I want to be sure what we on the SSM board have been trying to tell is clear. Many of the people here have a lot of knowledge behind them and have taken the time to read and learn about relationship issues. It is tempting to find fault with our spouse, for there is no shortage problems. I think everyone here, including those who have had some success, can make a complaint list several pages long. Our spouses can do the same about us. This is no secret. So digging in your heel at the wrong time and in the wrong way is nothing more than escalation and will result in further breakdown of the relationship.
But the right way of digging in your heels can help both partners grow, though it may seem like things are getting worse. The difference between that kind of tension and pure escalation can be hard to distinguish. But there is a very important difference. That is what Lil, LFL, Stig and I have been trying to tell you. Escalation is focused on the other person. Differentiation and proper boundaries are based on you. Keeping reading Schnarch and you will see more and more of what I mean.
Something Schnarch wrote in PM really grabbed my attention: "In an emotionally fused R, when one partner starts to hold onto him~ or herself, the other partner feels controlled!"
Yes!! And this is why differentiation can look just like escalation. To you H, you are provoking him, daring him and the only way he knows to react is to strike back. He then expects retaliation from you. But “staying above the chessboard,” as Lil puts it, short circuits this cycle.
I disagree. I *do* want to hear what he has to say, as long as it's not a BS front not to have to address issues. That is usually all I get from him. Arguments about why things I say are stupid, crazy or wrong. I get very little, if any, original thought from him.
Schnarch mentions that when couples argue over whose version of the facts is correct that the couples are highly enmeshed, with each trying to make their set of complaints take precedence over the other. So each spouse tries to make the other address his/her concerns at the expense of the other.
I am a smart person and I can tell the difference between a debate meant only to steer me into the woods (thus far from the issue at hand) and self disclosure.
You two are alike. When you say you see a difference in him through self disclosure, what you are really attracted to is his showing vulnerability. This is non-threatening and makes you feel safe. But it is scary for him. For him to hear you, you must also become vulnerable and endure the “scariness.”
Cobra, can you tell me when *I* start to matter? What about my issue in the first place, the idea that I feel I deserve an answer when I ask a question of him? When are my issues EVER addressed?
Don’t you see that the key is not to expect him to EVER address your needs. You fulfill your own needs. If he then does it too, then all the better. But what happens if he decides to cut it off again? This could be for any reason, whether it is something voluntary or involuntary. In either case you are vulnerable to him. Right now you complain because he doesn’t give you’re the consideration you feel you deserve. Wouldn’t it be better if you didn’t feel this way, that his withholding didn’t tear at your heart like it does? This what differentiation means.
It does not mean you can’t love him and he love you. It does not mean you two can’t share all the things you do and that you still depend on him. But you depend on him because you want to, not because you have to, as you do now.
Maybe I just need to live my life the way I want.
Why would you not do this anyway? Even if your relationship were great, why wouldn’t you try to live your life in a way you want. There are always compromises required with another person. But when you sacrifice who you are for the sake of someone else, and they do not return whatever level of gratitude that you think is justified for your efforts, then you will grow resentful. This is human nature. But knowing it is a dangerous part of our nature, we can be smart enough to avoid its pitfalls. I acknowledge this and other dark aspects of myself exist. My task is to take those course of action that will minimize the threat to me that will bring these dark aspects out because if they emerge, the relationship suffers.
Cobra, do you really think H's answers to my questions are genuine 'answers'? Because like I said above, I feel they are just diversions. I don't push for an answer that I want, I just push for a real answer.
Heather, just what is a “real” answer? Who determines this and in the end, why does it matter? I am sure there have been arguments in the past that you have won and some that he has won. Can you tell me exactly what those arguments were over, and how you or he winning a particular argument changed the course of your relationship? If you had reversed all those arguments to where he won instead of losing, and vice versa, do you really think you would be in a different position than where you are know?
I think the answer is no. The question is why is this so and why do we bother to fight if the outcome isn’t affected? I think the reason is not the fight itself and the particular issues fought over, but the PROCESS by which disagreements are handled. The process is what affects the relationship, not the outcome of the process.
Again, look at what you fight about. Generally couples fight over nothing. Giving all the decisions to one spouse or the other will usually not change a family’s lifestyle very much since most couples are closely matched already. But look at how much an impact the fighting has. Even if no decisions are made to push the family one direction or another, stalemates can destroy a family and marriage just from the WAY the decisions are handled. So stop focusing on the outcome. It really is not so important. Let it go. When you do, he might take notice and concede to you on other points (yes, he really might, even in your state of war!)
Butt taken to the degree I would have to take it in my M, why the he!! would one bother? At some point, you have to ask "Why am I with you?!"
Good question, but one to ask yourself. There is a lot of anger and resentment in that question. How is it that someone who means so little to you, someone you might consider dropping from your life, can raise those kinds of emotions? It is because your H is really someone VERY important to you. This makes you vulnerable and it is scary. Just try to focus on your self.
