Am I Creating a SSM Part II

[heatherg]

I did say H is not prone to physical violence and overall, he hasn't been. H is more passive aggressive than aggressive, but he has been aggressive enough times that I am fully aware it can happen. He has never, ever hit me.
I've become hesitant to talk about it because I don't want to tell a sob story nor do I want to sound like I'm defending his behavior. I'm sort of on middle ground on the subject afraid to lean too far one way or the other because it's such a sensitive subject.

You seem to be taking a black/white approach to this situation. He didn't beat the crap out of her last time. That doesn't mean the situation wasn't incredibly nasty and not something she wants to dwell on or repeat.

And while H's ugliest moments occurred in the past and he seems less prone to those outbursts now, I don't get the impression from Heather that she's completely confident that an uninvited return to the marital bed wouldn't result in a similar response.

This is very well said and it is exactly how I feel.

No one said he was a horror.

Except me maybe

But he doesn't really seem to feel that he is doing anything wrong. That sense of entitlement/justification is very strong.
Yes, he is going to MC and she says he is making some improvements. That is great. But when she tries to address anything SHE feels is a problem (the marital bed, etc), it's back to square one it seems with him.

Sigh. LFL, you are so right. H doesn't seem to feel that there is anything wrong with the way he acts/treats me. If there is no acknowledgement of needing change, how probable is it that change will ever occur?

I tried to talk to H last night about him ignoring me. I said "The way we're interacting, with you ignoring me and staying down in your room....does that mean that that you're not willing to continue working on the R?" He just looked at me and said "Sure." I just sat there...I said "Sure?" He said "Yeah, sure, I don't even know what you're talking about." I told him I had no idea why he was even ignoring me and he told me it was because I was reverting back to my old self, picking fights and demanding answers and apologies. I said "H, asking a question is neither picking a fight nor demanding an answer." I kept my cool the whole time, which is a real accomplishment for me. He stared at the TV. I asked if there was a better time to talk about this and he said he didn't know. I said ok, well I'll try again tomorrow. He said "It's just gonna be the same thing." I told him that this was not good, our R could not handle this and that if we couldn't work this out then we wouldn't be able to work any problem out. This is our first test since we've been getting along better and we are failing it. I told him I didn't care about the shirt it was about how he was treating me. He kept saying "If you don't care about the shirt, just let it drop." I said I was not willing to continue living like this and he said I was threatening him. I said I wasn't threatening, just stating that I wasn't willing to live like this and he just looked at me and said "Duh, that's a threat." These sentences he blessed me with were in between periods where he ignored me and watched tv, laughing at what was happening on the TV. I would say "Did you just hear what I said?" He would say "No" and keep watching tv. Obviously, after a few minutes, I just said fine and left the room. I was so angry I had to go for a walk, had to get out of the house.
This is exactly what he used to do to me pre A when there was a problem. It's almost like this is his strategy, believing that something can't be real if he won't let it be said or heard. There can't be a problem and he can't be expected to change or address it in any way if he won't even allow the message to be delivered.

So, yes, we are back to square one. Apparently the progress I thought we were making was mostly surface progress. Nothing is really changing on the inside for him.

I've got a lot on my mind, I've really pulled inside myself these last few days. I'm worried about depression...sometimes I feel like this is getting the best of me. I had LASIK surgery Thursday and H has yet to ask me how I feel. After the surgery was over, I fainted and it felt weird to have the doctors be more concerned about me than H. He never lifted a finger, never said a word. Only complained that it took longer than it was supposed to and he needed to get back to work. The next morning I had to take a cab to get my car because he wouldn't get up early enough to take me on his way to work. While I don't want to wallow in self-pity, I know this isn't how someone is supposed to act...I mean I couldn't treat a friend like that much less someone I supposedly shared a deeper connection with.

Something in Schnarch's book struck me. That people say they don't communicate, when really they communicate a lot. Maybe that's a lesson for me. H's lack of communication with me actually tells me quite a bit doesn't it? I think I have just been unable to accept what he's 'telling' me. Maybe I need to start accepting it.

We have a C session on Wednesday. I am really hoping that something profound happens or that she can help shed some light on this somehow. I feel like I've just had enough.

[Cobra]

Heather,

If he says you are threatening him, he is either lying, or he thinks you are threatening him, simple as that. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with him or that you really are threatening him, but through his filters that is what he hears. Remember I told you that you two are extremely enmeshed? You don’t want to hear what he says. You want him to reflect back to you what you want to hear, because that is what you need in order to self sooth.

He doesn’t want to talk to you because not only does he know what you will say, but it doesn’t really matter. You stated so yourself: He said "It's just gonna be the same thing." The only thing that matters to him is that you keep coming to him and saying something, anything. Let me explain.

Have you read the thread by Fighting4wife? I see a lot of similarities between you and him. You are both pursuing your spouse, trying to salvage a marriage you see slipping through your fingers. You are not terrified of the potential split, the abandonment, the fear of being alone, of losing your sense of security, even your purpose in life. Your anxiety is getting the better of you.

Fighting4wife has made a remarkable turnaround in an extremely short period of time in understanding how his actions have pushed his wife away and made his situation worse. He was denying his inner fears, instead trying to control the relationship and his wife, justifying that he was doing so for her own good, to keep her from suffering. He thought he was being the hero and saving the relationship for her. He was being a martyr, but his was to cover up his own fears. Really he was only trying to protect himself. Whenever he felt the relationship slipping away, he would exert more pressure and control in order to hold on to his W. Eventually she completely detached and resigned herself to divorce.

Now I am not saying Fighting4wife was all to blame. His wife played a role too (50% in my opinion), just as your H is playing a role. You are learning how codependent you are. You H is equally so, only in an inverse way. He is doing all he can to avoid the relationship and any deep emotions. It is a very passive-aggressive behavior, but it is his way of trying to control you and keep you pursuing him. The more he knows you are desperate to hold the marriage together, the more comfortable and secure he is. While he is the avoider, his security comes from your pursuit. Stop the pursuit and you will push him out of his comfort zone. But don’t expect him to react right away. Giving him some space will feel good at first. He needs some time to realize that the pursuit has ended. I really think the book “Love Addiction” is quite relevant to your relationship.

If I am correct in this analysis, then I think you need to stop your traditional pursuit behavior. Stop doing the same thing. When he does not give you the answer you want, you push harder to the point that you get mad. If you blow up then you might be able to get a response out of him, you might force him to answer your questions, but you still won’t like what he says. So you go cool off and start the cycle again.

He is angry with you, for good reason. He is reacting as a child. He’s got loads of work to do and some of the hardest realizations may be on his end. The quiet, proper, controlled spouse often has their issues buried the deepest. I had to face much of this myself. It wasn’t easy. The male ego is a tough barrier. Like Schnarch say, it is easier to fight someone else than to fight yourself.

You have come to realize how much your actions are controlled by fear and a need for affirmation. This emptiness within you, which comes from your FOO, is what creates the anxiety. It is the hardest to control. Fighting4wife is struggling with it and I still do too. Stop looking to your H to give you comfort and compassion. Even if he does, you are at risk of him pulling it away again. Go inside yourself for support. Rely only on you. He is too self absorbed and focused on his own issues. He does not have the ability to support you right now because he is equally dysfunctional.

Also, don’t expect anything profound at the counseling session. If it happens, then great, if not, just keep the focus on you. Don’t come to depend on counseling to support you any more that expecting your H to. Again, you must sooth and support yourself.

[heatherg]

Remember I told you that you two are extremely enmeshed?

After reading some of Schnarch and what enmeshment is, I agree. Something Schnarch wrote in PM really grabbed my attention:
"In an emotionally fused R, when one partner starts to hold onto him~ or herself, the other partner feels controlled!"
That seems to perfectly describe what goes on in my M with H. Anytime I try to stand up for myself or assert myself in the R, he gets defensive, tells me I'm being 'threatening' or 'selfish' or 'want everything my way' etc. Really, I get very little my way, but every time I try, he does in fact feel like I'm trying to control him.

You don’t want to hear what he says. You want him to reflect back to you what you want to hear, because that is what you need in order to self sooth.


I disagree. I *do* want to hear what he has to say, as long as it's not a BS front not to have to address issues. That is usually all I get from him. Arguments about why things I say are stupid, crazy or wrong. I get very little, if any, original thought from him. I can tell the difference between the rare occassions that he actually lets out a feeling and a BS argument. I can tell immediately when I hear a genuine comment from him, there is a huge difference. First of all, it makes sense. Even if I disagree or feel differently, at least what he says makes sense. I am a smart person and I can tell the difference between a debate meant only to steer me into the woods (thus far from the issue at hand) and self disclosure.

Stop the pursuit and you will push him out of his comfort zone. But don’t expect him to react right away. Giving him some space will feel good at first. He needs some time to realize that the pursuit has ended. I really think the book “Love Addiction” is quite relevant to your relationship.

I have stopped pursuing for weeks at a time before. Things were very cold though. I have difficulty keeping my distance yet maintaining a warm temperature toward him.
So, ok, let's say I stop pursuing and also achieve a pleasant tone toward him. Eventually, he crawls out of his cave and starts talking to me again. Cobra, can you tell me when *I* start to matter? What about my issue in the first place, the idea that I feel I deserve an answer when I ask a question of him? When are my issues EVER addressed? From my experience, they don't get addressed. I stop pursuing, I be nice to H, he decides to stop acting like a baby at some point and we go on with life as usual. Sounds like a great deal for him...act however you want, treat your W however you want and things still work out great for ya. Yey, isn't life grand? Why would H ever change in a scenario like this?

If I am correct in this analysis, then I think you need to stop your traditional pursuit behavior. Stop doing the same thing.

I was thinking this morning, wondering if maybe I need to treat this like the LRT. H doesn't like it when I go out, etc. Maybe I just need to live my life the way I want. Start GAL, making plans to see movies with friends after the kids are asleep on the weekends, etc. That will cause HUGE problems in our R, but maybe that's what we need? What do you think of that? It would certainly make him realize he is no longer being pursued and may make him feel the effects of his behavior. When you're not nice, people don't want to be around you. Period.

When he does not give you the answer you want, you push harder to the point that you get mad. If you blow up then you might be able to get a response out of him, you might force him to answer your questions, but you still won’t like what he says. So you go cool off and start the cycle again.

Cobra, do you really think H's answers to my questions are genuine 'answers'? Because like I said above, I feel they are just diversions. I don't push for an answer that I want, I just push for a real answer. He could tell me he's never going to forgive me and to get the he!! out and although I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't doubt that was what he was truly feeling at the moment. We can work with that. Right now, his answers are crap and he *isn't* giving me/us anything to build on. So, I cool off and I start the cyle again? OR.....maybe I stop pursuing and we move on in the R until the next thing happens that I would like to address and H acts the same way and it starts over again. If I would just shut up and do what he says and act like a good little girl, we wouldn't have these problems, right? I don't feel like this cycle is a dysfunction that is perpetuated by me. The fact is, R's have problems and issues that need to be discussed. Sometimes both partners realize there is a problem and sometimes the problem is felt by one partner and that partner is responsible for bringing it up to the other parnter. That doesn't happen in my R!! I can't have problems because H won't address them. Is that really my dysfunction for bringing it up? Isn't that what a responsible parnter is supposed to do, not expect the other person to read their mind?

Stop looking to your H to give you comfort and compassion. Even if he does, you are at risk of him pulling it away again. Go inside yourself for support. Rely only on you. He is too self absorbed and focused on his own issues. He does not have the ability to support you right now because he is equally dysfunctional.

I agree with this to a certain extent. But taken to the degree I would have to take it in my M, why the he!! would one bother? At some point, you have to ask "Why am I with you?!"

[LustForLife]

Hi Heather
I can tell you are frustrated, not that I blame you.
Sorry things are so stressful for you.
Maybe I just need to live my life the way I want. Start GAL, making plans to see movies with friends after the kids are asleep on the weekends, etc. That will cause HUGE problems in our R
Why is this going to be such a problem? I think you should definitely GAL.
If I would just shut up and do what he says and act like a good little girl, we wouldn't have these problems, right? I don't feel like this cycle is a dysfunction that is perpetuated by me. I don't think Cobra is saying to just shut up and deal with it. But I will say it certainly IS a cycle perpetuated by you. Again, people treat you the way you let them treat you.
Look, I understand your frustration, I'm one stubborn chickie and like answers as much as the next person. What I don't understand is how you some how established that this pattern was ok in the first place. And you are telling him it is ok, don't you see that? He knows you will back down. That is how he keeps control.
I'm torn on the differing perspectives on how you should handle this. I first said assert yourself more but Cobra has some good ideas about detachment. Either way, at least you are breaking the cycle. You need to stay out of his sh*t.
can't have problems because H won't address them. Is that really my dysfunction for bringing it up? Isn't that what a responsible parnter is supposed to do, not expect the other person to read their mind?
The dysfunction does not come when you bring it up but it comes in your reaction to him. Your H frustrates me to no end and I don't even know him! That's some of my own transference going on there I guess. But I do think you have let him get away with these bs responses your whole M so he is just acting out the same responses the two of you have established as Your M.
And then, you get frustrated to no end and go off and have an A or whatever. Look, I'm not saying I would do any better but I think you need to gain some more insight into what role you play in this mess. When you see that, you will be able to respond more effectively to him and/or realize you are not going to put up with that kind of M any longer and get out. He needs to show more effort to working on that M if you ask me. You can't do it alone. You are absolutely right that you deserve to have your needs met just as much as his. Right now, it sounds like none of your needs are being met AND he doesn't seem to care. hmmm...
I guess I would ask why does HE want this M to continue? Does he love you and how does he show that love? Does he want to change anything about the current R (other than you nagging him, acting crazy etc)? Does he really think things are fine the way they are? yikes. Why does he have such low standards for his own M?
And better yet, what are your standards?

[heatherg]

I think you should definitely GAL.

I think so too I do karate twice a week and my kids are small. So more than that, is walking the line between selfishness and family values. BUT....I was thinking of a movie in the evenings every now and then after the kids go to bed. I'm probably going to go to dinner with a friend this week. How much do other working mothers do for 'alone time'? I want to make sure I don't end up being unfair to H or to my kids.

But I will say it certainly IS a cycle perpetuated by you. Again, people treat you the way you let them treat you.

I was pretty damn tempted to go stay the night with a friend when H refused to have a conversation with me the other night. I was thinking that maybe a couple weeks on the couch at a friend's house might bring some perspective for both of us. What would you have done?

What I don't understand is how you some how established that this pattern was ok in the first place. And you are telling him it is ok, don't you see that? He knows you will back down. That is how he keeps control.


Well, it started because I was 17. I had never met anyone like him in my life and I thought that because he cared about what I wore, he loved me. I didn't know any better! And it took me a long, long time to figure it out. And then....then to actually do something about it. It was an uphill battle for sure, but I made it. Sort of. I am stuck at this point and I sincerely need help, because, no, I CANNOT see how I tell him it's ok to treat me this way. I am so confused as to how to be a responsible adult while also battling H with this stuff. It seems so childish. I want my M to work, but I am stuck. I can't figure it out, maybe I can't see the forest because of the trees, maybe my pride is in the way, mabye my fear is controlling me....I don't know. But I know I am blind to whatever it is that you guys see. Tell me what to do and I will try consider it. I will.

The dysfunction does not come when you bring it up but it comes in your reaction to him.

I've been told this before and I whole heartedly agree. I've made some progress in this area, believe me. But I'm apparently still not where I need to be. I have stopped calling names, not even jerk is uttered from my mouth. I have tried VERY hard to keep my voice on an even keel, not raising it...I have been pretty succesful. I have tried to keep the conversation focused on the point at hand, not so succesful at this. This is definitely a work in progress

I first said assert yourself more but Cobra has some good ideas about detachment. Either way, at least you are breaking the cycle. You need to stay out of his sh*t.

Both seem to get me nowhere. At best, asserting myself only causes H to focus on my 'attitude' and tell me how it's the 'old me' and how selfish I am. He will blame this attitude for not speaking to me or treating me with any respect. It is my fault because of my attitude. At worst, asserting myself causes a serious power struggle, where as HP noted in my other thread, someone has to be the adult. Someone HAS to back down eventually. Um, that would be me.
Detachment seems to also give H what he wants because he doesn't *want* to deal with this stuff. Detachment would be a great permanent way of life for H. Oh, as long as I was within earshot I mean.

Look, I'm not saying I would do any better but I think you need to gain some more insight into what role you play in this mess.

I agree. I'm trying. As I see it, I need H to give me some clue....I mean, trying to figure it out myself is getting me nowhere. MC is really the only thing that can help me here I think because it is the only place where H will really talk. Even there, he may say more than I ever thought he would, but still, most of it is BS that she has to wade through. But whatever I can get from that is all I get, so I'll take it. Maybe I can steer the C session this week toward why H refuses to converse with me about issues outside of MC.

He needs to show more effort to working on that M if you ask me. You can't do it alone. You are absolutely right that you deserve to have your needs met just as much as his. Right now, it sounds like none of your needs are being met AND he doesn't seem to care. hmmm...

Girl, you and I are so in agreement!

I guess I would ask why does HE want this M to continue?

For the kids. He says D would turn their lives upside down. Can't say I disagree, but since we're here, we might as well make the most of it. Apparently, that's where him and I see things differently.

Does he love you and how does he show that love?

He says he doesn't know if he loves me. How does he show that love? Hmm. I wouldn't say I feel loved. If he doesn't even know if he loves me, he probably couldn't give me an answer on how he shows love. I feel cared about sometimes, like when I had the flu a month or so ago and he was good to me. That's about the highlight of how loved I feel.

Does he want to change anything about the current R (other than you nagging him, acting crazy etc)?

He won't say. Only that he wants to 'take one day at a time'.

Does he really think things are fine the way they are?

Yes. He has stated in MC that he is not so terribly unhappy with the way things are.

Why does he have such low standards for his own M?

He didn't used to, but then I cheated on him. Now, all bets are off and he is choosing the lesser of two evils for the benefit of his kids. Or so he says.

And better yet, what are your standards?


My standards are much higher than this. We should be sleeping in the same bed. I am wearing my rings and we are still together two years, post A....he should be wearing his ring as well. We should be able to talk about issues in our M. We obviously can't resolve every issue we have, but we should be able to *discuss* every issue we have. If he is so interested in porn, seeing other women naked, you'd think he'd be at least slightly interested in getting some alone time with ME, away from the kids. My standards are not to be treated like a princess, but to be treated like I matter, like I am an important and valued person in his life. I expect to be talked to as such.

I have found some peace, calmed down a little. H seems to have stopped ignoring me. Have no idea the rhyme or reason to that, but whatever. I guess he decided four days was enough. Lucky me. Night all.

[LustForLife]

I do karate twice a week and my kids are small. So more than that, is walking the line between selfishness and family values. BUT....I was thinking of a movie in the evenings every now and then after the kids go to bed. I'm probably going to go to dinner with a friend this week. How much do other working mothers do for 'alone time'?
Ok good. It sounds like you have some of your own interests and make time for them. That is very important. and glad to hear you are spending time with friends. I don't spend much more time than you out of "family time". I go to the gym 4-5 times a week (but I usually take the kids with me (they have a daycare)). And I'll have a girl's night out about once a month. The rest is spent with H and our mutual friends. Like this weekend, went wine tasting and out to dinner with a bunch of couples. Had a great time. Do you do things with your H as a "couple" and spend it with other M couples? It's important to "play" together too.
I was pretty damn tempted to go stay the night with a friend when H refused to have a conversation with me the other night. I was thinking that maybe a couple weeks on the couch at a friend's house might bring some perspective for both of us. What would you have done?
It doesn't really matter what I would have done because I am not in your M. But your idea to stay on a friends couch doesn't really sound like it would have much effect on your H to tell you the truth. He seems to greatly enjoy getting his way even to the point of seeing you miserable so you leaving would probably just make him feel like"ok, she's gone, I can do what I like now without her pestering me."
Now, if you set the boundary that if he did not show some genuine attempts to improve the M right now (it's been two years!), then you were going to follow through on a legal separation, maybe that would have more impact? Maybe not though. Not sure what he is truly thinking, obviously.
But I know I am blind to whatever it is that you guys see. Tell me what to do and I will try consider it. I will.
First off, these are only suggestions and you should obviously consult your MC since she sees how BOTH of you interact within the M (at least in the MC office).
That said, I will state that I see a very dysfunctional/controlling/abusive M, but I coming from my own personal perspective. Have you talked about that in MC? Does the MC see your interactions as abusive?
I cheated on him. Now, all bets are off and he is choosing the lesser of two evils for the benefit of his kids. Or so he says.
Anyone who says they are staying for the kids (btdt myself at a certain point ) is covering up a ton of hurt or they really have one foot out the door and are biding their time. Not sure if you covered this yet, but is there any chance your H is having an A? Had an A? Won't wear his ring? And if he states he is staying for the kids, can you assume the M officially ends when they go off to college? That is a loooong ways off? Can you see yourself living like this that long? Can he?
The two of you are basically roommates now anyways. What's to prevent the two of you from having your needs met outside the M? He is setting up the same scenario that led you to the first A. I'm sure your H is not stupid so what is going on here? Is he simply testing you to see if you will stray? Is he testing himself? That test will surely fail eventually under these conditions.

[Burgbud]

Hey, Heather! Hope you're getting a good start to your new week.

It's been awhile and it was my (rainy) weekend with the boys so I pondered your sitch a bit while they were absorbed in video games. And, no surprise, a lot of stuff bubbled up out of that and I'm going to plop it all down in your thread because that's what I do (not nearly as much as I once did, of course, but still). You may want to grab a beverage before starting to wade thru the rest of this. And let me get this disclaimer out of the way: it's all theories, speculation, projection and wild a$$ guessing. You know that I've always been able to relate a bit to H and a lot of what follows will come from that. Utilize anything that seems helpful and discard the rest.

It's clear to me that H is what I've seen described as a "married single". He's not invested in your marriage and has never really been required to be. When you guys met you were a little out of control and he provided your life a rudder that you needed. Your way wasn't working for you and he was more than happy to provide you with his way. He gave you guidelines and rules on how to act and behave and he enforced them. In some aspects that was positive for you and you reacted well to it. I'd say he went a little overboard in controlling your jewelry and what you wore. But the point is, during this time he wasn't having to think about what you wanted and he wasn't investing in your happiness. You got your happiness from being with him; that's what you wanted.

Eventually you grew beyond that but you were already married. You're basically happy with yourself and the life you've created but you don't want to be a married single and you don't want to be married to one. You want to be married to someone who cares about your feelings and who sees your marriage as one unit instead of as two units that conveniently overlap in some areas (sex, childcare, meals, etc). He hasn't changed though. Everything points to this. His drinking in the past and his refusal to totally give it up, sticking at least to the O'Douls. The porn. The fact that he's basically not unhappy with your current arrangement. The fact that the most important thing to him is that the two of you are civil. The fact that he sees you as the key to the emotional temperature of the marriage. He sees himself as basically single and all he wants is for you not to bring him down.

He's willing to meet you partway in the areas he sees as fair. But being a married single makes one *extremely* prone to scorekeeping, because you're not "all in" with the other person. Their happiness is only important to the extent that when they're happy, they don't bug you. But if the things you want me to do to keep you happy bug me, then it isn't worth it and you'd better be doing things that bug you as well. It's like living with a roommate. A married single is willing to accomodate the M to some extent...putting the toilet seat down or not drinking directly out of the milk carton. But a married single doesn't want their day seriously interrupted. We don't want to be bothered at work. We don't want to make an extra stop when we're out running errands and we sure as hell don't want to make *two* extra stops. We don't want you taking extra Christmas pictures that we've already told you we think are stupid. If you want to do that stuff on your own time then fine. But don't drag us into it; we have other stuff we want to do. When there's something extra we want you to do we kind of expect you to do it because we don't often ask, right? We try very hard to totally take care of ourselves but when it would be *much* easier for us if you'd just help us out a little...well, there's supposed to some benefit to being married, isn't there?

We also don't want to mess around much with feelings. You deal with yours and we'll deal with ours. If you're sick then that's a real an tangible thing that we can relate to and we'll try to help you out. But if you're sad or worried...well, that's really your issue to work out, isn't it? There's nothing we can really do to make you feel better; we've learned that from hard experience when we tried to explain how you really shouldn't let the stuff that's causing those feelings bother you. You don't listen when we tell you that anyway, so why are you pestering us?

One way of dealing with a married single is to be a married single yourself. Makes sense, right? You both live your own lives and make yourselves happy while enjoying some of the important benefits of being married: sex and children. I always think of NYS's OM when I think about this because he seemed so good at it. He didn't seem to mind if K went and hung out with NYS for an afternoon. He seemed perfectly happy to live his life while K lived hers and when cooperative recreational activities were available he was willing to participate. But for a lot of us, it's not so easy. The scorekeeping makes it hard. And at a certain point, our spouse's independence interferes with our singlehood. A married single wants the advantages of having a family but doesn't want to do more than our fair share of the crappy "work" part of it. Plus, if you're out having fun and being energetic and doing karate and meeting people and laughing with them...eventually you're going to find someone better than us, aren't you? And then what's your reason to stick around? Hey, we don't go out and do all that stuff! We're content to wake up, go to work, come home and watch some TV. As long as you stay out of our hair, that's all we need. If you start living an interesting life, though: 1) we may have to watch the kids more and cook more of our own meals and 2) you're going to see us as fairly boring. So yeah, if you want to go to karate once a week, we'll support that. It's only fair. There are things we want to do sometimes, too. But twice? Three times? Your life is starting to be more about karate than it is about our family, don't you think? When there are only a few things on each side of the scale to balance, the married single life is easier to balance. When our partner starts to add things to the mix, though, it's harder to balance things and we get cranky and unsettled.

So building on LFL's question about what are you standards for your marriage, I think you're in a bit of a tight spot. You can't bear the thought of only being with your kids half the time. I think you can avoid that by becoming a married single along with H. Just be civil and stay out of his hair and he'll like you. He'll be affectionate sometimes. If his "single" life meshes well with yours, you guys might even have a marriage that rises above tolerable. When he was doing all that drinking his single life was making your life miserable so that wasn't working at all. Now, things are probably better than they were then. Maybe good enough?

If you want a true marriage, though, you've got a long row to hoe. Because right now I don't think his vision of marriage matches yours. He doesn't want the emotional involvement. This is a poor analogy but it worked for me: my aunt and uncle live in College Station, Texas, and are huge Texas A&M fans. But their son went to the University of Texas in Austin (A&M's hated rival) and he lives there now. So my aunt and uncle described how they went thru sort of a process...at first they wanted A&M to beat UT just like they always had and they were bummed if they lost. Then they got to the point where they could accept it if UT won, because at least their son would be happy. Now, while they still enjoy an A&M victory, they would kind of rather see UT win because having their son happy means more to them than a victory for their football team.

When they told me that story it was nearly unfathomable that I'd ever want *my* team to lose so somebody else could be happy that their team won. And I'd guess H would see that situation similarly. I'd say a struggling "married single" relationship is when you're really upset if your team loses to your spouse's team. Maybe a fairly successful "married single" relationship is when you don't mind that your team lost because at least your spouse's team won and that made them happy. And perhaps a true marriage is when you secretly kinda hope that your team loses because you like it better when your spouse is happy than when your team wins a game. That may seem simple and obvious but it took me awhile, even post-bomb, before I could really buy into it.

I don't know what H's parents marriage was like but it doesn't seem that he sees marriage as the giving of one's self that you see it as. He appears pretty entrenched in the married single version; maybe it's all he knows. If he doesn't understand the "all in" version and what the benefits are (feeling really loved and important is a powerful thing), it will take a lot of work before he'll be willing to buy into it.

And here's one other thing I really wanted to say: he may *never*, *ever*, buy into it, Heather. One of the things I kinda worried about when I found out you'd switched forums is that maybe you were still thinking you could control this R. Like maybe if you just got some new and better ideas, you could turn this boat around. Sure, if you change yourself you'll change the other person in the R. But that doesn't mean they change into what you want or even what you need. Even if you molded yourself into exactly what he wants, that might not be what he wants. He may never be happy or satisfied. A truly successful relationship takes two people participating. End of story. One person fighting for it can keep things afloat for some time, maybe even a long time. But you can read every book and apply every theory and make yourself into exactly who you want to be but none of that means he'll ever get onboard with you. At some point he has to want to make your relationship work. Right now he's working at making your relationship what he wants.

Well. I don't know if any new ground was broken with all that. There's something else in there about the tipping point between when individual independence makes the relationship better and when individual independence means there's not much of a relationship at all. I think a key point is that we try to make ourselves individually happy but in a successful R the other person's emotional well-being is important to our individual happiness. Maybe we can thrash that stuff around later.

Good luck, Heather! I can't think of anybody who deserves success in all this more than you.

[OG_Lou]

Re Phase3 It's clear to me that H is what I've seen described as a "married single

Interesting post and concept "married single" other wise known as being selfish.

One way of dealing with a married single is to be a married single yourself.
Sounds like a basic coping strategy with limited effort but limited rewards.

I always think of NYS's OM when I think about this because he seemed so good at it. He didn't seem to mind if K went and hung out with NYS for an afternoon.
Guess I will have to read that thread. Any links?

No time for more now. Thanks for posting the "married single" concept. It explained some things I have observed or done.

Lou

[Cobra]

Phase3,

I think you are basically saying the same things we on this board are saying to Heather, but I do not have the feeling you have a good grasp on the concepts we are discussing. The end result is close, but there is a air of fatalism to you comments, which I think could give a very pessimistic impression to Heather. You seem to think there is good chance her H may never change and, essentially cannot be rehabilitated. That is very short-sighted and should only be reserved for the more extreme cases, like those with narcissistic personality disorder or worse.

I do believe Heather has contributed mightily to her problems, and her H is equally guilty. But I see them both more as children fighting over power, trying to put their needs ahead of the other and neither one having a clue how they are making things worse. But this has no bearing on whether the relationship can be fixed. In fact, I find Heather to be quite open-minded in analyzing herself. Making the changes will take time, but assuming they are both pigeon holed as married singles seems to simplistic to me.

I will say that I have seen exactly that type of thinking on the other boards, especially the MLC board, and therefore find their advice worthless. Your statement:

Even if you molded yourself into exactly what he wants, that might not be what he wants. He may never be happy or satisfied. A truly successful relationship takes two people participating. End of story.

is true to the extent that a relationship takes two people to work, but not for the reasons you assume. Neither he nor she can be happy because of how the other remakes him/herself. They become happy because their internal sense of self, their confidence, security allows them to be happy by themselves only. The addition of a spouse is not a prerequisite for happiness, it is only an additional facet. As long as Heather focuses on the marriage as her source of happiness, that happiness will elude her. Her happiness can only come from within her. From your comments I am not sure you understand this either.

[Burgbud]

{OG_Lou] Guess I will have to read that thread. Any links?

You'll probably have to do a search for "NYSurvivor" in the Infidelity forum. He had several threads and while he mentioned this about his OM more than once, it would be a lot to sift thru.


[Cobra] From your comments I am not sure you understand this either.

Cobra, you're a good and well-intentioned person but I often think you're a bit addicted to control as well. You seem to view people a lot more algorithmically than I do (though I'm an engineer and that kind of thinking comes very easily). You tend to assign human behavior to a fairly limited number of variables that are much more easily modified than my experience indicates the case to be. I often remind myself when reading your posts that an authoritative tone doesn't make you right.

But if you have help for Heather then more power to you.

As for being a "married single", Heather's H falls pretty squarely in that category from all I've read. Heather is far from it.