First, I am cheating on this board. By that I mean I have started posting in SSM portion of this. I felt that the relationship was on firm enough ground to try and delve into some of the issues in the bedroom that are leading to issues outside the bedroom (oops, I was a bit premature Pun Intended )
In doing so I got some sound advice. In that advice I have realized that my wife and I have reached "critical mass" in our relationship. I could continue to withdraw and be unhappy and have doubts and jealousy or I can state exactly where I am at and force the issue (Michele's LRT). By giving my W a "credible threat" that this marriage will end if there is not loving, caring, and meaningful physical contact between the two of us I have outlined the exact specifics that I need to be able to give her what it is she wants. She has to face the reality that her request for D will be accepted and you better not be usung a scare technique to get me to back off. She responded with her feelings and issues. Granted we are now at a crucial time and stakes are high. But IMHO, now is the time where we both will be thinking of what we are willing to sacrifice and thow away. It may just be she is unable to get back.
So we have now laid it all out there(though I am sure they may be more she is not sharing). At this point we need to be able to have meaningful discussions about the issues at hand. The letter was my attempt at starting that line of converstaion. It is inevitable that these issues need to be addressed IMHO. I wanted here to know that I do understand her POV and have been neglectful in meeting those needs or dealing with those issues.
Her response can be taken several ways. I take it (and I think most of you do also) is "Thanks for the words" means do not tell me....show me.
So I am doing that. I have backed off, for now. The dynamic of BOTH meeting expectations must be in place. Right now she is in coast mode. In fact she has been in coast mode for the better part of this year. I am not saying I have the "right" answer to this problem, but I can say I am not staying in limbo anymore. Sometimes clear expectations need to be made known.
Updating...
Very little contact with W yesterday, which is good. She is waiting for me to move and press. I will not, almost did (discussed in a minute).
Went to my best friends house last night, the one I called Friday to see if I had a place to stay as I was leaving my M. He and his W and I had a long 3 hour talk over everything (except A). They were not suprised and were amazed at what I have gone through and am doing. They asked why I have stayed so long. I replied I honor the vows that I have taken and believe that God is working here for some reason I cannot know. Well I ended up staying until 11:00 PM. I drug myself home, emotionally spent. I walk in and W says I was just trying to call you, you said you would not be late. I replied, I did not take my cell with me. ( was this not the fuse that was lit the other night when she did not come home?) I ask if she would mind if I came to bed. (usually I wait until she is asleep, it is just better, I do not have the urge to initiate any contact and she falls asleep quicker). She replied No, what kind of question is that and gives the I am pissed and tired of this sigh. I say thanks, and get into bed. I apologize for being late and did not mean to make her worry. She replies I was not worried. I ask for a GN kiss (sorry folks but I am not going to not kiss my W GN) she grunts and says come here and gives same sigh again. I start to bite, what is wrong. She replies nothing, do not do this, not tonight. I just lay there and go to sleep.
Not much conversation in morning. I relate some stories about my night and the convo about friend's kids (we were like god parents to them) she is not interested by her responses and actions. I get kids ready. Give her a kiss GB, which was a peck, and returned for a better one (again, I am giving space BUT I will not be dismissed).
I get to work and my cell rings, it is W:
Me: Good Morning W: Hey what time did you get the kids up? was it 6:00 M:6:30 W:They said 6:00 M: I turned the lights on at 6:20 and went back and got them up at 6:30 W: That is too soon. I do it at 6:40 M: SILENCE, stunned and pissed this is now a topic of conversation. W: Hello? M: Hello. W Don't you think? What do you think on that? (In a much nicer tone now) M: That is fine, I was up and just wanted to be able to have them ready so it would not be a problem. W: Well they are tired and they had to sit around for 20 minutes until I was ready. S: OK
She goes on about some stuff for tonight and kids are noisy in van. She just says she will call me later.
I am sure there will be more baiting, if that is what it was, before long.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
If the whole kid wake up thing comes up again. I would not stand for it. "I am their Dad and I woke them at a time that was convenient for me and would give them ample time to be ready." No more discussion. You are their parent too.
Ditto what karen said, or better so as not to dignify such an inflammatory comment with a response), I'll repeat the advice I gave to Lou (and I think to hairdog) when their W's tried to pick a fight with some lame comment like your W's. To that sort of comment, the only appropriate response is
Quote: "Oh."
So the kids had to wait 20 minutes-- let them study their spelling words or something. Don't bite when bait like this is presented to you.
When and where do the relationships go to get like this. One really should obtain a manual on perserving the relationship during the honeymoon. You need to read it before you have sex. I would have had plenty of time since she was to tired to do it. Hmmmmmm Maybe the first warning sign her drive was going to change with the ring on her finger?
Ooops bitterness and sarcasm!
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I think you are still sending some contradictory signals. You say you are trying to wait her out, which is good. Remember, you are the pursuer, she is the avoider. As long as you keep up the chase you are both comfortable. When you stop you both get panicky. Not calling her is to push her out of her comfort zone, letting her FEEL the consequences of her decision, not just hear words.
But when you kiss her, especially with the thought I am giving space BUT I will not be dismissed…. sorry folks but I am not going to not kiss my W GN, that says you are reacting to YOUR panic, contradicting your signal of keeping some distance, and then justifying it as some sort of entitlement. You are not entitled to anything. As soon as you start thinking this, you put yourself in the one-up position. She now becomes obligated to you. No wonder she says she wants distance from you.
Keep up this line of thinking and her need to avoid your control tactics will outweigh her need for you to chase her. You are hurting and deceiving yourself. Furthermore, entitlement thinking builds resentment, which she will feel. Then you feel you have a need to get even, for her to make amends. When she doesn’t apologize you get angry, but really the anger is directed at yourself because you pushed her into that corner. Nothing good comes from this way of thinking. Just drop it, drop the self righteousness ( I replied I honor the vows that I have taken and believe that God is working here for some reason I cannot know). Learn humility.
Don’t confuse the Alpha Male assertiveness that Blackfoot preaches with what you are doing. The two are not he same. Your actions are covertly subjugating and controlling of your wife. His actions are to display the male confidence, just like a strutting peacock. But the peacock does not force the hen to comply. She accepts or rejects of her own free will.
First, I agree that that request and action was due to the situation and the panic. Fully admitted and need that smack on the head. But the flip side of that was I did see my actions going south and did stop when she thrw up the warning flare.
If the space that my wife is referring to is the constant need of affection, but is comfortable with GB and GN kisses, even spontaneous ones, often initiates them (GN and GB), though sometimes feels it is a duty, it is nonetheless something that she is comfortable with and has commented on that.
As to entitlement, I see that perspective, but where is the deliniation between entitlement and interactioon. By that I ask, by not initiating contact, am I not then compromising my needs and allowing an affectionless marriage to exist? And in doing so am I not allowing entitlement to happen for her. I am entitled to not kiss my H, not hug, my H and if he does than I am going to be pissed off because he is doing it?
Agreeed entitlement builds resentment. A key issue in our relationship right now.
As to the humilty comment, I have humilty.
The comment about my vows is strong with me. They were not at one time when I was the person running away. Since I have come to identify a large portion of my issues, I have come around to place great faith in those vows.
The pursuer/avoider dynamic. If I am understanding this right, has little bearing. If anything she wants the pursuing to stop so she can stop avoiding. Now if that means stopping all affection, contact, sex, converstaions, than that is the edge of the cliff I need to stare. I will not be party to that. second thought not party to that for long. I am sure that if that would generate positive reslut for a short term hiatus, than I am able to oblige. But not for the long term.
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Look, you two are in the crucible right now. Do you want her to make the “right” choice, which means she must push herself to choose something uncomfortable, something that she has not done for you. What incentive does she have to make an uncomfortable choice if you are keeping her comfortable? The pain of the choice must be less than the pain of staying where she is, right? That is a logical decision. You are making her choice illogical. You are sending conflicting signals. If she wants to have affection then she needs to choose the marriage. To drive that point home, she needs to feel the discomfort of not having that affection. That is part of what will make her uncomfortable, plus you will be honoring her request for space.
If she truly is an avoider, then she may come to realize she is not happy with you keeping distance and withholding affection and that her request is contradictory to her wants. She will then have to do some introspection. In doing otherwise, you are preventing her from her own growth and ultimately coming back to you.
How can your wife want you to be affectionate with her and yet not have you pursue her at the same time? This doesn’t make sense to me. I think she wants affection, as do most women. I do not get the impression that she is the sexually aggressive partner, the one who initiates. She wants you pursuing. What I suspect she wants is for you to stop controlling. If so, your pursuit of control has pushed her to the point of detachment. She is scared to leave the marriage because that is not what she wants. She wants the security. But she cannot stay in a relationship dictated by your terms. So even in offering her the “choice” of staying or leaving, you still feel the need to push your entitlement of a good night kiss. Now how is it that you have humility?
Now if that means stopping all affection, contact, sex, converstaions, than that is the edge of the cliff I need to stare. I will not be party to that. second thought not party to that for long.
Just what does this statement mean? This sounds like black and white thinking. That type of logic is usually reserved for those who do not tolerate opposing viewpoints, who have an agenda and intend to push it. Its not so much what you say here (and I’m not really sure what you’re saying) but how you say it, along with other comments, that give me the impression you have an issue with control and this is driving your wife away.
I get the feeling you are trying to make her decide on working on the marriage under your terms, but offering lots of “sweets” to lure her in. She has probably been there before and is leery. So what you offer is not an open choice. That is conditional, so don’t be surprised if she rejects it.
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