorse issue. Heather has spent two years in confinement, which is long enough, her H needs to move forward, she needs to asset herself, and all the other advice given here. Reading the books, listening to counselors, watching this board, there comes into focus an understanding of the roles and behavior to which we and our spouses should strive - what are healthy boundaries and the like. All fine and good.
The problem I have experienced is that moving from a very damaged, warring, dysfunctional state to this optimal model of differentiation is not easy. Once I understood what to do, implementation was, and still is, the biggest hurdle. Heather is clearly stuck. Her H is angry and looking for vengeance. She is growing, he is not. I don’t think there is much hope in her sticking to firm boundaries, forcing him to confront himself and grow up, if he does not feel he is getting something back in return.
In my counseling sessions, we could never move forward if one had to do something alone. We had to feel each was making an equal sacrifice, or getting an equal reward or the power balance would upset. So what will be the inducement for Heather’s H? Stig’s idea of showing her deep remorse seemed to fit the bill, at least to me.
After all the discussion on this board, what we implement has to be practical. The theoretical advice needs to be twisted to fit the real life situation, or the effort will fall flat on its face. If both partners are healthy enough to understand and endure the “medicine” given, then an approach closer to the theoretical will work. But with such heavily damaged people, where raw emotion still overpowers logic, I think the appeal needs to be made on that raw level. This is just what I’ve experienced.
