Thanks you for the in-depth reply. I found it helpful.
You, as do most of us not entwined in the situation, can easily identify the major issues.
She has stated that verbatim: "I have to come home form work and start my other job."
To me this is perplexing. I understand it somewhat but on other levels find it perplexing.
When I have tried to be F4W outside the roles of father, dad, and husband she has stated that she does not want that. In fact she made a point of the other day saying, I have no desire to go away with you on a weekend to get away from it all. You are the problem and I am unable to get away from that problem.
I understand by doing more around the house will not solve the problem, in fact it starts the "game" of who does more. Even when I do out of caring.
There is baggage she has to check at the door and she does not want to right now.
In regards to the analogy of a worker not fulfilling job requirements, I agree for the most part. But the flip side is when an employee starts to shirk their assigned duties and tasks (BAD Phrases) then one has to point that fact out and the employee then has to make a choice. If they choose to continue to not meet their duties, then action needs to be taken. Usually by trying to help the employee identify why they want to continue to make those choices. I agree with the tediousness and boredom factors. But again, I can only influence so far by trying not to add to those by complaining. I believe that reality has hit home very hard now, and maybe too late.
I hate to box my W behavior with the all encompassing MLC tag, but I am inclined to do so. There are issues with her job, self esteem, perception of life in general, and the fact that she admits she was "all f'd up" when she had the affair. But by the same token her admissions are not worth much without action to correct or "fix" the issues behind the behavior. To that end I amd unable to help other than detach completely. Not my strong suit.
I am fully able to discuss myself and greatest fears, even in an environment where I may be torn to emotional sheds by her reaction. She on the other hand is not. At least not with me. I have a fairly extensive background in the mental health field, not an expert, but fair enough knowledge to understand the importance of what we are discussing here on the boards.
A comment on how I used to be compared to now. In the beginning I was a smart ass and very cocky. Over the years I still have those traits but not with my W. I am more reserved at home. Not saying a doormat, but rather trying to be more compassionate and less self centered. In the past months I have tried to encorporate some of those assertive traits again, but that has fallen into the controlling category. Again I see detachment as crucial. Still there, still supportive but not dependant on the emotional dependency on her.
Bottom line...I can survive without my W. I can move past this either way. But in her mind I am obsessed with her and every time I show caring, empathy, or concern I am pressuring. If I do not show those things I am pouting and unhappy. In that also I know that these are not my issues to deal with and may be her projection of her own issues upon myself.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I think that is a good letter. I still sense some defensiveness and some justification in it (that cockiness is still bleeding through a little). Reading your reply, I understand your sitch a little better and it sounds like you’ve got your work cut out for you. You mention past behavior being control oriented. I’m the last one to fault you for that, though it needs to be changed, as you know.
I can see Mojo’s point in giving some distance. It makes sense with what she says about you being the problem (whatever that means). But on the other hand you say she has a lot of issues and cannot stand being “torn to emotional sheds” by you (I assume). Can I read into this that she has some self esteem problems (not a hard guess based on her past behavior) and that you are trying to “fix” her (based on your cockiness and knowledge of the field)? If so, this might only exacerbate the avoider/pursuer roles you two seem to be playing out. It seems this is a major factor in your marriage right now.
Also, if you understand the mental health field, why haven’t you pushed for counseling? Didn’t she say she would do whatever you asked? Maybe you should put your focus on therapy and back off the pursuit. This seems to be the obvious thing to do since she is complaining about being around you too much.
I still think she wants you to pursue her, otherwise she would have left already. Could that partly explain why she was surprised when you told her you were going to leave the marriage? And about that… I think that was a mistake on your part, but understandable considering the chaos you were feeling. Nevertheless you sent mixed signals, so why should she trust you now? There must be other such mixed signals in the past that she is trying to interpret, and maybe she is coming to the same conclusion as you, that these are all attempts at manipulation? That must all be so much more difficult to reconcile with her wanting distance but wanting pursuit (assuming she wants pursuit). No wonder she seems f’cked up.
So how are you going to prove to her things are different now, that she can get the breathing room she needs, become comfortable enough to open up and maybe get into counseling? Upon learning more from you, it sounds to me like your counselors original recommendation was pretty much on target, saying you needed to give her space. What did you really hear in that statement to make you quit going? I can understand her wanting to quit, but I am also assuming she has a lot more issues in her FOO (family of origin). This doesn’t mean you are any healthier. I suspect you two are equally dysfunctional. Her statements are trying to tell you that, but I keep getting the feeling you are minimizing your issues.
Quote: I can see Mojo’s point in giving some distance. It makes sense with what she says about you being the problem (whatever that means). But on the other hand you say she has a lot of issues and cannot stand being “torn to emotional sheds” by you (I assume). Can I read into this that she has some self esteem problems (not a hard guess based on her past behavior) and that you are trying to “fix” her (based on your cockiness and knowledge of the field)? If so, this might only exacerbate the avoider/pursuer roles you two seem to be playing out. It seems this is a major factor in your marriage right now.
Space is not a real issue except for the fact that for years she has had that space, and was unhappy. For several years we lived that routine. Limited contact, focus on ourselves, detachement, lack of physical contact and sex. Lead me into my own mess.
The emotional shreds refers to me being torn by her. Something I now simply stop by identifying that behavior to her.
Quote: Also, if you understand the mental health field, why haven’t you pushed for counseling? Didn’t she say she would do whatever you asked? Maybe you should put your focus on therapy and back off the pursuit. This seems to be the obvious thing to do since she is complaining about being around you too much.
I am in favor and have pushed for this. She will waffle, yes...no...do not need it...I would welcome it b/c they see my point.
She refused to go anymore after the 2 joint and 1 IC sessions. Stating she did not like how I acted and reacted in the sessions. This was also the time she was "involved" with OM. Answering before you ask, the way I acted was I was totally honest and opened up. Yes tears. Never yelling. Only accusation that I made was reference to her affair.
I agree she gave up before we could get into the meat and potatoes of the C.
As to her wanting pursuit, maybe. Not in any overwhelming degree.
I agree with the mixed message but I did want her to understand that I will not hinder the fact if she wants to leave. I will not be party to anything more than a business relationship if that happens.
Quote: So how are you going to prove to her things are different now, that she can get the breathing room she needs, become comfortable enough to open up and maybe get into counseling? Upon learning more from you, it sounds to me like your counselors original recommendation was pretty much on target, saying you needed to give her space. What did you really hear in that statement to make you quit going? I can understand her wanting to quit, but I am also assuming she has a lot more issues in her FOO (family of origin). This doesn’t mean you are any healthier. I suspect you two are equally dysfunctional. Her statements are trying to tell you that, but I keep getting the feeling you are minimizing your issues.
Basically right now I am not doing much of anything. I see the main actions that create a lack of space is wanting to intiate conversations or hugs or kisses. So I am going about the house and not engaging in those activities. I am now limiting phone and email contact to just family oriented issues or logistics.
As to the C comment about giving space, it was not that as much as his statement (according to W) that he felt she would do just fine not married. Now this came out after we had quit counseling, so I can deny or confirm.
In regards to her FOO, if I understand the meaning, she has been the caretaker of everyone. Everyone counts on her and confides in her. Always. Now she does not want to have to be that caretaker for me.
Yes, Cobra, I am the first to say I am dysfunctional, yes broken home, yes to all the standard things. But the difference is I can cite all of my dycfunctions and am working on them. I am not sure she can, though I believe she could.
F4W, who now has bared his whole fricking soul to the cyber world!
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Actually, you and I are on the exact same page. Huh.
Okay. Using the employee analogy... as an employer, you put the errant employee on notice. You know as a good boss, that the willingness to step up to the plate now rests solely with the employee. To go in and 'do the work' for them NOW would make you part of the problem, rather than the solution. If they decide to get on board, there will be problems, sure, and you will help them as much as you are able, but the bottom line is, you know what you 'expect,' and are very clear on it... and you MUST know the bottom level of acceptable performance so you know IF they meet the stipulations of improvement within the stated time frame.
This is the same point you are at with your W. You know that you will be okay without her. You'd prefer that it not be that way. SHE knows there is a problem... if she choses to blame you... well... there really isn't anything you can do about that. That's just an excuse.
Now what you have to do is set the 'credible threat.' Very interesting theory has emerged called Game Theory... man won the nobel prize for it. Go look it up. He has done some really interesting work with human behavior and how the mind operates, and how people 'problem solve.' Fascinating, actually. Long story short is... you have to make it crystal clear to your wife that she is on 'notice.' But if you are not willing to walk away, or have not clearly defined what the acceptable bottom level performance is... SHE WILL NOT PERFORM. Period.
If you express your 'credible threat,' she WILL find her way... if she wants to keep the marriage. If she doesn't, she will leave. Neither of these things do you have control over.
Set the boundary. State the case and the consequence and then BACK AWAY. It would be a good idea for you to read Divorce Busting, I think, because there are lots of good things you could implement from that book that won't leave you completely stagnant... feeling like there isn't something 'tangible' you can do.
Long way of saying... you are at the EXACT place where you need to be to save your marriage. Treat your wife as a friend and other person living in your home. Cease all R talk. Put the whole marriage gig on hiatus. You can DO NOTHING until she decides she is going to WORK with you on making your M better. Just like the employee who has been put on notice.
She is CONFUSED. She knows there is a problem, but she is not completely 'geled' on what it is and why it is there. Only until she realizes she has complete control over 'fixing' the problem can you work with her. And she won't realize that until you give her no other option and become a credible threat.
Credible Threats, by the way, are not bad. They are what motivate every single one of us.
Read about Game Theory. Read Divorce Busting. I think once you do those two things, you will be very, very clear on what you need to do and how you will do it. Please let me know...!!
Have read the following: DR SSM Five Love Languages Men are from Mars His need Her needs KLA cds form Michele
Yes. Indeed I have read, but alas, not applied fully. I was just responding to an email from a friend here. He was along those lines. Back off. I have. I actually, I think, no I know, that I can do just that. I am fairly sure I have defined those boundaries with her and she is full aware of them.
I will seek out the Game Theory. It is just that right now.
Case in point I had to send a short email to W answering a question about plans tonight. She responded with I got it. So I know that she has received the email letter. Her thoughts at this time is I will pursue for an answer (past practice cheeseless tunnel whatever) and I will not.
I beleive my "threat" to credible, although Cobra senses a mixed message and I see his POV. But there is no denying, (hope not to arrogant) I will survive, I am able of finding someone who can meet my needs and I meet theres, BUT I chose my W over that option at this time. To quote a TV catch phrase now. Mrs F4W "Deal or No Deal".
As to the employee analogy. The part I find disturbing is right now we are in the employee blaming administration for lack of support and meeting there needs in the work environment. Key point is I would like to get to the point where the employee and administration agree there is a problem and work out the "plan of improvement" for both sides to succeed and have productivity. But that cannot be started until the employee wants to take ownership for their actions and desire to improve.
Thanks Corri!
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Yale economics professor Barry Nalebuff teaches game theory in his clases, which uses math to describe and even predict how people will behave in a whole range of situations.
"It [game theory] is the science of strategy. It's recognizing that the success of what you do depends on what other people do," Nalebuff said.
John Nash, the mathematician featured in the movie "A Beautiful Mind," won the Nobel Prize for his work in game theory, proving there's a way for everyone in a group to be happy with the outcome.
The credible-threat theory is part of what won the Nobel Prize for Thomas Schelling of the University of Maryland. According to Schelling, for a threat to work, you must have absolutely no doubt that it will happen.
It's why parental threats don't always control their kids' behavior. The kids know that when push comes to shove, the parents will cave and won't go through with their punishment.
But in a credible-threat scenario that worked, the Russians and the Americans so totally convinced one another other they would use nuclear weapons that neither side struck first.
Scientists are now finding that this 'Theory' works VERY well with human behavior. Read the first story, and you'll see what I mean. The second story was very interesting, too.
Quote: The credible-threat theory is part of what won the Nobel Prize for Thomas Schelling of the University of Maryland. According to Schelling, for a threat to work, you must have absolutely no doubt that it will happen.
Key phrase you must absolutely no doubt it will happen. In the past, speaking from my frame of mind, there has been doubt in her rants about D. NOW, there is a new feeling, this is a credible threat, thus my actions. Softly call that bluff by offering her the out and stating that I will not continue to remain in a non-loving, caring, affectionless, and sex as reward or duty marriage, and in doing so I am forced to make changes that need to keep me in "the game".
Hopefully Mrs. F4W can see a positive outcome can be salvaged.
F4W, who is now going to the store to buy whistles, air horns, and materials for signs so Mrs F4W can find him in their own house!
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Title of email: Got your email Message: Thanks for the words.
My reply: None Message: Game Theory ... L O A D I N G ...
This is fine as long as the dreaded Blue Screen Error does not come up!
Game Theory (DR/FLL/ All the rest):
What I need to do is not press. If she wanted to respond differently she would. Again, it was dose of more of the same, but with the twist I actually did admit and validate her ongoing points.
So what I need to do is be and that is all. There needs to be a cooling off period which I am sure she will not expect. It is good I have practice with my sons and going to a friends house after. More of me out of the house right now is better. But I need to be back in time to do some of my job descriptions.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
