"I DID grovel when I revealed the affair. I DID fall down on the floor crying. I shook. I rocked back and forth to keep myself somewhat calm at work. I told H I was sorry a million times and that I would make it up to him. If groveling was what he wanted to see, he wanted it for a lot longer than two weeks. Because I was down, and I DO mean down, for about that long."
I could have easily written that Heather. The only exception being that my W responded by not wanting to talk about it, kinda shove it under the rug approach. I am letting her face it in her own way, she has 3 or 4 times asked a short question about it, and I have answered honestly. I don't know which is worse of the two extremes though. Not knowing how she really feels about it, or if it will explode later troubles me.
But I did fall on the floor crying. I revealed the EA to my W the night before I started classes, and not crying or breaking down while lecturing the next few days was one of the hardest things I have ever done. I had the added problem that the impetus for revealing the A was OW "dumping" me that night also. So I had the shame of the A, the double feeling of rejection from my W and OW, and the shame that I wasn't "man" enough to stop it on my own.
I know exactly how hard those 2 weeks were for you, and I really feel for you. Even 2 years later for you, and 6 months later for me, that period of time still resonates in my heart and gets me down on occasion. I hope you have found a measure of peace that I am still attempting to acheive.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Stig, your posts are always so long. But usually have lots of good stuff in 'em.
- I know on the length. Esp. my night posts when I have more time. Plus my head tends to parallel process multiple issues so I'd rather build an long multiple-layered post less often than engage in single issue multiple post back and forth "tennis" with OP. I would do the latter if I had the time or patience to sit on this web site...but I don't.
My occasional day posts are usually shorter because I'm juggling RL.
I just wanted to maybe point out that we need to distinguish between "love" and "codependence". You sort of looked to several different points to "prove" that her H really loves her but most of those points simply supported their continued codependence/undifferentiation than "love".
- I don't consider these 2 issues to be mutually exclusive. I was involved in an codependent R yet there was plenty of love there on both sides. It's hard for me to rationalize someone being in an codependent long term R with another person without there being some sort of mutual "feelings" there whether it be "soul mate" type love on one end of the spectrum or :we got drunk and got married at the shotgun chapel in Vegas and enjoy each other's company" type love on the other end...especially with the bond of M and children thrown into the mix.
So I guess you could argue what really is love. Nothing her H has displayed looks like love to me. I'm not saying he is doing it purposefully to hurt her, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking he is showing love to her.
- I have absolutely no idea what Heather's H feels for her in the love department. Could be the type of love you have for your dog, your grandmother, sisterly love or the "soul mate" love of which I referred. Shrug. Maybe I'll borrow Karen's Superscanner Jr.
And likewise I have absolutely no idea how he chooses to show his love to OP; too far outside my realm of consideration. Double shrug.
I will say this, however, just based upon looking at his outward actions within their R. It would seem to me if H truly had no love for Heather he would dive right back into getting drunk, enjoying his lack of inhibition with his tongue, and making Heather's life miserable by forcing her to have to deal with him.
He fought his addiction and has remained sober in the face of massive resentment. I find that amazing. If I had an addictive personality to alcohol and harbored such resentment over an A I think I would be hard pressed not to dive right back into the bottle for comfort, pain relief, and blowing my stack with my newly loosened, albeit slurred, tongue.
On some level it seems to me H respects Heather's desire for him not to drink. To me that's an form of love...and, <shock!> respect.
I also think you were way off on this comment: I don't see you as an F who would collapse to the floor in tears and beg H for forgiveness and pleadings of sorrow after he discovered your A. If my thinking is right on this I think if you had done such with an display of total vulnerability at the figurative feet of your H back then his current attitude would be much different and he would have been satisfied that was the remorseful behavioral display he still seeks from you today. Are you saying her groveling for forgiveness would help this mess? I think that just perpetuates their codependent power-play interactions. It's like saying a man who beats the crap out of his W and then begs for forgiveness, must really love her. Or even worse, the fact that they stay together in that R proves they really love each other.
- Correct. I was way off in terms of Heather's sitch. But don't feel I'm way off in general. Here's why:
When 2 people are so fused into one reality and one strays from that reality with an A and explodes it...the hurt partner is left feeling his/her entire existence to that point was one big joke/sham since the cheater was obviously an "fraud." Yes, highly dysfunctional.
Therefore, an extreme reaction of remorse and sorrow is often warranted--an reaction way out at the end of the specturm to counter the codependency, which is way out at the opposite end of that specturm. Extreme display for an extreme dysfunctional state. And the only person who decides when is enough will always be the one who has been cheated on.
I like to shift perspectives. So say you're an F who is totally enmeshed with an M. Your whole life is about him it seems and your R. Boom You discover he's had an affair with another F. Your whole view of yourself and your R is demolished since you were as one and there was no way he would ever dump you for another. Total shock.
So H reacts in one of 2 ways.
First way:
The tears start flowing from his eyes. he actually shakes and cries. Pleads for you not to cut him out of your life and apologizes profusely, calling himself stupid blah blah blah, and implores you to try and find int in your heart to forgive him and that he will never do it again.
This is extreme vulnerability (esp. for an manly type M) and sticking a neck on the line to be chopped off. Yes, in other cases it's used for manipulation, BUT IMO that happens primarily in those unhealthy Rs where the M-F resorts to these theatrics after "screwing upp over and over again ad infinitum.
This emotion-filled display of vulnernability is an one-shot deal in an R IMO.(esp. for the less outwardly emotional Ms) You cannot go to this well multiple times as if you do you are not remorseful at all...but rather an controlling manipulative btch/ba$tard.
Second response:
Your cheating H is fairly stoic and apologizes. Not many tears, if any. He asks you for forgiveness followed by an request that you try and get past it. Is truly remorseful but feels showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness and lack of self-respect.
Which response gives you the feeling that H is really hurting inside for what he has done to coincide with the immense internal pain you are feeling in the midst of your enmeshed codependent distorted view of reality?
Hope I'm not coming off too harsh.
- Never. I can handle any responses ranging from intelligent disagreement to abject vicious personal attacks/insults on me because I don't give my power away to OP IRL or VL--especially strangers on the Internet.
Doesn't mean I'm not humble when OP point out that I am way off base. I readily admit to my mistakes and shortcomings when OP show that I am in error and thank them internally and/or externally for helping me to recognize and come back "on base."
I just find the word "love" thrown around so easily that I wonder if we will justify any and all behavior on a S part, because they are M and must therefore be showing love for each other. Not all R/M are really built on love. And beyond love, lots of R/M are not even built on respect.
- I like to throw that word/feeling around whenever I can IRL and the easier the better. But I know what you are saying.
I think the Rs you describe that have low/no love and/or respect are in the minority. For me, if I find myself in such an R I'm getting out of it ASAP if either one of us truly feels this way. Life's too short to be with someone who neither loves nor respects you. Seeya.
BTW, I do not "justify" any of H's behavior towards Heather on the basis of his "love." (I know you were being general here.) He is being childish, punishing, and arrogantly obstinate like someone who is totally insecure and self-hating. But I will not indict him for being an horrible person. I think he's lost in an fog and doesn't know how to find his way out.
The level of codependence in Heather's M is obvious. I think BOTH of them need to GAL. You sort of told her that detachment would just create more "paranoia" in her H so she shouldn't do that. I feel an complete GAL detachment while still living under the same roof is only going to aggravate his paranoia. Don't you think this is also playing into their codependency. His "paranoia" is not her issue. She cannot be responsible for his feelings, right? And vice versa.
- I think the length of my post caused you to misread what I wrote. If you go back you'll see that I did not say for Heather not to GAL and detach. I said an complete hard core detachment at this stage in their dysfunction will drive his paranoia stemming from his ongoing resentment. IMO you can't rip it off like an Band-Aid on this one.
I said she might think about lovingly and congenially detaching. Not engaging in his baiting her into arguments and controlling her angry retorts for starters. But to GAL by all means without leaving him in the dust as it seems to me H has zero GAL interests at this point.
This web site and the MWD mantra for this type of solution-based approach seems to be "Baby Steps."
Cobra made a great point that she should be living her life the way she wants whether she is M or not. And I don't mean a mariied single, I mean that she should be an independent person FIRST and then bring that healthy independence into the M. Her H should do the same. They clearly have a long way to go to even starting that journey.
- Yes and what I said as well. She has an career, hobbies, friends...wants to have her own identity. She is doing an good job considering but sometimes holds herself back out of fear over whacking H back to square one. Likewise I said H has zero identity or seeming personal goals for self-actualization, personal (maybe career too) ambition, or an diverse network of friends.
And this goes right to what Phase 3 has just posted about his fears that one person cannot change an R dynamic in many cases. Of course, it's what MWD preaches over and over again in DR and DB. Sometimes one person can change the R overnight; sometimes it's months/years later; sometimes it never happens and the R is over.
The point is the person who GALs ends up an much healthier person to cope with either outcome.
Yeah, so much for the length. Not like I have an life or income to generate. Dagnabbit, LFL, I hold you personally responsible
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I've almost filled Heather's thread with enough discourses not aimed directly at her so I'll stop after just one more. Really. I mean it this time.
You're completely mistaken if any of us here think that doing this or that will produce a predictable response in our partner.
Excellent. There have been times I have wondered so I'm glad for the reassurance.
Counseling is not some punishment that you submit to as a penance. It's not like being sent to the principal's office where you will get your knuckles rapped. Holy moley, is that what people think in the other forums?
I think you kind of went off into the weeds on that one. Why was the counselling different from any of the other things I said she didn't owe him? Why the shot at people in other forums? If you're as wise as some credit you with being I know you aren't prone to generalizing the thoughts of everybody else in every other forum based on a post or two from *me*.
To keep her dangling for two years is insane... but if you read Stig and cobra, you'll get some insight into why he is prolonging this insanity.
Okay, this is exactly the kind of thing that scares me. When I read Stig and Cobra I get insight into why they think he's prolonging this insanity. They haven't talked to him, met him, or even seen him (nor have I). It seems a bit presumptuous to be certain they understand his motivations. That's a "one size fits all", "if it worked for me it'll work for you" mentality. But as long as they have useful theories and problem solving approaches, their input is more valuable than mine, so keep it coming. Please.
In fact, your litany about how heather doesn't "owe" her H anything-- where in the heck does THAT come from?
I could explain where that comes from but as much as I enjoy flogging a dead pony, I won't. I agree with your bottom line that it's about what works.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Quote: But Lillie: this is where I get tripped up. When she's motioning me to join her in the wrestling pit, and I refuse, then I get accused of not communicating, or withdrawing, or not wanting to resolve things.
What then?
- To folow up the good response by Lillie. Words that stood out for me. "Communicating" and "not wanting to resolve things." uttered by W.
So from your metaphor W's forum is the wrestling pit with W standing there with a fake-bake tan in an tight singlet, grasping the ring microphone and with bulging veins something like, , "Who wants what The W is cookin'?!" And calls Hair Dog out while the rest of the spectators chant something about "cookin' the dog."
Um. These words and your metaphor tells me this is her chosen forum to discuss your R/life issues. Lotsa anger and wrestler-type insults tossed about.
She is trying to steal your frame. Don't let her.
If there truly is something that needs to be communicated or an problem resolved, HD, then I would counter her baiting to an more appropriate forum of either your own or an more productive mutual metaphorical design.
...Say two podiums on an stage with 2 microphones and an intelligent and friendly moderator asking you both to cooly address each of your topics or issues.
Don't let her control or steal your frame Hariy. Try and reframe her calling you out on an issue to an more appropriate venue and time.
-Stigmata-
(who sometimes wonders if the tuxedo-wearing Michael Buffer pops out of the closet when HD's W starts fuming and screams, "Let's Get Ready To Rrrrrrrrummmmmbbbbblllllle...!!)
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Good points about his refraining from drinking. You are right, that is to be commended.
So say you're an F who is totally enmeshed with an M. Your whole life is about him it seems and your R. Boom You discover he's had an affair with another F. Your whole view of yourself and your R is demolished since you were as one and there was no way he would ever dump you for another. Total shock.
So H reacts in one of 2 ways.
First way:
The tears start flowing from his eyes. he actually shakes and cries. Pleads for you not to cut him out of your life and apologizes profusely, calling himself stupid blah blah blah, and implores you to try and find int in your heart to forgive him and that he will never do it again.
This is extreme vulnerability (esp. for an manly type M) and sticking a neck on the line to be chopped off. Yes, in other cases it's used for manipulation, BUT IMO that happens primarily in those unhealthy Rs where the M-F resorts to these theatrics after "screwing upp over and over again ad infinitum.
This emotion-filled display of vulnernability is an one-shot deal in an R IMO.(esp. for the less outwardly emotional Ms) You cannot go to this well multiple times as if you do you are not remorseful at all...but rather an controlling manipulative btch/ba$tard.
Second response:
Your cheating H is fairly stoic and apologizes. Not many tears, if any. He asks you for forgiveness followed by an request that you try and get past it. Is truly remorseful but feels showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness and lack of self-respect.
Which response gives you the feeling that H is really hurting inside for what he has done to coincide with the immense internal pain you are feeling in the midst of your enmeshed codependent distorted view of reality?
Well, coming from my own personal experience with a fairly enmeshed M, I can say without a doubt that answer #2 is much more effective. In fact, H followed through in a similar fashion to # 2 when we got back together. Never had tears, never begged, just stated VERY sincerely that he made a horrendous mistake. The words meant something because he showed it through his actions day after day. I think the groveling approach, #1, is not necessarily wrong, but it certainly does not garner more respect than #2. It's all just words. It's the follow-up actions that count.
He fought his addiction and has remained sober in the face of massive resentment. I find that amazing. If I had an addictive personality to alcohol and harbored such resentment over an A I think I would be hard pressed not to dive right back into the bottle for comfort, pain relief, and blowing my stack with my newly loosened, albeit slurred, tongue.
On some level it seems to me H respects Heather's desire for him not to drink. To me that's an form of love...and, <shock!> respect.
And you may be right. I know Heather has reason to suspect he changed in the first place and doesn't dive right back into the bottle now because his lawyer advised him that to do so would greatly endanger his case for sharing custody of the children. I don't know you at all, Stig, but I wonder a bit when you project how you think you *might* be if you had a certain condition (that for all I know you don't actually have) onto Heather's H. And from there to determine that H's actions are a form of love and <shock!> respect.
It could well be that I'm just overly sensitive but these are the things that worry me. I think there's a pressure that goes along with, "I'm sure your H loves and respects you". I don't think any of us have a good grasp on what H thinks or how he feels.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I don’t get the gist of your comments. It seems like you are very concerned that you could be making an error in our analysis and recommendations. Well, of course we could, but so could their counselor, so could their lawyer and anyone else. There are no guarantees that anything will work or that what we say won’t make things worse. It is up to Heather to do what she thinks best. All I can say it that what she is doing does not seem to work.
There is as much risk in taking no action as there is in taking the wrong action. But the advantage in taking the wrong action is that you get to rule out one theory. That will help you to better pick the next approach. Doing nothing leaves you blind. So what is it you are really worried about?
I think the groveling approach, #1, is not necessarily wrong, but it certainly does not garner more respect than #2. It's all just words. It's the follow-up actions that count.
Really!!! That is a surprise to me. I would have thought answer #1 was no brainer because of all the emotion, feelings and empathy it could generate. Sounds like respect is high on your list….. mmmmmm, then again, maybe not so surprising from you (and that is not meant as any kind of jab).
Cobra, I agree with LFL. I would not want to see a crying wreck of a man. Most women wouldn't. I think you are confusing the fact that women want to see emotional from men, as meaning they want to see men emotionAL.
Women do NOT want to see men acting like women! It turns us off and goes against the laws of nature.
I can see what your saying and I couldn't see myself ever groveling on the floor, but a man pouring yourself out is a sure sign of vulnerability and usually women eat that up, no?
