The denial that there are other issues that she does not want to or will not face.
I believe this is true in m W's sitch as well. I know that we can't make them acknowledge those issues, but we can validate the issues when and if our W's even come close to talking about them. I've come to learn if we recognize those times, by being an empathetic friend that we can have the most positive influence on our R's.
But I do have several activities planned with the kids. But that is a different kind of fulfilling portion of my life.
Take the joy where you can get it and remember that your kids need a happy and healthy R w/you. You're actually helping to shape their future!
circumstances are only temporary... character is forever...
Quote: That is a perfect example of what happens when one is undifferentiated and unable to hold onto oneself.
Undifferentiated? I guess that depends on how you mean that. I have many unique characteristics that are distinctly mine. I believe my confusion stemmed from having too many components! Alot of things hit me very hard and began generating a new 'self', these developing qualities warred (unnecessarily I might add) with the others I was shedding. Yes. I was (and sometimes still do) struggle to keep a firm hold on 'me'. Quite honestly, at that time, I didn't even recongnize 'me'. And though I am still struggling in ways I have found in coming out of my chrysalis that my sense of 'self' increases everyday. And what I find particularly satifying is my ablitites to set fresh R boundries with my H... and in doing so am earning his respect in my own right from him.
So Cobra -- Don't you believe that a person (Even the most 'together' people out there; of which I am NOT one! haha) can go through 'transformations' in their lives that make them unsure of the direction they are traveling? That they have to struggle and labor to find their way out of that dark tunnel? That sometimes they may lose their sense of 'self' for awhile? (And yes, even do stupid things along the way)
Differentiation refers not to being "different" in the world at large, but to whether you and your partner can tell where you end and the other begins.
A Schnarshian (referring to Schnarch, the author of Passionate Marriage, Resurrecting Sex) therapist that my bf and I went to gave us these guidelines for being differentiated...
I started to write them out, but they're so important and apply to everyone here, so I think they deserve their own thread.
As posted, the interactions (kissing etc) have been less than lack luster and the message I am getting loud and clear is "I am here do not expect anything from me." This hammered home clearly this morning while I nuzzled her neck before leaving and she shrugged me off and said stop. No initiation of sex b/c she is on mer period.
I had to email her schedules with the kids tonight (sounds like we are already S/D) and signed them as usual, Love Ya. All the emails came back with short responses and nothing in return. So the confrontation I am seeing is the asking if she has made a decision by her actions. Possible responses:
1) "it is my busiest time of year. I do not have time to think about making those resoponses." Me: I understand that and can see you being professional with your clients but I do not think that is an acceptable reason ingnore my statement at the end of the email.
2) "You are asking for a reponse that I am unable to give." Me: I stated that you have time, but again I have stated that I am unable to remain in a loveless, non-affectionate relationship over the long run.
3) "I should not have to say it, I am here arn't I?" Me: I understand that you are here, but in light of the past two weeks when I extend to you to repair and build our relationship, the lack of a response or a negative reaction kicks up my fear of loss and facing the ending of our marriage. These are my fears to own and deal with and I am able to do so.
Or I can let it slide again, and just deal with me.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Thanks for the translation. I haven't read Schnarch yet so was taking it in the literal definition.
Quote: to whether you and your partner can tell where you end and the other begins.
I can see where that might be a problem. But isn't that PART of a life-long R with someone? In the spiritual sense you become 'a part of each other'. It's only when one partner or the other goes through a crisis that that connection can prove the problem. I believe my/our problem came when alot of factors converged on our R at the same time. And believe me it hurt when our connection began renting apart! It threw me into a tailspin and I reacted out of pain. Then the whole R went into a flatspin. We've pulled out of the dive... now we just need our bearings to get back on course. I would be very interested in reading the thread you are putting together...
I'm going to post on my own thread... had a VERY interesting weekend...
I am going through the same issues with kissing... and it drives me crazy. I miss kissing my H. And up until now never realized how much it meant to me...
That said; have you ever tried NOT going in for that kiss? Or when you both go in... turning your head just a little. She's expecting the kisses to come from you, therefore she can act aloof; hurt you. Change it! Act like you don't care! My H would do that... leave all the 'approaching' to me and at times would turn his head at the last second. I gave him a taste of his own medicine; not vendictively, just 'matter of fact'. It only took a couple of times then H was wondering WTF? Now I'd say it's a 50/50 thing with us. Get tired of chasing F4W. But I'm with you... I sometimes obsess about kisses (I'm talking real kisses)... and lately about the sex issue.
You can take this for what it's worth (this is what I do) but when you find yourself obsessing over that or confrontations or whatever; change the channel. Find a different station that's pleasant; enjoyable, whatever that may be for you... and stay there... don't let anybody mess with that remote!
Also, in alot of your thread; I've seen you have 'possible' convo's with your W. You have them all worked out and they haven't even happened! I used to do the same thing and it drove me CRAZY! Don't do that! If you want to have the convo, have it, but don't have the dialog all figured out before hand or you'll hear what you've already decided it's going to be. You'll never know what the answers are going to be unless you ask them... (I know... up until this weekend I was a the biggest 'head in the sand' person on here!) Things changed alot this weekend...
Well she called before I read. She wanted to confirm a schedule. I asked if there was something I should be reading in her actions. She seemed baffled (pun of course). I said your responses in my emails, did you not read the endings? She said she did so what. I said "oh".
W: I was in the middel of doing 5 other things, how am I supposed to remember to say ILY in an email. Me: I do not have that answer, I was just seeing if I was supposed to be reading into it or not W: Of course you are, it is what you do. Me Oh W: When are you dropping off kids? Me: I thought I said 4:45 in my email. W: Van it be later? Me: No, I thought I explained I need to be at the field at 10 to 5 b/c kids are showing up W: Well make it late as you can. Me: I will try, but most likely it will be at 4:45. W: OK I have to go Me: Yup me too.
I do not know if I picking a fight or just tired of being treated like a roommate!
Who knows
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
How long would you guess you’ve been in this control mode, trying to “read” into your wife’s messages, preplanning how conversations should go, as Baffled noted, and pushing to repair the marriage? Probably years I would guess. Now that you are trying to make a change in yourself, trying to differentiate, do you think it reasonable for her to suddenly miss after only a week of so. If she needs breathing room, she will enjoy the space for a while. Every time you push, she will enjoy the space again when you back off. You are not letting her get anywhere near the point of missing you.
This type of behavior is also not differentiating. Look at Lil’s list. You are very much trying to place as much influence as possible on her to work on the marriage, without being overtly pushy. But she knows what you are doing and is explicitly saying so. Why don’t you just listen to what she tells you. When she gets to the point of “missing” you, she will throw out the signs.
The other aspect of this is your also know what you are doing. You have way too much to do with yourself to worry so much about her. And working on her will do no good anyway. I see this as THE critical point, where the rubber meets the road. This is where you must take the leap of faith. You commit yourself to the M without any guarantee of what she will do. There is no way to know how she will respond for sure, but one thing is guaranteed, if you don’t take the leap it won’t matter whether she does or not.
If you get hurt, you’ll survive. You were already on the path to divorce. So stop focusing on the potential pain and fear. It will only hold you back. Take the leap.
As for what your wife wants in the marriage, you say one possible response is:
3) "I should not have to say it, I am here arn't I?"
I assumed you say this because you’ve heard her say it, right? If so, she is telling you something. She is staying in the marriage, but cannot admit why she wants to stay, which is what you really want to hear. How much more comfortable and secure would you feel if she said she is scared, she doesn’t want to leave, she can’t live without you? You’d feel a lot less anxious. But knowing what you do about differentiation and holding on to yourself, can’t you see this would only be a temporary situation? Eventually she will get resentful and being held under your control and the fighting would start up again. So why would you feel good about hearing this? Why are you pushing so hard to hear it now?
F4W: I'm with Cobra on this. You are really stuck on predicting what she will say or do, and interpreting her actions and words. A person can go crazy with indecision if they are constantly analyzing their distant spouse. BTDT.
And I have to comment on your tagline: "Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return." What if you don't? Unless you're speaking about that warm feeling you get when you give with absolutely no expectation of any response from the object of your love, which some people get from their faith in God, I think this statement is flawed. Human nature is such that, if we don't get some sort of positive response from our actions, we'll eventually stop. If we honestly give our love to someone who just takes and takes and is basically unaffected by our honest giving of love, where is the tenfold return? Is it in the feeling of superiority we have when we can tell our friends and family, "I gave and gave and she was cold as ice"?
I think a more accurate statement might be, "through honest giving of my love, I may receive tenfold in return, or I may end up with nothing, save for the knowledge of who is truly able to love me in return."
I have a feeling this one is going to be locked soon, so I am starting a new post. I am intrigued here, also a bit perplexed. I hope that the discussion can continue on the next thread.
