Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[Burgbud]

It seems like you are very concerned that you could be making an error in our analysis and recommendations.

I'm concerned that sometimes the analysis and recommendations are being presented as if there could be no errors.

All I can say it that what she is doing does not seem to work.

I totally agree. I can also tell you that Heather hasn't been trying only one thing for the past two years. Progress, thus far, has been hard to come by. But yes, it's certainly time to try something new. But sometimes it seems to me that the ideas are being sold as "The Answer" instead of "a different approach".

There is as much risk in taking no action as there is in taking the wrong action. But the advantage in taking the wrong action is that you get to rule out one theory.

I'm in total agreement.

So what is it you are really worried about?

Heather has already shown a proclivity to blame herself for problems in her M (hence the title of many of her former threads..."Learning To Trust Myself"). I'm worried that if theories, analysis and recommendations are presented very authoritatively and/or with great confidence in their eventual success, she'll apply herself longer than is healthy.

[Stigmata]

Stigmata said:

On some level it seems to me H respects Heather's desire for him not to drink. To me that's an form of love...and, <shock!> respect.

And you may be right. I know Heather has reason to suspect he changed in the first place and doesn't dive right back into the bottle now because his lawyer advised him that to do so would greatly endanger his case for sharing custody of the children.

- Ah, now see? This is more information, albeit unfortunately from an unverified 3rd party and not from Heather's H, whom I will defer to every time for his reasons for quitting. And I purposely said "on some level," which gave me the leeway not to pinpoint something with which I have zero personal connection or knowledge. And seeing as I said that's "some form of love and respect" I guess we could say this form would be self-love and respect for his lawyer's advice--removing Heather from the equation altogether; which, yes, I would find quite surprising and saddening if true.

If what you say or, I should say, by proxy Heather "suspects" (suspects?) is true then the level H is running on is the level of self-preservation and legal maneuverings. And if her H's main goal for sobriety is not wanting to hurt his own chances for shared custody that pretty much tells me he is not interested in saving this M. CYA$$$ does not strike me as an solution-based approach.

But, again, I cannot presume to know what is in H's brain.

I don't know you at all, Stig, but I wonder a bit when you project how you think you *might* be if you had a certain condition (that for all I know you don't actually have) onto Heather's H. And from there to determine that H's actions are a form of love and <shock!> respect.

- See above. Also see "seems." And note that nowhere do I say anything to the equivalent of I "determined" as what might be the impetus to H's behavior. Nope. I'm not omniscient; although if I were I sure as hell wouldn't be on this web site. LOL. Pretty dead giveaway.

Two choices here. IMO, Either an alcoholic quits for him/herself and/or she/she quits out of respect for (an) loved one/ones. In the latter case the loved ones usually encourage the sobriety via hard boundaries along with the alcoholic's own sense of respect for those boundaries. Yep, that's an form of respect.

It could well be that I'm just overly sensitive but these are the things that worry me. I think there's a pressure that goes along with, "I'm sure your H loves and respects you". I don't think any of us have a good grasp on what H thinks or how he feels.

- If you're getting this vibe from me please note that you're projecting your worry via placing words onto me here. I am pretty sure I never said "I amm sure..." (LOL "pretty sure" no pun int.; can't even be dead certain of my own words let alone others' LOL) Nor do I remember reading OP stating things with such certainty.

Your last line. Hmmm, I thought I was pretty clear in my other posts I do not have an brain scan device that would give me an view into H's thought or emotional patterns. Again, last line. Not only do I not have an "good grasp on what H thinks or how he feels"

I have no grasp.

.

-Stigmata-

[Lillieperl]

Phase3, I've been trying to figure out why you're on such a hair trigger about this dialogue with heather, and I think a few minutes ago, a light bulb came on over my head.

Is this your position: Heather is like a person with cancer who's been to the big cancer hospitals, and has tried everything, and to you we seem to be the makeshift clinic in Mexico run by ex-hippies who claim to have The Cure, and if you just suck on cactus thorns while chanting "om" and standing on your left foot under a full moon, the disease will be completely cured?

Are you afraid she'll use the suggestions (and truly that's all they are) we're making will keep her in this soul-crushing marriage one minute longer than necessary?

Here's where the analogy breaks down... are you thinking that Heather has done enough and has suffered enough and NOTHING is going to get through her H's thick, self-pitying skull and she should just bail? (I'm inclined to think that myself, but she doesn't seem to be quite ready.)

And when I said the important thing is "what works," I DON'T mean by "working" -- to necessarily save the marriage. To me a thing that works is a thing that brings her peace of mind, makes her feel like she made a good decision, moves her one step closer to being her own person who can stay in the marriage or leave the marriage, but in either case, do what she wants to do for her own good and the good of all parties involved (insofar as she has any control over others' welfare, and that is questionable, as true control can only be exercised over ourselves).

I don't think her husband's motivations matter as much as you do. Cobra and stig were speculating on his motives for her benefit, but the only thing that matters to me when we're talking to heather is how heather is, what she wants, what she feels, what she will and won't put up with, what will help her make the best decision for her. We DON'T know what's going on in his head and as long as he hides behind statements like "I don't know whether I love you," what is going on inside his head does not belong on the table (yuck-- there's a picture).

So... the hippie clinic does not promise a cure for cancer or a bitter husband who has decided to punish his wife forever, but it does offer* a cure for an indecisive woman who wants to feel good about whatever decision she makes. We don't want her to keep barking up this unresponsive tree. That's why we keep telling her not to engage in these defensive battles.


__________________
*Her-- and your-- mileage may vary.

[Stigmata]

LFL-

Okay, before I get enmeshed (hardy har) in an differences in personality issue, I would not presume the groveling approach is suited to an M or F who is fully self-actualized, strong (despite being codependent), and who hates when his/her SO is overly emotional and who can look at the cheater and be fine with his/her own decision of either staying or walking.

Sooo, to pull this back around to the thread. From his actions, Heather's H SEEMS to be very 'not emotionally strong,' insecure and angry. I don't know you from Eve, LFL, but somehow I get the feeling you wouldn't hold your H's A over his head via not wearing your ring, keeping him out of your bed, and throwing tantrums and the like for 2 whole years.

And your point on subsequent actions follow-through is well taken. There is no such thing as an truly remorseful verbal etc. response without a long period of proof in the pudding to follow.

Honeypot. Oh, Honeypot; yet another alpha F. Sigh.

I agree with LFL. I would not want to see a crying wreck of a man. Most women wouldn't. I think you are confusing the fact that women want to see emotional from men, as meaning they want to see men emotionAL.

Women do NOT want to see men acting like women! It turns us off and goes against the laws of nature.

- I think for an strong F this is true in the event the M has an tendency to be overly emotional; otherwise I guess after I uncovered the A I transformed into an woman.

<Stigmata hangs head in shame>

"Does that skirt come in extra tall?"

I'll put it this way. Of the 15 years x had known me as friend or lover I have displayed this kind of emotion (ie, tears and crying) exactly once. And I've had various parts of my body laid open and stiched back up and bones smashed and reset without as much as an tear shed. Couldn't account for the feelings of an exploded heart. I'm pretty sure when x saw these "abnormal" streams of water coming from my eyes she realized the impact it had on me.

Thankfully I wasn't an cheater. But I can imagine likewise. If I had done something so stupid as to lose her forever via cheating then I feel she would have known deep in her heart that my shocking vulnerability groveling display pretty much signified the depth of my remorse, since it would be an unusual display of emotion.

If I were just to channel my earnestly saying I'm sorry, it will never happen again so why don't we just start from scratch robotic self without any show of distraught emotion I wouldn't be surprised if she questioned the depth of my remorse. Heck, I would have to even question my own feelings for her at that point if I could maintain such an strong even composure.

I'll use this example. IRL I rarely ever can be heard to curse out another person. It is intentional on my part. All you have to do is listen to, say, an rapper being interviewed. Drops F-bombs every other word like it's nothing and numbs the listener to them eventually.

Why I do this. Well, first I don't like being unnecessarily crass in public; second, when I choose to use them it sends an message.

When I unload an F-bomb on someone who knows me pretty well IRL they instantly know beyond an shadow of an doubt that my line has just been crossed and they'd better duck and cover his/her a$$ for the impending flash and mushroom cloud

:

-Stigmata- (50 megaton mushroom-cloud layin' MFer, Mfer!) (for all of you Pulp Fiction fans)

[Stigmata]

I'm concerned that sometimes the analysis and recommendations are being presented as if there could be no errors.

- (????)

I won't speak for others but I hope this is not how I am coming across. If so, I need to rethink my approach. I've purposely used an lot of IMOs and "To me"s the deeper I explain and it gets tiresome frankly. Perhaps I need to use more..

I totally agree. I can also tell you that Heather hasn't been trying only one thing for the past two years. Progress, thus far, has been hard to come by. But yes, it's certainly time to try something new. But sometimes it seems to me that the ideas are being sold as "The Answer" instead of "a different approach".

- Seriously? Hmmm. At least for me, I thought I was presenting them as possible approaches. I don't have all "the answers" or any for that matter--especially as it pertains to my own life, let alone OPs, that's for sure.

Heather has already shown a proclivity to blame herself for problems in her M (hence the title of many of her former threads..."Learning To Trust Myself"). I'm worried that if theories, analysis and recommendations are presented very authoritatively and/or with great confidence in their eventual success, she'll apply herself longer than is healthy.

- I find your sense of protectiveness for Heather quite admirable Phase 3. I have to say, though, that I also find your protectiveness as to how she may feel or respond to others' insights to be a little presumptuous. No offense P3.

Heather, again, as I've told OP I must apologize in advance for evoking any type of feelings in you that I am talking "around you." I think perhaps many others here feel the same way whenever someone presents their one-sided, very biased stories. From your posts I have deduced pretty much that you have no problem speaking your mind nor telling OP exactly when they are right, lukewarm, or way off base. I've read as much from your posts--you are the ultimate authority.

And I know you are about to come back on this thread and speak your mind.

Which leads back to you P3. Hmmmm...that's 2x I have seen you mention voices of "authority." Sorry. That is you handing your power over to whomever you are speaking of. I am not only an authority on human behavior but never presented myself as such. Bit of power projecting going on there IMO. I am not confident of any outcome. Sheesh, I can't even figure my own sh!t out. Just trying to stimulate some solution-based approaches along with OP here; and, based on the activity in this thread I think it's working--clipping along in an positive solution-based direction with a lot of feedback.

I've seen other BBs out in cyberspace where the people congregating there merely vent and feed off each others' negativity. Blech. Negative enabling pity-party support groups.

IMO not an healthy frame of mind.

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

I, Stigmata, said,

And note that nowhere do I say anything to the equivalent of I "determined" as what might be the impetus to H's behavior.

I, Stigmata, said in earlier post,

After all, I am certain
he feels like if anyone you should be the one who needs the therapist...since you lost your mind and went outside the M to have your needs (I prefer the
word "wants") met.

- ROTLMAO. Thought I'd save you some time Phase 3. Lookit me getting all in the head of Heather's H. Mmmm this big shoe tastes...blech, nevermind. . I meant this in an different sort of tone (lighter than sarcastic but in that area hmmm) that I can't even explain frankly. Shrug.

In other words I was giving an possible reason for the behavior. I could but I don't think making an script that inserts "IMO" in front of every sentence would be TOOO freakin' annoying.

"Certain." Mumble-mumble.....mental note to use "suspect" in future and maybe watch the tone.

(still I SUSPECT Heather's H MIGHT view the need for MC as as result of her behavior and not his own. Won't give that up so easily Not an stretch considering the post A problems IMO)

Aw, screw it, everyone just assume anything coming off my keyboard is one big-a$$ed IMO. Don't want to feel I'm obsessing over semantics instead of just trying to get an possible positive solution or different point of view across.

Hmmm, what's this an floor covered with hollowed out eggshells? I need to get to the other side. Let me try and...tip....toe....

Aw F it...

MASH-MASH-MASH-STOMP-STOMP-STOMP...



-Stigmata-

[Burgbud]

"There are no guarantees that anything will work or that what we say won’t make things worse. It is up to Heather to do what she thinks best."

"So... the hippie clinic does not promise a cure for cancer or a bitter husband who has decided to punish his wife forever, but it does offer* a cure for an indecisive woman who wants to feel good about whatever decision she makes."

"I don't have all "the answers" or any for that matter--especially as it pertains to my own life, let alone OPs, that's for sure."


Y'all are good folk. I apologize for being overly sensitive.

[Lillieperl]

everyone just assume anything coming off my keyboard is one big-a$$ed IMO

All of us already do assume that, Stig, about you and about each other. I don't think Phase has been around us enough to be familiar with the way we all spout off theories we've read up or made up and thrown them into the pot for stirring. We don' mean nuthin' by it.

Last year sometime, someone who doesn't post here anymore used to jump on every other thing I said, so I started putting disclaimers on everything, i.e., "just my opinion," "from my experience," "not carved in stone," etc. Sometimes I would even put a paragraph at the beginning with the word "Disclaimer." I think chrome and Lou both called me on it and said that it wasn't necessary. But I was gunshy after certain people repeatedly overreacted to my statements and saw malice and stupidity in my posts when there was none.

Anyway, you're not overbearing, you're not coming on too strong... clearly you accidentally hit a hot button of Phase's, probably as you pointed out, in the direction of being overprotective of heather. Getting inside heather's head, as it were, and predicting that she would follow our suggestions blindly. I think heather is desperately grasping at straws, but I understand her wanting to try anything and everything.

Nighty-night!

[Burgbud]

(Lillieperl) Is this your position: Heather is like a person with cancer who's been to the big cancer hospitals, and has tried everything, and to you we seem to be the makeshift clinic in Mexico run by ex-hippies who claim to have The Cure, and if you just suck on cactus thorns while chanting "om" and standing on your left foot under a full moon, the disease will be completely cured?

Wow. You know me better than I know myself. Nice work.

Are you afraid she'll use the suggestions (and truly that's all they are) we're making will keep her in this soul-crushing marriage one minute longer than necessary?

I guess I'm not as worried about "one minute" longer as I am about "months and months" longer, but basically yes, you have your finger on my pulse.

... are you thinking that Heather has done enough and has suffered enough and NOTHING is going to get through her H's thick, self-pitying skull and she should just bail? (I'm inclined to think that myself, but she doesn't seem to be quite ready.)

I agree she isn't ready and I think it's very important that one be quite ready before they take that step. I'm far from sure that NOTHING is going to get thru H's thick skull but I believe the possibility of that is very real.

I was trying to think back if there was anything that really set me off and got me looking for trouble where perhaps none exists. The thing that came to mind, and I don't remember who posted it, was the notion that maybe 'A' time is like dog years, and 2 years of real time is like 2 months of 'A' time. I puckered quite a bit at that, which gets back to the notion of "hasn't she done enough and suffered enough?" Are we really going to say: well, that's really only suffering for 2 months in H's eyes? I'm not saying a valid point wasn't being made. I'm just saying that may have jaundiced my view a bit.

[Cobra]

Phase3,

I see no need for any of us to defend ourselves regarding the credibility or reliability of our advice. The quality of the discussion here speaks for itself. Stig stands out in the caliber of his thoughts. I personally see not need for him to defend any parsing of his words. Furthermore, this is a public forum and no claims are made to the quality of the advice. We are all laypeople in this relationship field, but had done plenty of learning and our own experimenting. This is no secret on any of the DB boards.

I believe everyone who has posted on Heather’s thread has only the best of intentions and has been completely honest in what they have told her. It is up to her to decide if this is so. Heather is a big girl and capable of handling herself. She also has a counselor to help her. She writes well, conveys her thoughts is an organized manner. I have no reason to think she is impaired in any way. Do you know something we don’t?

Two years of stalemate in her situation may bring into question some of the other advice she has received. On the other hand, this is not an unusually long period for a couple to be struggling with relationship problems. How long do you think it should have taken to “fix” this marriage? In fact, how do you judge the quality of the advice given? You are concerned she might follow some advice for too long. How do you make this determination? How do you distinguish good advice from bad?

Like Stig, I wonder about your agenda. You say you only personally know her through a conversation. Did you two meet on one of the DB boards? If so, you are just an internet acquaintance right? So what is your vested interest? Perhaps she struck a cord with you, but if so, there is some need within you that Heather may be filling. So how do we know your intentions are true? I remember Monica Lewinski thought Linda Tripp was her friend at one time.

You may not be doing her any favors by talking for her. I think Heather needs to grow emotionally, detach and stand on her own two feet. The last thing I think she needs is to hide behind someone else. Sure she needs a support network, but from what she says, I think she already has that. Do you have a support network?