I’m glad you’ve answered this issue and that’s good enough for me.
Phase3,
Sorry if I offended you but I do not offer the benefit of the doubt to someone I do not know. If Heather would have made reference to you speaking on her behalf, I would have been fine with the whole thing. I now accept your position and advice on her situation.
Chrome,
I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t think I was out of bounds. There are plenty of people to be leery of in this world. I do not think it responsible to let the other person put me in the position of trusting them first. If they come to me, then it is on their shoulders to offer proof of who they are. And until they do so, I will be very suspicious. I handle my daily affairs in this way too. There are just too many con artists, child molesters and online predators out there.
I recall last week or so some talk about some of the ladies her as young mothers and how strangers came up and picked up their child. I am not a paranoid person, don’t feel the need to always lock my car or house and place trust in those I know. But abductions do happen and once it hits you, the “I shoulda” guilt will never leave. So I don’t err on the side of this type of risk one iota. This matter with Phase3 struck me as being similar.
Stig, I feel the need to clarify that I'm not saying that women hate seeing men emotional at ALL--they just don't want to be with an emotionAL man.
When your spouse is having an affair, yeah, you're gonna bawl like a baby. That's understood. Or even if you're the cheating spouse.
But I was speaking specifically of a situation like Heather's where a long time has elapsed. No woman would want to continue to see her man weepy a long time after the fact--no matter how much we say we want to see emotion from them.
What can I say. Women are paradoxical. We say we want emotion but don't get too emotional or it upsets the natural male/female balance of things and we instinctively feel icked out...don't know why, can't explain it, but a weepy emotional man makes women feel uncomfortable.
Just wanted to say that your situation--or any extremely upsetting event--is not what I was talking about.
H.
P.S. Alpha female?? What the devil does that mean?
I hear you and understand. I guess I didn't see any suspicious intent in what Phase3 was saying, so I naturally assumed everyone else would see the same thing.
Chromo
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Where did you get that I was getting at you? LOL Seriously you were in no way the target of either the alpha male remark or the one about grovelling being a manipulative display.
I was totally with you on your reply to Cobra and just saw a little antler-locking going on between Cobra and Phase3. Anyhoo I think it looks like that is cleared up now between them. As Heather says it takes a little while to get into Cobra's style (as it probably does for many of us). I know I can come off as a little blunt sometimes. I think it is because it does take a while to read through people's threads, think about their sitches and by the time I come to compose a thoughtful reply I'm looking at the clock and think -sheesh. So I tend to cut to the chase.
I think Cobra suffers from the same thing, just says what he thinks and leaves it at that, without embellishment. But it is fine as his ratio of wise words to flannel is high
As for the stuff about being remorseful and showing it: I had not been thinking of your reply to Heather when you said you had done this yourself - so you weren't the target of that. And I think both you and Heather did this as an instintual gut reaction immediately after the event. What I was taking issue with was Cobra's (and others) idea that it would be a useful strategy as a way of re-enmeshing. In other words that someone should do it deliberately. It would just come over as phoney.
Quote: I can honestly tell you that not once during my groveling display of remorse did I think "what a wonderful person am I."
No of course you didn't Chrome. You just felt absolutely terrible. And your emotional outburst was in reaction to feeling that way. What you have to ask yourself though is "why did I feel terrible?" I am not directing this at you Chrome - not at all. I am directing it at any of us that has felt terrible about something they've done and wept and torn our shirts about it to the person we have let down. An interesting radio discussion I heard with a former nun went into the idea of guilt. In the order she belonged to guilt was discouraged. The idea being that guilt is the horrible feeling we get when we realise we are not as good as we think we are. The point is that we are human, we do make mistakes, and we are sorry for those mistakes. And that should be the end of it. We should not go around carrying a burden of guilt and remorse about it. If you do something you shouldn't most decent people either felt they were not in a position to do otherwise or hadn't really foreseen the consequences. 99% of us were not thinking heh heh heh and twirling our moustaches while we carried out the evil deed. We were just following our instincts and doing the best we could with the set of circumstances we were in. When we find we have done wrong we are remorseful, we are sorry, and we should resolve to try not to make the same mistake again. But there is no use beating ourselves up with guilt, or showing over the top displays of remorse in the hope of having that burden of guilt lifted.
So sorry if I upset you, I'll try not to do it again, and I'm not going to go round feeling guilty about it
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Oh well, I do agree with what you say about guilt ... now, anyways. But in the past I was a creature of constant guilt. That is what low self-esteem can do to you. You always see yourself as the cause of all ill around you. But my C cleared that up pretty quickly with such comments as "extreme guilt is worse than useless." He did say guilt was useful, because it helps to remind us when we do something wrong. But as you say, be sorry and move on.
Chromo
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I think the groveling approach, #1, is not necessarily wrong, but it certainly does not garner more respect than #2. It's all just words. It's the follow-up actions that count.
Really!!! That is a surprise to me. I would have thought answer #1 was no brainer because of all the emotion, feelings and empathy it could generate. Sounds like respect is high on your list….. mmmmmm, then again, maybe not so surprising from you (and that is not meant as any kind of jab).
Well, I'll take it as a compliment then. About the unemotional vs emotional responses, I don't know if more emotion from H would have made a difference. Not that he was not emotional about the whole thing, he just didn't show it so much to me. His words were heartfelt and maybe because he Wasn't all emotional, I knew he was "in his right mind" and making a well thought out decision. And he earned respect for that. He told me on several occasions however that he balled like a little baby many a night in his crappy apartment by himself. And I believe that. But he seems to be able to remain fairly "intellectual, yet meaningful" in his responses and reactions to me personally. I can respect that, as long as he is still willing to dole out some hot sex!!
From his actions, Heather's H SEEMS to be very 'not emotionally strong,' insecure and angry. I don't know you from Eve, LFL, but somehow I get the feeling you wouldn't hold your H's A over his head via not wearing your ring, keeping him out of your bed, and throwing tantrums and the like for 2 whole years.
Another poster wrote a great post about forgiveness (sorry, can't remember who right now) but it does go back to you being a strong person Youself before being able to have a strong M (I think). I ultimately chose to forgive H because it is in the best interests of all of us. An emotionally weak or insecure person would take the Mr.Heather route and hold it over her head for 2+ years. That is not Heather's fault or doing, that is his choice and I find it totally destructive. If he cannot get out of that frame of reference , the M has little hope to survive. Look, I certainly struggled for along time with my own feelings and I'm still working through some issues. But considering we have only been back together (officially living together again) since October, I think we have made amazing progress. It really was all a mental "game" and one that I feel like I am winning. IT helps tremendously that H is just a great guy and I know that about him. His horrendous mistake/decision to leave is not representative of our M. BUT, some issues are, like the SSM, so we are tackling that one now. Oh! Mojo is going to grumble when she reads this but last weekend I had H attempt the "breast O" trick. He was very apppy to oblige. Couldn't stand it after a while because while it made me super horny I jsut couldn't push it over the edge with just the boobs. But as soon as he touched me "down there" I just about exploded. So there you go. A little LFL sexual escapade for the week.
Honeypot. Oh, Honeypot; yet another alpha F. Sigh.
I agree with LFL. I would not want to see a crying wreck of a man. Most women wouldn't. I think you are confusing the fact that women want to see emotional from men, as meaning they want to see men emotionAL.
Women do NOT want to see men acting like women! It turns us off and goes against the laws of nature.
See, Honeypot knows of which I speak. We want emotion and yet it has to be the right kind, in the right setting, not too much, not too over the top, you get the idea. We're difficult to figure out. And we like to change our minds a lot too. So keep up! Honestly, I can't speak for HP, but I never have really been around men who cry easily. Don't think I've EVER seen my Dad cry and maybe H once or twice at most. It doesn't turn me off as much as I just get shocked by it I guess. Like you were saying about the F bomb though, you notice it more when it isn't doled out all the time. Hmmmm.... Too bad a swear like a sailor. Not as effective guess.
LFL: Do you do things with your H as a "couple" and spend it with other M couples? It's important to "play" together too.
No, H is very judgmental and doesn’t make friends easily nor does he want them. If we do anything with other people, it is with his family.
LFL: But your idea to stay on a friends couch doesn't really sound like it would have much effect on your H to tell you the truth. He seems to greatly enjoy getting his way even to the point of seeing you miserable
Yeah, I just thought that it would bother him having me out of the house, out of his range of sight. I thought the discomfort of that might make him change his tune.
LFL: Now, if you set the boundary that if he did not show some genuine attempts to improve the M right now (it's been two years!), then you were going to follow through on a legal separation, maybe that would have more impact? Maybe not though. Not sure what he is truly thinking, obviously.
Things will eventually have to come to this….at least if things stay at the rate they are going now.
LFL: I will state that I see a very dysfunctional/controlling/abusive M, but I coming from my own personal perspective. Have you talked about that in MC? Does the MC see your interactions as abusive?
No. I don't think it would do anything except make H defensive, particularly to use the term abusive. Our R has been abusive, I think I can say that pretty comfortably. I had a part in that as well. I don't think I need H's validation or invalidation on that point.
LFL: Not sure if you covered this yet, but is there any chance your H is having an A? Had an A?
No one has asked that before. I don’t think so. H is not a people person and I can’t imagine him even getting friendly enough with someone to exchange thoughts much less sex. But it is odd and probably unfair as well, but when I broke the trust in our M, it also made me see H in a different light. Once the bubble was burst that ‘an A couldn’t happen to us’, I became very weary of H too. I feel like there are things H has not told me about how far his porn habits go or possible strip club activity, but I have no indication or reason to believe he has ever had an A.
Phase3:
The concept of a married single is interesting and I think that some of H’s behavior reflects that concept, but only on the surface. I think the codependency theory fits better at H’s core. The married single behavior he’s displaying are basically his attempts to punish me. H used to enjoy feeling at least physically close (being in close proximity, cuddling, etc) in the earlier years of our R. So for him to be so distant all the time, I think it’s sort of like he’s trying to let me know that things are not ‘all better’. I think deep down, what drives H really is fear. I could be wrong though just as much as anyone else. I do think that H seems to have some avoidance issues, although they seem to be a reaction more than the main problem. Back in the beginning of our R, H was very smothering. I can remember him actually getting on my nerves because he was so touchy feely in a needy kind of way. Plus he didn’t like me to be with anyone but him. It wasn’t attractive. So, that is surface intimacy, which he doesn’t have a history of problems with. As another indicator that he was/is comfortable with a certain amount of intimacy, he used to disclose a fair amount about himself when we first got together, much of which he felt guilty about come to think of it. If you think it’s pertinent that he felt guilty about things, remind me later and I’ll get more into that. The avoidance issues that H seems to have seem to me to come more from fear of real intimacy with me, the kind of intimacy where you disclose your true self, your thoughts and hopes and feelings. Like I said, he did a fair amount of that in the beginning of our R, but somewhere along the lines he has become very afraid of my rejection and I imagine my A pretty much solidified that.
Phase3: I think you can avoid that by becoming a married single along with H. Just be civil and stay out of his hair and he'll like you. He'll be affectionate sometimes. If his "single" life meshes well with yours, you guys might even have a marriage that rises above tolerable.
I think I will probably try this as a last resort, prior to giving in to separation. I will probably just ‘give up’ and live my life. I am pretty much at this point now, but there are reasons I have not implemented this just yet.
Phase3: ..it doesn't seem that he sees marriage as the giving of one's self that you see it as...If he doesn't understand the "all in" version and what the benefits are (feeling really loved and important is a powerful thing), it will take a lot of work before he'll be willing to buy into it.
This was a very good point. I need to ask H what his ideas are of a ‘good’ marriage. I wonder how close or far apart our visions truly are.
Cobra: You seem to think there is good chance her H may never change and, essentially cannot be rehabilitated. That is very short-sighted and should only be reserved for the more extreme cases, like those with narcissistic personality disorder or worse.
Or maybe reserved for those that have displayed the same characteristics for years and years with no acknowledgement that they think there’s anything abnormal or unhealthy about the way they act? Perhaps like my H?
Cobra: Neither he nor she can be happy because of how the other remakes him/herself. They become happy because their internal sense of self, their confidence, security allows them to be happy by themselves only. The addition of a spouse is not a prerequisite for happiness, it is only an additional facet. As long as Heather focuses on the marriage as her source of happiness, that happiness will elude her. Her happiness can only come from within her.
This is more of Schnarch’s line of thinking. While I do think Schnarch’s principles (and I still have not read the entire book, still working on it) have a lot of usefulness, I don’t buy into them the way that you do. I don’t believe that all of one’s happiness, in a healthy person, comes from themselves. Like someone else pointed out, Chrome I think, we are social creatures. While it is beneficial to understand the concept of self soothing, I think Schnarch takes his theory of self validated intimacy a little too far. I wouldn’t be happy in a R where I could only count on self-validated intimacy. I happen to like Dr. Phil’s reference to one’s partner as being their ‘soft place to fall’. But that’s just me. And of course I understand that there are times when that cannot be, so in those instances Schnarch’s perspective is handy. But only to be used as an interim, not as a way of life in a R.
I’ll post more later.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Cobra: : Emotions are soooooo flighty and shift with the wind. One wrong word from our partner and we can suddenly throw up our defenses. The right word can bring them down, and this can be within hours or days of swearing of the other person for the rest of our lives.
There is a lot of truth in this statement, especially for me. I am emotional and I let my emotions carry me away to not so good places. Just recognizing that this happens, helps me a great deal in the heat of the moment, consciously reminding myself of this helps keep my reactions in check.
Piglet2: Hey Sheila!!! I was happy to see you pop up in my thread, it’s been a while!!
If your H merely wants to keep the M for the kids sake and not work on it and be a good H to you.. then he is basically saying he wants to be roommates, isnt he?.... Why not give him what he expects? Why not just be his roomie for awhile and let him see how that'd work.
This is sort of like Phase3’s suggestion that I become a ‘married single’ for a little while and measure the effects it has on H. This plan is definitely in the back of my mind. I think it’s a great last resort. I also love your suggestion about telling him that I’m willing to do things ‘his way’ and if he changes his mind to let me know. There will be more on this in a future thread, I can just about promise that.
I so hope you are doing well, I know how much you’ve been through and I’m pulling for you!!
Cobra: It is tempting to find fault with our spouse, for there is no shortage problems. I think everyone here, including those who have had some success, can make a complaint list several pages long. Our spouses can do the same about us. This is no secret.
I know. That brings great frustration to me sometimes. You’d think it would bring me a little peace of mind, knowing that others are in similar situations, but it doesn’t. Not at all. It’s frustrating to think that if I left this M, I could end up with similar problems in another M. At least I know what my H’s issues are
Cobra: But the right way of digging in your heels can help both partners grow, though it may seem like things are getting worse. The difference between that kind of tension and pure escalation can be hard to distinguish. But there is a very important difference. That is what Lil, LFL, Stig and I have been trying to tell you. Escalation is focused on the other person. Differentiation and proper boundaries are based on you. Keeping reading Schnarch and you will see more and more of what I mean.
This makes sense.
Cobra: Don’t you see that the key is not to expect him to EVER address your needs. You fulfill your own needs.
Like I said before, I can’t quite buy into the full extent of this idea.
Cobra: Even if your relationship were great, why wouldn’t you try to live your life in a way you want.
Because I’ve tried not to ‘rock the boat’. I know how things will affect H and because of that, I’ve not gone out with friends, in any capacity, since the A was revealed. I know that the reluctance not to ‘rock the boat’ is my problem. That is why I need to snap out of it and do the things I want to do and stop worrying about H’s reaction. That sort of flies in the face of showing remorse. It seems like a no win.
Heather, just what is a “real” answer? Who determines this and in the end, why does it matter?
Cobra, a real answer is one that actually responds to the question asked. Period, the end.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
So there you go. A little LFL sexual escapade for the week.