Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[Burgbud]

Post deleted by Virginia

[Cobra]

Phase3,

I was going to ignore your offer, but after thinking about this a little more, I am convinced something doesn’t smell right. Taking any discussion offline only raises those suspicions. So what say we keep it all out in the open, OK?

Why don’t you start by telling me a little about yourself? I assume you are male, you said you as an engineer. How about the following:

Are you married?
Do you have kids and a family whom you live with?
Why would you take such a strong interest in Heather, a mother with marriage problems as long as her arm?
Why would you bother to contact her over the phone and become so protective of her?
If you are married, wouldn’t your wife find that a little curious?
Again, just what is your agenda?

[Burgbud]

Cobra, your questions can be answered by reading my threads which are readily available right here in public. I'm not going to respond to you again in Heather's thread because at some point this needs to go back to being about her.

Heather has said that one of the things she's looking for in this forum are fresh perspectives. I already feel bad for saying as much as I have about things that happened in her sitch prior to her jumping over here. I'm willing to talk to you, one person, via email, but if anything more about her sitch is to come out in SSM, it should be from her telling it.

Provided you're willing to respect Heather's wishes, I remain open to communicating with you via email.

Feel free to say whatever you want about me anywhere you wish to say it. I will not, however, pollute Heather's thread with this any further.

[Bowtech]

"Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my
lips." Psalm 141:3

How are you doing with your speech and your behavior around your
spouse and family? How would the Lord rate you on your thoughts,
attitude and your speech while you are at home, or at work, at
church, or by yourself? Who are you really in your heart? Remember,
the Lord knows and sees everything. You cannot hide anything, so
who are you kidding?

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good
man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the
evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of
judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your
words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
condemned." Matthew 12:34-37

Are you letting your hair down in front of your children, saying
hurtful things about your spouse and family members who may be
choosing sides? Remember, your children are wounded, hurting and
are dealing with a lot of pain and fear by having one spouse gone or
hearing the arguing in your home. Should we not treat our family
better than anyone else? But do we? Listen to yourself. How do
you sound?

"May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be
pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer."
Psalm 19:14

[Jabez]

Phase3: I guess I'm not as worried about "one minute" longer as I am about "months and months" longer, but basically yes, you have your finger on my pulse.

Lillieperl: ... are you thinking that Heather has done enough and has suffered enough and NOTHING is going to get through her H's thick, self-pitying skull and she should just bail? (I'm inclined to think that myself, but she doesn't seem to be quite ready.)

Heather,

I've written this before on your thread. Last time I wrote that your postings seemed to go in cycles, now I'm getting the feeling that the posting of others are going in cycles. I remember reading something similar from NY Survivor when you were posting in the Infidelity forum.

Are you still seeing a positive change in H's behavior and attitude towards your sitch?

What is it that you have done to facilitate this?

Have you seen any negative changes in H?

What have you done to facilitate this?

Just thought you might need to focus on the basics again for a minute. Sorry I don't have anything else profound to add.

Take care,
~J

[chromosphere]

Cobra,

I seriously think you need to chill out dude. Getting into someone's face like that is not going to solve anything, and will only make parties more defensive. I know you like to "rattle the cage", but sometimes tact and forebearance is in order. Listen, I'm not trying to rain on your parade, step on your toes, or whatever other metaphor works. I just think attacking Phase3 based on reading between the lines (we all should by now know how dangerous assumption is) is not helpful to anyone involved.

Peace,

Chromo

[karen1]

Heather,

There is a lot of discussion going on that has to do with "your best interest" and "on your behalf". What do you think of all this? Did you take what Lillie, Stigmata and Cobra have said to be gospel? Do you have the ability to glean the wheat and discard the chaff?

We all provide discussion, food for thought and even some pretty direct advice but our ability to perfectly read the situation of someone we know only through their writing is limited. Nonetheless, I have learned a lot here, have been called on a lot of self defeating thoughts and behavior and have found my participation very valuable.

Phase,

I am going to suggest that despite phone convos, bulletin board convos etc... YOU may not have the grasp on Heather's sitch that you believe you do. By the very nature of your now personal relationship with her (when you take it off line it becomes personal) your views will be colored by your friendship with her. You want to protect her and that is admirable but remember, she alone is responsible for her life.

Karen

[haphazard]

Do I detect a little alpha male stuff going on here?

Never mind

A couple of things I feel moved to say.

I really don’t buy into the idea of the grovelling emotional remorse thing doing the trick over straightforward sincere apology. Couple of reasons
1) Some (many) people can read this as Oscar-winning stuff that is done to let the person off the hook as soon as possible as the other can surely see that they are TRULY remorseful.
2) This kind of self-flagellation is really quite narcissistic. What it is saying is “oh my God – I behaved in a terrible way, how truly dreadful, how can that be, how can such a wonderful person as myself have possibly done this dreadful thing. In other words “I” (my ego) thought I was better than that and my ego is insisting I put on this display of remorse so that I can rehabilitate myself in your eyes.

In another post to Heather I talked about forgiveness and why Heather’s H cannot possibly move forward until he can learn to forgive her. I still hold this to be true and it is related to the remorse thing – she cannot possibly (it is not in her power to) show enough remorse to her H. It is in his power to forgive her.

So what can Heather do? She can forgive him. She can forgive him every minute of every day, for the things he did way back when which eventually led her to seek solace outside the M, for the things he has been doing since the A, for the things he did when she tried to get back in bed, for the shirt thing, for everything. Every single time she feels hurt by his words or actions (either by recalling past ones, or something in the present) she should just say to herself “I forgive you”. It is very powerful. She also needs to forgive herself. Every time she feels wrong or guilty or bad she needs to forgive herself. One of the main reasons their M appears to be stuck is Heather’s acceptance that she deserves some of this.

Fran

[chromosphere]

"Do I detect a little alpha male stuff going on here?"

Not from me, I'm an iota, or maybe a Xi (like how that one sounds).

"What it is saying is “oh my God – I behaved in a terrible way, how truly dreadful, how can that be, how can such a wonderful person as myself have possibly done this dreadful thing. In other words “I” (my ego) thought I was better than that and my ego is insisting I put on this display of remorse so that I can rehabilitate myself in your eyes."

I can honestly tell you that not once during my groveling display of remorse did I think "what a wonderful person am I." Nor did I feel like I was better than that, or felt like groveling was rehabilitating myself in any way. In fact, it took a self-esteem counselor to make me stop constantly bashing myself about my EA.

I do belive some groveling displays are acts, but some of us guys (and gals) do get overwhelmed at times. I will agree that it is not an effective way of dealing with a situation, and I should strive to never do it again. But it was not an act of narcissism or manipulation on my part.

ChromoXi

p.s. sorry if this is polluting your thread Heather

[heatherg]

I wonder about your agenda. You say you only personally know her through a conversation. Did you two meet on one of the DB boards? If so, you are just an internet acquaintance right? So what is your vested interest? Perhaps she struck a cord with you, but if so, there is some need within you that Heather may be filling. So how do we know your intentions are true?

Let me start of by saying that I am EXtremely appreciative for every one of you...I have read these posts and I am incredibly grateful that so many take time out of their own lives and problems to offer me suggestions. It truly warms my heart to know that people can care about others that they have never even met.

With that being said, I would hope that no one gives another single thought to what Cobra seems to be implying with the above line of questioning. Phase3 has been around my thread since nearly the beginning and he was supportive at a very, very volatile time in my R with H. Cobra mentioned that I need to grow emotionally and I 110% agree. I have grown tremendously since I came here, although I concur I still have a long ways to go.
What helped me back in the beginning were people like Phase3 who took the time out of their days to tell me that I wasn't crazy and that doing what I had done shouldn't mean I have to resign myself to a lifetime of being treated badly. I felt so guilty and I was in the Affairs forum (which is a tough place to start out if you're a cheater ) and I was reading through how hurt people were by what their partners had done and I didn't know how much of the treatment I was getting from H I 'deserved'. I truly didn't know and I still struggle with that today. Phase3 is a friend, an empathetic friend, and he hasn't even been around in months. So, to say I have somehow filled a need for him, that need must be pretty sporadic. Maybe he's back for his fill

Again, I appreciate everyone. One of the reasons I liked this forum so well was because of the openess and directness of the people here. I do not think that anyone needs to qualify everything they say with "IMO", etc. When I first came here, I had to make an attitude adjustment toward Cobra's postings at first because they do come across as authoritative and I did in fact feel threatened because he seemed so sure he had the answers. But I don't feel threatened anymore, I am getting a feel for his personality and I understand that's just who he is. Knowing who I've been emotionally since I've come to these boards, I understand P3's concern that anything offered up as 'the way' would make me feel even guiltier if I couldn't pull it off. Which has totally been the case with me in the past, so he is right on.
The good news my friends is that I AM growing. And I get it more and more every day. I am just beginning to understand that there is no 'the way'.....there is only 'my way' and that is being developed with all of your help. I can agree or I can disagree....even with H. And that's ok....it doesn't make me 'wrong', which was my first conclusion 'back then'. That is one of the biggest lessons I've learned and I owe so much of that lesson to people like Phase3 because they were the first to assure me that I was in fact, sane. Each thread I create, with all of your help, reinforces that and gives me new thoughts and ideas to apply to my M and to myself.

This board gies me more than you guys realize, so again, thank you.