Just journaling here….I’ve been absent from the boards (at least in post mode) for the past few weeks and I guess its about time to update on my sitch. Strangely, not a whole lot to report. Things have been sailing along for awhile, kinda in limbo land. W and I have shared some very nice moments of closeness, but not enough to really have a major breakthrough at this point.
On Friday, we had a nice little convo regarding our R and just some of the things that have been going on. Basically, what I took from it was that she is still unhappy and confused about a lot of things, but still recognizes that we have a lot of good in our R and that we mostly have in our past. She sees me as a good husband, a good father and loves me very much. Yet, this “thing” keeps her confused. I guess I can understand that….the “thing” offers her adventure, excitement of a different variety that is so hard to achieve in an M with three young kids.
Funny, I’ve been reading on here about how so many couples lose touch with friends, etc., and tend to rely upon each other for happiness. My W has never really had any long term friends in her life and for that matter, I don’t believe I have either. We’ve moved several times during our R and it was always hard to maintain any friendships. But, one of the other things, since we started out having kids very early on, my W was a stay-at-home Mom while I worked to keep our household. During this time, she would be very jealous if I suggested even taking time to spend with friends with work, or do things outside the home. I’m not being judgmental in the least here, this is just the way it was. For my part, I used to get a little upset by this, but I figured I shouldn’t be taking opportunities to “get” away, when she herself had no such opportunities. In the end, I think this is something that has come back to haunt both of us. This was something she mentioned the other day, about how she would like to be able to go out with a friend every once in awhile, etc. Okay….I’ll own up, I have mixed feelings about this simply because OM is still hovering about….so I wonder if any “time” away simply is code for time with OM. Of course, it may not be and truthfully, I can’t obsess about it. But its funny that she started feeling this way right about the time the bomb dropped. A small part of me also harbors some resentment here because I gave up so many opportunities when she felt that it was the way it was supposed to be, but now I’m supposed to roll over and provide her with the freedom I never had? Okay, I expect to take a little smack for that, but I recognize it as resentment and I’m doing a lot to bed it down.
In any event, Friday night was mostly uneventful…had some of our neighbors up for a few drinks, went to bed late. Saturday was a gorgeous day and a day for egg hunts. We took D’s to an egg hunt in the morning and then I went for a motorcycle ride. W took the girls to another egg hunt, and I stopped at a motorcycle shop to by W some riding gear (she needed a helmet and jacket). Later, she took the opportunity to go out shopping for some new summer clothes (sort of an Easter present from me to her). Saturday night, we ended up making baskets on behalf of the Easter bunny and W and I did something we haven’t done in a long time…..I lit some candles and both of us soaked in our Jacuzzi tub for about an hour or so. A very nice time indeed. We talked about so much (not about R in particular, just a lot of other things) and made sure that I was overly aggressive in sexual overtures. A nice soothing back rub and then she just laid against me as we talked. Most certainly a positive night!
After the morning festivities, yesterday just was a typical Sunday…..outside chores, etc and I let W catch up on some rest. We took the girls for a walk to McDonald’s to grab some ice cream and then toured a couple of new homes in our neighborhood for curiosity’s sake. I was a little down because it was back to work night for W and I still long for her complete adoration and affection, but I really never let it show to her. She thanked me several times for a very nice weekend and I in turn let her know that I appreciated everything as well.
So that’s basically where things sit. Nothing grand, nothing horrible. There is a lot of work to be done and I really believe a lot of it comes to rest on me to show her that this R can be fun and exciting.
Something else that we talked about on Friday was whether I was every happy in our M and whether I could be happy with her. Strangely, I chalk many of those doubts in her up to my inability over the years to show her, in her way, how much I did truly love and cherish her. This was a major failing on my part and if only I had known then what I know now……anyway, can’t focus on the past. I told her that I was very happy with her and that I was happy in our M, although I acknowledged that we had some problems (e.g., lack of communication, loss of intimacy, etc.) that we would need to focus on in moving our R forward. For my part, I have been making some changes in who I am and how I view her, but I think it will be some time before she starts recognizing them and working to change herself.
Some changes that I have effectuated in the last several weeks:
Less R talk…this is a huge problem for me and it was even worse before. But I’ve been doing much better at just letting the convo flow when it does.
Snooping: This one really was the one that killed me….I really have scaled back, but sadly have not completely eliminated. My goal this week is to NOT do it at all. And to anyone who has read this far in my post, let me offer this advice…if you are a snooper, be prepared to face your S’s little “snooping tests” so that they can see whether you are still doing it. Its just better not to do it….honestly.
Detach: While still not totally detached, I have distanced my emotions and feelings from hers to a large extent. No longer do I go on the defensive or try to “fix” things when something is has got her blood pressure roiling. No longer do I offer up my professional analysis of what’s wrong with her. In short, I’ve been much better at stepping back from the drama and just observing instead of becoming an “actor”.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I'm not sure who is out there, but any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'll start with a little bit of background information. I've been married for close to 8 years/no kids yet. I'm embaressed to say that I'm the cheater and not the cheated. My guilt overwhelmed me and I told my wife in January what happened. I was petrified to tell her for a number of reasons, but I couldn't live with myself and I had to do it regardless of the consequences. When I told her I fully expected her to be very angry (she was), and I pretty much knew that my marriage would be over. However, that didn't happen. In fact, my wife has been nicer to me over the last few months than at any point in our marriage. Unfortunately, her reaction has created new issues that I wasn't ready to deal with. Our relationship hasn't been all bad, but we had a number of issues in our marriage. Those issues led to the affair (still no excuse for what I did), and also led me to a point where I don't feel the same way about her that she feels about me. I felt like a coward and I was ready to tell her and face the music. I figured whatever I suffered would be well deserved, but I also expected that I would face the consequences of my actions, and then have the opportunity to start over. Of course there is so much more to the story, but at this point I feel very confused.
Well Greg, sorry that you have to end up here. Believe me, you will get a lot of advice on this site and I would suggest that you read through as many of the posts that you can to find something that fits your sitch.
I guess I can give you some of my insight simply because I have been in your shoes. I once was the cheater and not the cheated. While you really don't go into any great detail, I recognize some of the feelings and thoughts that you are having. Truthly, I have no doubt that my W is also experiencing these right now.
Back to you....the reaction that you got from your W is not atypical. My W, after her intial reaction, was the same way as well. Probably the best it had been in years. At first I was tentative, wasn't sure whether it was what I wanted....part of it too was I was still pining for the OW. It took some time, but the more I moved out of my fog and took a good hard look at my W and our M, the more I realized that it was what I wanted as well. I had overlooked so much of the good to justify my actions, that I was only able to see the bad.
Now, for the kicker. The problem....I didn't recognize that the affair was only a symptom of some larger problems we had in our R....lack of communication, emotional attachment, as to say the least, the emotional damage that it caused to my W. This all added up to some pretty hefty stuff for her and now I find myself in the same situation that she was in two years ago.
The point is, please give your W and your M a chance. Look at it objectively and try to recognize the good. Also realize that you and her both should try to establish what was wrong in your M that led to you having an affair. There are a lot of good books and articles out there thay may be of help to you....and others may have a much better library to offer you. For my part, I would suggest starting off by reading Divorce Rememedy and Divorce Busting to gain some perspective on how you may be feeling and also what your spouse may be feeling.
Good luck.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: ut, one of the other things, since we started out having kids very early on, my W was a stay-at-home Mom while I worked to keep our household. During this time, she would be very jealous if I suggested even taking time to spend with friends with work, or do things outside the home.
As you know, my brother from another mother, our W's, and lives for that matter, our lives, were separated at birth. In my sitch, my W is a stay-at-home mum as well and even though she never really complained too much, I felt uncomfortable ever really doing anything "fun" without her, with people from work, etc. I too don't really have friends outside work and did most everything with W. The real difference I guess is that my W does have friends, not too many, but some that she does things with every now and then. I think in my case, much of my W's "jealousy" about me doing things outside the house was just my "Mars" misunderstanding of her "Venus" need to vent about things. I know she was actually jealous sometimes, but for the most part, and this has come out since the bombs fell, she felt trapped, and uncomfortable HERSELF about going out with her friends because I was not going out. How's that for backwards. Catch 22 or something like that.
Anyway, I think we now know that for you and I, it's more about the KIND of time we spend with our W's and making sure that we meet their needs with the time we have.
Quote: I’ll own up, I have mixed feelings about this simply because OM is still hovering about….so I wonder if any “time” away simply is code for time with OM.
Same here, but in our cases, I think we need to TRY to take our W's at their word, no matter how tainted that word may be. My W is going out tomorrow night and we'll see how that goes. All I am looking for from her, and it may take some "directness" on my part to get this, it for her to acknowledge my fears and reassure me that she can be trusted.
One of the things I realized is that through all of this one thing that hurt me most is that not only could I not trust my W, but she didn't care if I trusted her. I don't think I need to trust her yet, but I want to know she wants me to. Does that make sense?
Quote: I lit some candles and both of us soaked in our Jacuzzi tub for about an hour or so. A very nice time indeed. We talked about so much (not about R in particular, just a lot of other things) and made sure that I was overly aggressive in sexual overtures. A nice soothing back rub and then she just laid against me as we talked. Most certainly a positive night!
Nice. I wonder if that was a typo (made sure that I was overly aggressive in sexual overtures) or if you meant that. Not that it's bad one way or another, just wondering. Sounds like you're moving in the right direction!
Quote: So that’s basically where things sit. Nothing grand, nothing horrible. There is a lot of work to be done and I really believe a lot of it comes to rest on me to show her that this R can be fun and exciting.
Yep, that's about the shape of things. Frank over in piecing is in the same place and is struggling too. It's a good problem to have, especially when compared to the opposite. I think we are all having the same thought right about now; why can't the W's either tell us something OR DO something to help this process along? It seems like they need to start picking up some slack on their end and helping to make this work. Who knows, I guess I am still ok with being the ONE to do the work at this point, hoping, believing, that W will join in later on when she finally KNOWS this is all for real.
Quote: Less R talk…this is a huge problem for me and it was even worse before. But I’ve been doing much better at just letting the convo flow when it does.
Yes. Live life, don't talk about it so much. It's like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon where the mobster tells Bugs to shut up and he spends the next few minutes telling the guy how he's going to shut up, he's shutting up, not another word...etc. After awhile, once the message is out, the actions need to follow.
Quote: Snooping: This one really was the one that killed me….I really have scaled back, but sadly have not completely eliminated. My goal this week is to NOT do it at all. And to anyone who has read this far in my post, let me offer this advice…if you are a snooper, be prepared to face your S’s little “snooping tests” so that they can see whether you are still doing it. Its just better not to do it….honestly.
I agree, and you know that. I actually feel more compelled to snoop now than at the height of the A because I want to confirm her assertion that the A is over. That said, the major reason I didn't snoop, other than it not helping in general, is still there. Whatever I find is out of context and thought I think I know what, lets say, his number on her phone means, I don't. I don't know what was said, I don't know much of anything. Same goes for texting. It's all out of context and in my case, even though she claims NO contact with OM, I don't want half the truth even if that half confirms she's lying.
Flying blind is not really the point here, it's just the realization that the map you think you found may be 5 years old and not really get you to where you want to go.
Quote: Detach: While still not totally detached, I have distanced my emotions and feelings from hers to a large extent. No longer do I go on the defensive or try to “fix” things when something is has got her blood pressure roiling. No longer do I offer up my professional analysis of what’s wrong with her. In short, I’ve been much better at stepping back from the drama and just observing instead of becoming an “actor”.
Great for you. This is hard, but VERY necessary to aviod those fights/arguments that arise simply because we get sucked down into their stuff when they really need us to stay where we are and just help them along if anything.
You sound GREAT and I hope to hear more good news. BTW, have not been back to Disney since the last time so...
Quote: Nice. I wonder if that was a typo (made sure that I was overly aggressive in sexual overtures) or if you meant that. Not that it's bad one way or another, just wondering.
OH Geez, this may be why I got the roast in your thread....lol. Yes, a definite typo....
Quote: I think in my case, much of my W's "jealousy" about me doing things outside the house was just my "Mars" misunderstanding of her "Venus" need to vent about things. I know she was actually jealous sometimes, but for the most part, and this has come out since the bombs fell, she felt trapped, and uncomfortable HERSELF about going out with her friends because I was not going out. How's that for backwards. Catch 22 or something like that.
Yes, funny how this works because I felt guilty becasue she couldn't do things...now I think she is the one feeling this way....she feels guilty in a lot of ways becasue she believes that I will be offended if she goes out with her friends due to our past and such. I mean, what the hey...if she wants to go, that's one thing and I don't mind. Funny, she mentioned this the other night. A couple of weeks ago, a friend of hers had mentioned going to Bingo on a Saturday afternoon. My W told me about it. No big deal in my mind, but as it turned out she didn't go. now, I don't think her friend ever called (it wasn't a definite) but now my W tells me the other day that she wouldn't have gone because it would only cause problems. Now, I haven't raised a fuss about such things in the past, why would I now? Is it because of her perception that I might get upset or is it because of something else.....
Quote: All I am looking for from her, and it may take some "directness" on my part to get this, it for her to acknowledge my fears and reassure me that she can be trusted.
Another good point. I mentioned to my W during the course of our conversation that I don't mind if she wants to go here or there and spend time with friends, etc., but there are ways to reassure us of trust if they really want us to trust them. The thing is, anything I would suggest would only come across as controlling. OK, I guess I'm a control freak if I have trust issues at this point. Precisely as you have put it...they want us to trust them 100%.
Quote: Yep, that's about the shape of things. Frank over in piecing is in the same place and is struggling too. It's a good problem to have, especially when compared to the opposite. I think we are all having the same thought right about now; why can't the W's either tell us something OR DO something to help this process along? It seems like they need to start picking up some slack on their end and helping to make this work.
Yeah, this is the one that gets to me as well....you summed it up nicely over in Frank's thread....my W said exactly the same thing, passionless and boring life. Now, I have to wonder how much is this a symptom of the A and how much of it is festering from our life together. Recognize that prior to the A, my W and I were actually spending a lot more time together doing things, going to concerts, games, out for dinner, etc. As for passion, I don't want to go into too much, but we had a pretty healthy sex life. Now, I admit that several months prior to the A, things had cooled off some, but yet I attribute that the ebb and flow of any relationship and also her hectic work pace. Sadly, there were too many moments of "we have 15 minutes, lets get some action so I can get ready for work". I don't like that, she doesn't like it, but it satisfied our basic "needs".
The point is, I can readily identify why should would feel the was she does. At the same time, I think they do have to step up to some degree and it has to be recoprocal. In some respects, my W has done this and has initiated some intimate moments (showers together, using the hot tub, etc.), I just wonder if I'm responding the right way. Also, I think my confidence has been shaken and I find myself wondering if I'm still revving the engine, so to speak. This never used to be an issue.
Quote: I actually feel more compelled to snoop now than at the height of the A because I want to confirm her assertion that the A is over.
Yeah, that's about the same time my snooping went from idle to overdrive. To be hones, during the first couple months, I just didn't do it. After she told me that she was working on us, etc, that's more or less when I stepped it up. I wish I wouldn't have, but I did. Now I find myself telling myself just DON'T do it. The point is, what does it help?
Thanks GH, and thanks for remembering Disney....
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Sheesh, what a week so far. My impatience is getting the best of me and I find myself falling back into familiar patterns. I really need to re-focus, but sometimes its so hard when things just seem so unfair. I know, I know, I'm playing the victim, but damn....
Okay, that was vague. Basically this week has been rough for me and I'm not sure why or what to pinpoint as the cause. I basically got confirmation that things haven't changed much in my sitch despite what I might have thought. Seems that OM is still a very big part of her issue right now, she's unhappy, confused, etc. All the good things that come with life you know. This really brings me down because I know that this person doesn't have anything more to offer my W and yet she's still waffling. It just boggles my mind that a decision can't be made about her life...yes, I know, many others are faced with similar circumstances, but what is it about these WAS' that makes them forget about everything important, everything good and only focus on the negative?
I know I'm going to take a hit for this today, but I really need to vent. I get so resentful when I look at all the things that have been done to try and provide a good life for my W and D's and find out that none of that means anything, or at least no as much as I thought it should. Another thing that drives me insane is the fact that the WAS can get so indignant about behavior that they themselves used to exhibit, and still do to a large degree, but find themselves loathing it when you do it. For whatever reasons, over the years, my W was very concerned about what I was up to, how much money I was spending, who I was talking to, etc. I was subjected to twenty questions about spending $5 or if a unusual number popped up on my cell phone, etc. Of course, now that W has her own "thing" she sees that these things were bad, and can't understand why I would want to do these things. WTH?!? It drives me insane.
I guess that's the other part of it too.....I'm beginning to think that maybe I gave too much and never asked for enough in this relationship. I look back over the years and while I wasn't the perfect husband, I did a lot of the things that were "right" without a handbook. Aside from the obvious (not gambling, staying out to all hours of the night, etc.) I always tried to make my W feel important and happy. In short, I believe I did everything I could to make things good for her and it just isn't enough.
I was reading in Mars/Venus that men, in particular, need the time to withdraw from relationships at times (the rubber band effect) when they feel too close. When this natural cycle is interrupted, it tends to bring about overdepedency and other various nasty stuff. Looking back, I have to wonder if this isn't the case with me. I never was truly given that space even though at times I felt I needed it. Anytime I started to pull away, i was usually sucked back in emotionally (through negative stimuli). Now, to be fair, I suppose she wasn't always allowed to have her "wave" crashing moments either becuase i would usually try to "help" her out of her down moods. I don't know, everything seems so dysfunctional and I wonder whether it can ever be fixed. I mean, I can see myself recognizing these things and making the effort to have better relationship skills, but I don't ever see my W doing the same thing. And while all these things are good things, what good are they if only one person is employing them?
So where does that leave me and my sitch? Pretty much the same as it ever was. I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm hurt...the whole gamit of emotions. I feel sorry for my W whose life up until October 2005, was very stable but now is nothing but turmoil. I resent that I feel as though I've put forth so much and now get very little recognition.
I guess I'm a little bother today more than usual because W is again taking one of her weekend getaway trips. This will be the third one since the beginning of the year. She'll declare during the week that she needs to "get away" from things and I completely understand this....heck I need to get away from things too. The past two times, she has left and gotten a hotel room somewhere in the area...each time it was a different place, but I don't ask where she is. This bothers me because for all I know, she could be using the time to spend with OM and honestly, she probably is. This weekend is no different....underneath it all, I'm skeptical....heck who wouldn't be in our sitchs, and I did express this because I felt it was important to express how I felt about it in a direct way. Of course, this only causes her to get upset and see me as accusing, but I wasn't really. I was just saying that yes, I have my doubts, Yes I'm going to be skeptical, etc. but I understand her need to get away and just "be".
The other thing is that typically she comes home and she "says" that she wants to work this out, she wants to get her life back, etc.....but it only lasts about two days :-( The first time she did go away, she wrote me the most awesome note about how this is her happiness, her life, etc...notice they were just words. I feel that this time she will likely say those things again, but I "know" that they are just words....once again I'll be set up for disappointment.
Okay, enough rambling for one day. Please, and I'm directing this to OT, don't be so harsh. I recognize that my feelings are MY feelings and are too caught up in the past and in her. I know this, and yet its very hard to put into practice for me at this point. I applaud the efforts of so many others on here for at least being able to do so (GH, NM in particular) and I look to your sitchs for guidance.
Happy Friday.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Rob, I truely feel your pain. The bomb was dropped for me in Oct. 05 also and I have been on this board since Jan 06.
Quote: I mean, I can see myself recognizing these things and making the effort to have better relationship skills, but I don't ever see my W doing the same thing. And while all these things are good things, what good are they if only one person is employing them?
I'm feeling the same way. I'm debating on going back to my C (see my thread for details) but I feel like, why, what's the purpose if my H doesn't have the same goals as me.
Quote: So where does that leave me and my sitch? Pretty much the same as it ever was. I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm hurt...the whole gamit of emotions. I feel sorry for my W whose life up until October 2005, was very stable but now is nothing but turmoil. I resent that I feel as though I've put forth so much and now get very little recognition.
I also feel this way but I also resent the fact that my H makes me feel like this is all my fault. Like I am a moody, psycho. Instead of working with me I feel like he is working against me. I maybe should read 5LL again, but why? I feel like nothing I do or say makes a damn bit of difference. I have a real hard time doing the "act as if" thing, the happy cheerful little housewife. When I do this then I feel like it is giving him permission to continue with his secret life.
Anyway, I am in the same turmoil as you. My head is swimming. I backslide at least every other week. I question why I even bother saving my M. I wonder if I should be on meds.
The only thing that I am certain of is this sucks! Try to have a good weekend and keep busy so you are not thinking about W and what she is or isn't doing. I know, easier said then done...and keep venting here. There are so many wise people that offer really good advice. Take Care, Mama
Thanks Mama for your reply. It does help in some way to know that we are not the only ones to go through this.
I was reading up on your sitch and I understand your dilemma. That being said, it still may be wise for you to seek out counseling if for nothing other than to get yourself "together." I myself have been debating about this for several months and still haven't taken the plunge, but there are days when I question whether I can continue on without that insight.
Quote: I also feel this way but I also resent the fact that my H makes me feel like this is all my fault. Like I am a moody, psycho. Instead of working with me I feel like he is working against me. I maybe should read 5LL again, but why? I feel like nothing I do or say makes a damn bit of difference. I have a real hard time doing the "act as if" thing, the happy cheerful little housewife. When I do this then I feel like it is giving him permission to continue with his secret life.
Yeah, I can identify with the last part of your statement. Truthfully, I find it hard to play the "role" of happy husband when I know that things aren't so "happy". Yet, I still try if only to save my sanity, but also that of my girls and my W.
As for our S's making us feel like we've "made" them seek out the A, I guess to be fair, they are merely projecting their negative emotions onto those they feel closest to. They feel guilty, they are overwhelmed and they are afraid to take a good close look at who they have become. Its easier to lash out at others than it is to reflect upon oneself. To a large degree, I do this as well. I think this is why it is so important for us to focus only on what we can change, they things that we ourselves can only control.
Thanks again for replying. You too try to have a good weekend!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Have you been talking to OT? This sounds a lot like something she said to me once:
Quote: I guess to be fair, they are merely projecting their negative emotions onto those they feel closest to. They feel guilty, they are overwhelmed and they are afraid to take a good close look at who they have become. Its easier to lash out at others than it is to reflect upon oneself.
This is so true. When he sees the pain he has caused it causes him to look at himself, and he hates himself and what he has done. He gets angry and lashes out because he doesn't want to look in that mirror yet. I need to try not to take things so personal I quess. I did leave a message for my C. She once told me to repeat 20 times a day, "If I try to fix it, I will only make it worse" I need to start pounding that into my head again because as you I will do almost anything to keep my family together. My 3 kids do not derserve this. I don't want them to be hurt or feel insecure I want them to grow up in a happy and stable home. So...I will not give up!!
