Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[Stigmata]

Stig, your posts are always so long. But usually have lots of good stuff in 'em.

- I know on the length. Esp. my night posts when I have more time. Plus my head tends to parallel process multiple issues so I'd rather build an long multiple-layered post less often than engage in single issue multiple post back and forth "tennis" with OP. I would do the latter if I had the time or patience to sit on this web site...but I don't.

My occasional day posts are usually shorter because I'm juggling RL.

I just wanted to maybe point out that we need to distinguish between "love" and "codependence". You sort of looked to several different points to "prove" that her H really loves her but most of those points simply supported their continued codependence/undifferentiation than "love".

- I don't consider these 2 issues to be mutually exclusive. I was involved in an codependent R yet there was plenty of love there on both sides. It's hard for me to rationalize someone being in an codependent long term R with another person without there being some sort of mutual "feelings" there whether it be "soul mate" type love on one end of the spectrum or :we got drunk and got married at the shotgun chapel in Vegas and enjoy each other's company" type love on the other end...especially with the bond of M and children thrown into the mix.

So I guess you could argue what really is love. Nothing her H has displayed looks like love to me. I'm not saying he is doing it purposefully to hurt her, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking he is showing love to her.

- I have absolutely no idea what Heather's H feels for her in the love department. Could be the type of love you have for your dog, your grandmother, sisterly love or the "soul mate" love of which I referred. Shrug. Maybe I'll borrow Karen's Superscanner Jr.

And likewise I have absolutely no idea how he chooses to show his love to OP; too far outside my realm of consideration. Double shrug.

I will say this, however, just based upon looking at his outward actions within their R. It would seem to me if H truly had no love for Heather he would dive right back into getting drunk, enjoying his lack of inhibition with his tongue, and making Heather's life miserable by forcing her to have to deal with him.

He fought his addiction and has remained sober in the face of massive resentment. I find that amazing. If I had an addictive personality to alcohol and harbored such resentment over an A I think I would be hard pressed not to dive right back into the bottle for comfort, pain relief, and blowing my stack with my newly loosened, albeit slurred, tongue.

On some level it seems to me H respects Heather's desire for him not to drink. To me that's an form of love...and, <shock!> respect.

I also think you were way off on this comment:
I don't see you as an F who would collapse to the floor in tears and beg H for forgiveness and pleadings of sorrow after he discovered your A. If my thinking is right on this I think if you had done such with an display of total vulnerability at the figurative feet of your H back then his current attitude would be much different and he would have been satisfied that was the remorseful behavioral display he still seeks from you today.
Are you saying her groveling for forgiveness would help this mess? I think that just perpetuates their codependent power-play interactions. It's like saying a man who beats the crap out of his W and then begs for forgiveness, must really love her. Or even worse, the fact that they stay together in that R proves they really love each other.

- Correct. I was way off in terms of Heather's sitch. But don't feel I'm way off in general. Here's why:

When 2 people are so fused into one reality and one strays from that reality with an A and explodes it...the hurt partner is left feeling his/her entire existence to that point was one big joke/sham since the cheater was obviously an "fraud." Yes, highly dysfunctional.

Therefore, an extreme reaction of remorse and sorrow is often warranted--an reaction way out at the end of the specturm to counter the codependency, which is way out at the opposite end of that specturm. Extreme display for an extreme dysfunctional state. And the only person who decides when is enough will always be the one who has been cheated on.

I like to shift perspectives. So say you're an F who is totally enmeshed with an M. Your whole life is about him it seems and your R. Boom You discover he's had an affair with another F. Your whole view of yourself and your R is demolished since you were as one and there was no way he would ever dump you for another. Total shock.

So H reacts in one of 2 ways.

First way:

The tears start flowing from his eyes. he actually shakes and cries. Pleads for you not to cut him out of your life and apologizes profusely, calling himself stupid blah blah blah, and implores you to try and find int in your heart to forgive him and that he will never do it again.

This is extreme vulnerability (esp. for an manly type M) and sticking a neck on the line to be chopped off. Yes, in other cases it's used for manipulation, BUT IMO that happens primarily in those unhealthy Rs where the M-F resorts to these theatrics after "screwing upp over and over again ad infinitum.

This emotion-filled display of vulnernability is an one-shot deal in an R IMO.(esp. for the less outwardly emotional Ms) You cannot go to this well multiple times as if you do you are not remorseful at all...but rather an controlling manipulative btch/ba$tard.

Second response:

Your cheating H is fairly stoic and apologizes. Not many tears, if any. He asks you for forgiveness followed by an request that you try and get past it. Is truly remorseful but feels showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness and lack of self-respect.

Which response gives you the feeling that H is really hurting inside for what he has done to coincide with the immense internal pain you are feeling in the midst of your enmeshed codependent distorted view of reality?

Hope I'm not coming off too harsh.

- Never. I can handle any responses ranging from intelligent disagreement to abject vicious personal attacks/insults on me because I don't give my power away to OP IRL or VL--especially strangers on the Internet.

Doesn't mean I'm not humble when OP point out that I am way off base. I readily admit to my mistakes and shortcomings when OP show that I am in error and thank them internally and/or externally for helping me to recognize and come back "on base."

I just find the word "love" thrown around so easily that I wonder if we will justify any and all behavior on a S part, because they are M and must therefore be showing love for each other. Not all R/M are really built on love. And beyond love, lots of R/M are not even built on respect.

- I like to throw that word/feeling around whenever I can IRL and the easier the better. But I know what you are saying.

I think the Rs you describe that have low/no love and/or respect are in the minority. For me, if I find myself in such an R I'm getting out of it ASAP if either one of us truly feels this way. Life's too short to be with someone who neither loves nor respects you. Seeya.

BTW, I do not "justify" any of H's behavior towards Heather on the basis of his "love." (I know you were being general here.) He is being childish, punishing, and arrogantly obstinate like someone who is totally insecure and self-hating. But I will not indict him for being an horrible person. I think he's lost in an fog and doesn't know how to find his way out.

The level of codependence in Heather's M is obvious. I think BOTH of them need to GAL. You sort of told her that detachment would just create more "paranoia" in her H so she shouldn't do that. I feel an complete GAL detachment while still living under the same roof is only going to aggravate his paranoia. Don't you think this is also playing into their codependency. His "paranoia" is not her issue. She cannot be responsible for his feelings, right? And vice versa.

- I think the length of my post caused you to misread what I wrote. If you go back you'll see that I did not say for Heather not to GAL and detach. I said an complete hard core detachment at this stage in their dysfunction will drive his paranoia stemming from his ongoing resentment. IMO you can't rip it off like an Band-Aid on this one.

I said she might think about lovingly and congenially detaching. Not engaging in his baiting her into arguments and controlling her angry retorts for starters. But to GAL by all means without leaving him in the dust as it seems to me H has zero GAL interests at this point.

This web site and the MWD mantra for this type of solution-based approach seems to be "Baby Steps."

Cobra made a great point that she should be living her life the way she wants whether she is M or not. And I don't mean a mariied single, I mean that she should be an independent person FIRST and then bring that healthy independence into the M. Her H should do the same. They clearly have a long way to go to even starting that journey.

- Yes and what I said as well. She has an career, hobbies, friends...wants to have her own identity. She is doing an good job considering but sometimes holds herself back out of fear over whacking H back to square one. Likewise I said H has zero identity or seeming personal goals for self-actualization, personal (maybe career too) ambition, or an diverse network of friends.

And this goes right to what Phase 3 has just posted about his fears that one person cannot change an R dynamic in many cases. Of course, it's what MWD preaches over and over again in DR and DB. Sometimes one person can change the R overnight; sometimes it's months/years later; sometimes it never happens and the R is over.

The point is the person who GALs ends up an much healthier person to cope with either outcome.

Yeah, so much for the length. Not like I have an life or income to generate. Dagnabbit, LFL, I hold you personally responsible

-Stigmata-