Motivated by Happy Giant's Post

[Cobra]

F4W,

I had to deal with the same anxiety. The best way I found to deal with this was but to be upfront and discuss the issues. The problem was in overcoming the manner in which we held discussions. The typical pattern was that hey turned into grievance sessions in which each of us tried to have our set of grievances take priority, and therefore be addressed by the other person. We were trying to put our needs first. Obviously that went no where.

This is why detachment and differentiation is so important, as Lil is describing. By walking of the battlefield, who do not worry about whether she will address your needs. If she does, great. If not, then ok too. You address them yourself. So in discussion, neither of you have to play the grievance game and you can focus on the core issues without getting emotional. You might find that deep within her defenses she wants the same things as you.

Since you two are both controllers, you both need to learn to listen to each other through mirroring and validation. Schnarch disagrees with this method, but my rationale is that for couples as strongly dysfunctional as yours and mine, the jump to true differentiation and self soothing is too much to make at once. It requires a certain leap of faith that your partner will do the same and not leave you out to dry. It is too scary. Like jumping into cold water, some will pace around forever before getting in. They experience the same cold as if they jumped, but they lost a half hour of swim time due to nothing more than fear. In a damaged relationship, this “wait time” can create even further damage. Both parties MUST see signs of forward progress right away. At first I do not think it matters if that path is the optimal one or not. The point is to get moving.

Validation and mirroring is a way for the two of you to re-enmesh (very anti-Schnarch), but in a controlled, healthy manner. You gain comfort because she says that she hears you and understands your fears. This does not mean she agrees with your views, so you have to stand on your own feet to an extent, but to me it is a happy medium. As things settle down, the two of you can proceed toward a truer differentiation a-la Schnarch without having to take that scary leap of faith on your own. You can try to reach a point where the both of you can make the leap together.

As for right now, step back and take a look at your beginning post on this thread. See how far you’ve come in such an amazingly short time? To me it is incredible. Just last week you were dancing along with a plan in mind, headed straight over a cliff that you didn’t even know was there. Now you are worried because you are walking along its edge and it seems scary. Do you really want the bliss of ignorance? Progress is being made. You have no idea what is going on in her mind either. You cannot eliminate risk, only minimize and control it. External assurance that risk has been eliminated is false and changeable. That is why you must depend on yourself and yourself only for this assurance.

Have you ordered Schnarch? I suggest buying two copies.

(Dadgummit, going to post and Lil’s already got her reply up! )

[Fighting4Wife]

Lillie,

I bet I can keep up with you on the attempted mind reading and planning.

Yep that is me. Always has been and one of those things if I eliminated the "possible scenario" approach to the interactions, I will be better off.

I can really say that in retrospect, all that type of thought process kicked in with the realization she could cheat. At that point I went into the full court press and defend every possible move she could make. I see that as the intial start to the situation that I am in now.

If I had known then, maybe there would be a different scenario.

In making the statement about being here and hearing her, I am not ready. Not for any other reason than, I am unsure of myself to react in a better way than before. I need to be certain I have that under control. I do agree that it has to happen soon.

As to her leaving. I have faced that demon before and face it again. The difference is this time, I do not care. I mean that in a positive way. I will be hurt, anxiety, fear blah blah blah, but I also know I am on a path that is helping me grow.

Cobra,
I agree on the mirroring and validation points. Eases the tension. Prior to this was "slash and burn" discusions on my part. Dismiss her views or poke holes in the logic and supplant them with my views. Not too controlling eh? . Hence when recently I have tried to get her views she closes down.

So I have to earn that talk. Also like I stated earlier, I am unsure I am ready. Although I would love to find out what is going on, I need to trust myself to act acoordingly.

I am looking for the book right now. Seeing if it is a local Bookstore here, otherwise it is off to Amazon.

Thanks for the comment about growth. I feel that the initial DBing mantras were good, have gotten me here. But I am one that needs a good boot to the head or azz (I have been told they are inseperable! )

F4W

[Fighting4Wife]

Ok Quiz time. Looking for how I did.

I have to get S7 from W work. I walk in say hi. She is entering in an invitation to an engagement on her computer, do not ask what it is, none of my business. She says S7 is in other office. He wants to play a bit more on the computer. I go back into her office and sit down:
M S7 wants to finish a game. How is your day going?
W Busy as usual trying to get things done.
M Sure looks like it, TGIF
W Goes into what else I need to do in regards to sons.
M Yup got that, thanks. If you would like it might be easier for me to pick up S4 and take him to practice and that way you will be able to get to S10 event from work.
W What? Whatever! It is not a big deal. Fine if that is what you want to do.
M It might just be easier.
W Let me know.

She is shuffling papers like mad right now. Restacking things she has already stacked. Try and make soem chit chat. She gets the big sigh and poosture and rolls eyes to sky.

M Well it looks like you are really busy I will get S7 and get going (nicely)

W Yes I am, sorry, but tying to get things done. Make sure you bring S7 back in so I can say GB. (Grrrrrrr like I would just take him!)

I bring S7 back. Big ordeal and GB. I stand at doorway, she is now BSing with assistant. Opps must have finished stacking those papers

Say and wave GB.

5 Minutes later, cell phone rings. Reminding me to pick up S7 friend at day care. I say yup got it covered.

W: You might want to get him early.
M: Just what I was planning so I can get yard mowed before practice.
W: Good, well gotta run and get back to work.
M: OK see you later

I thought I did good. Fought back a lot of respnses I wanted to say. The anxious feeling of being dismissed in her office came in the truck. I need to do better in that area. Amazing the "attitude" towards me, but again I may read too much into that. Maybe not.

Easier than I thought, but I did prepare myself before I went in knowing I was not going to step onto the battle field.

F4W

[Lillieperl]

Well, you get an A from me!

Geez, I gotta tell ya, I laughed out loud at the gyrations your W was going through! The deep sighs, eye rolling, I'm so busy, I have the weight of the world on my shoulders... what is she, a cardiac surgeon in the emergency room in a war zone-- and the pre-empting you by correcting you in advance for something you might accidentally consider forgetting to possibly think about-- yikes!

But how did YOU feel, hovering above the chess board instead of running rampant and kicking her pieces to the ground? I'm not saying this method will bring instant serenity, but it is breaking a pattern. And when you fail to react to her, you are in control of yourself and, frankly, of the situation.

You said

The anxious feeling of being dismissed in her office came in the truck. I need to do better in that area.

Sometimes with an unpleasant feeling like this, it's possible to let it go sooner if you can avoid attaching words to it, or a story, or "meaning." You can say to yourself, "I have a knot in my stomach, my mouth is dry, my head hurts"-- occupy your mind with describing the feeling physically in a sort of detached way, but AVOID creating a many-worded story, "She did it to me again, I'm really losing my grip, but she makes me so mad, I just wanted to slam the door in her face, why does she keep treating me like this," etc. All of those words won't contribute one speck of understanding, and will just serve as glue to keep the bad feeling stuck to you longer. Acknowledge the feeling and then permit it to fade as you go on to doing something else.

You have a rock solid foundation inside of you that no one can shake.

<Shaking my head> This scene is right out of a sit com...

[Cobra]

F4W,

I starting to get the impression you have some OCD in you as well. You are hyper focusing on her every move, trying to find some grain of affirmation that she will not leave the marriage. This is suffocating her. You are now trying to find that same affirmation here by asking us to approve of your actions. Can you see this?

In all fairness, I can see you are working hard at trying to differentiate. You are not engaging, which is great, but you are still experiencing a lot of anxiety. So chill out dude! Go take a few hours this week end all by yourself and go sit on some hilltop and just listen to the wind blow. Do nothing else. Just clear your mind, away from the house. You said before that if you two divorce, you will be fine with that. Are your sure? I don’t think you have really settle on what you want. You need a little time to digest everything that’s gone on this week. Take a break to clear your head.

Then after a few days you might see things in a better light and be able to PLAN what your next move should be. Right now you are just REACTING.

As Lil said:
<Shaking my head> This scene is right out of a sit com...

The sad thing is that I was there too not so long ago….

[Fighting4Wife]

Lillie,

Well these gyrations are nothing new lately. You should see when se renacts the scenes from "Scanners" when they hole their heads like they are going to explode!

Not dismissing her feelings but it is a sight!

I felt good hovering! Honestly, I felt the twinge in my leg to start kicking those pieces. But knwoing what I might face and dealing with it prior, helped a lot.

In fact the second phone call had a different candor to it. Not sweet, but not condensending either.

I do attribute some of this to her job, not making excuses for her behavior because it is her behavior. But although she like to portray she can handle anything, in her job the stress will drive her into super-b*tch mode. Been living with that fo 10 years each year at this time. If things were better (of course I woould not have been here learning) I might call her on that and say:

"W I did not cause the stress of your job and I do not deserve to get the brunt of your frustration with it. If you want to take it out on me please let me know in advance so I do not read it as something I have done".

But right now, vent away W, if that turns your crank go for it.

Ooops better go pick up S7's playmate before the National Guard shows up at my door!

F4W (who needs to get a louder alarm on his PALM device thingy!)

[Fighting4Wife]

Cobra,

I am not seeking affirmation here rather seeing if I am on the right track.

Trying to illicit feedback from those, who have been here and done that.

I am screwed up, but not that screwed up.

As to getting away from it all, I do that. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Cobra]

F4W,

Sorry, I guess I took it the wrong way. Hang in there and have a good weekend!

[Lillieperl]

I'm glad you felt good hovering over the board instead of getting into it with her chess pieces. THAT is self-control and what Schnarch calls "holding onto yourself." But now I'm going to suggest a refinement of this.

F4W wrote:

I might call her on that and say:

"W I did not cause the stress of your job and I do not deserve to get the brunt of your frustration with it. If you want to take it out on me please let me know in advance so I do not read it as something I have done".

But right now, vent away W, if that turns your crank go for it.

I suggest that you not react to her at all when she's being rude, not even with a statement like this. To me, this is just a milder, more civilized way of policing her, letting her know that YOU know what she's up to and you're not having any of it. You still have one foot on the chess board. I think you have to give up being the Wife Police and the Relationship Police, at least until you shatter some patterns.

As an experiment, just try not reacting to ANYTHING that she says or does that is inflammatory, moody, rude, martyr-ish. Don't YOU be rude; just don't react at all beyond a simple: "oh."

Try not asking her ANY questions. Make only statements and no matter how she reacts, just agree with her. When you ask her a question, even a simple one like, How was your day? Do you want me to --? Can I help you by --? What did you want me to do with --?" you are opening the door for her to let you know how much she is suffering because of you. Don't go there.

Just try it for a weekend or a week or so-- no questions, only friendly statements... I think this might help clear out the debris of mood, inflection, touchiness, snapping, etc.

So instead of saying: "Do you want me to pick up Johnnie from day care?" you say, "I'm picking up Johnnie at three."

If she says, "How many times do I have to tell you that on Friday, you are supposed to pick up J at FOUR!?"

You say, "Oh."

Instead of asking her: "What time are you going to be home tomorrow. I was planning to --" say instead: "I'm making a roast for dinner tomorrow night. It will be ready at seven. It's a new recipe and I think you'll love it."

Or "I'm going to mow the lawn when I get home tomorrow and then I'll go out and pick up Chinese food. I'll get your favorite pepper steak for you."

If she says, "Well, I hate roast and I won't be home until eight," you say: "Oh."

If she says, "I found out I'm deathly allergic to peppers, don't you remember-- what are you trying to do, kill me?" you say: "Oh."

Let her be the one to throw the rocks or pebbles and do not react with anything except equanimity and kindness, no matter what. I predict she will exhaust herself when she "gets" that all the negative energy is coming from her.



I don't think you're checking in too much here. Anyway people do check in a lot at first and at different times... I think you just caught cobra at a slightly off moment. Besides, if you really were obsessive, it would do no good to tell you to simply stop, any more than you can tell a depressed person to just "snap out of it." I thank you for the opportunity to make suggestions, especially when it involves creating dialogue, which I enjoy doing.

[Fighting4Wife]

Should of read before I got home tonight. Was out of town. Tried to make chit chat and got the I am so tired routine and you want to talk. I said I know talking when you are tired is the worst. Left the room.

Wortha try Lillie. Heck it will do me good to detach some more. It will be good for her also.

PS I love roast and peppers YUM!

Well here is to a serene Sunday.

F4W