I just read through your other thread. Sounds familiar. Actually I think you may be in a good place, as hard as that is to believe. It sounds to me like the both of you have come to the end of your rope. You have each completely detached, there are no more attacks, denials, or games. You can both easily admit to what you really want and what you each did to sabotage the marriage up to this point. There is nothing left to gain in withholding the truth. So you both need to just lay it all on the table. You’re going to lay everything else on the table with the divorce lawyers. You might as well talk things over between the two of you first.
What you might find, and Schnarch discusses this in chapter 13 – Couples in the Crucible: Reaching Critical Mass, is that this is exactly what you have needed to do all along. If you’ve been to counseling, this is the point the counselor is trying to reach.
Tell her how you feel. Ask her what she wants in a marriage, what would she want from this marriage? Be honest, don’t get angry, reveal your deepest feelings and see how closely your answers match one another.
Going way out here on the disclosure limb, which I see breaking under the disclosure and I land square on the Cobra Psychiatric Couch. The black one that looks earily familar to an Iron Maiden! LOL!
Here is what she wants in the marriage to date: Space (generic cop out) but defined by her having peace and alone time at home. Me not seeking affection, hugs, kisses, sex.
Freedom to go out and do things without me or the family. Illustrated each time she goes out turning into and extended time frame beyond what she tells me she will be home.
More help around house, this can be attained by me doing everything since I do a pretty good bang up job.
Sex with her H once a week and no pressure to have to "perform".
Now, most of these things I would be in support of if it were not for that one thig, her infidelity. BIG ISSUE. I did make the comment on Friday's "discussion" that trust and the right to go out and have drinks and such is earned not given freely. I have accomdated her in the past to have my boundaries tested and promises broken, So as controlling as they may sound, it is what I feel. Again the issue was tested and I was painted evil because a drink with a GF turned into a 3 hour ordeal and 1 hour of that was after her GF went home and another co-worker showed up.
My wants (aka the fairy tale marriage according to Mrs. F4W)
I want a wife I can feel comfortable with sapproaching as a friend and confidant and not be judged as in the wrong on issues all the time.
I want to have wife who can show affection and attention without it being asked for.
I want to be made to feel attractive and desired.
I want to not be "end ran" on discipline of our sons. If she has issues then we discuss them in private and not allow the kids to play on parent against the other.
I want to be able to have "adult converstaion" time where we can reconnect about issues in our personal lives. This is not sexual in nature!
F4W, straping into the Iron maiden now!
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
That’s a good start. Now, WHY do you want those things? How would you FEEL if you never had any of that ever again? Isn’t this how you felt when in your state of shock after deciding to get divorced? You need to peel down a few more layers.
I want these things because those things help to define a purpose that I am worthwhile in someone elses eyes. That I have meaning. That I exist beyond my job, my faherly duties. That I am not alone on this planet. That there is one that finds solice in me, takes the bad with the good.
If I never had these things how would I feel? I would feel alone. That the definition of my self is limited to my job and my kids.
Now hold on to the gavel a bit. I would not relinquish my father duties for the world. They are as important as anything if NOT more.
But there is more to complete a person that their job or possessions. Yes I could die today and I feel people would say he was a good father, a good administrator, and good husband. There is not self-esteem issues here, in fact probably more on the arogant side.
The shock of D, the discovery of my own lack of self control in seeking comfort online outside of my marriage and the reality of my W affair, did not leave me with those feelings all alone. With that came the baggage of self failure. Of breaking my own moral values and belief system. There was guilt, there was anger, there was self pity, there was much more.
But in regards to what has changed and how have I tried to affect change since those feelings emerged...
I have forgiven myself and my wife. I live each day with the vow that I will never stray from my vows until there are disolved by D. I will apply myself to find answers and support within myself first. I will not choke down my feelings when I feel there are issues. I speak of them directly and in a non-accusational tone. I will not be placated and I will hold myself to promises I make and expect the same in return.
Am I successful 100 % of the time, NO! But I recognize when I do not honor myself in following through and start again.
How is that for peeling (with a little explaination)?
All of which I have said to W but she hears "W you are not doing anything right. You need to do it more, do it better, and by God I come first!" out of my mouth.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
What I was trying to tell you is to bare your soul as you will have to do with your wife if you want her to hear you. I bet you can give me a list of all your wife’s problems, why she reacts the way she does, and maybe even where in her FOO this comes from. I also bet she can do the same for you. What she will want to hear is your acknowledgement of what she sees and dislikes in you. This doesn’t mean you have to agree with this viewpoint, only that you acknowledge she sees it.
There are usually numerous grains of truth in what others see in us, even if they do not see or understand the whole picture. Since the both of you are lowering your defenses, now is the time to level with yourselves. Tell her something like (just an example here) “When I used to try to control you it was out of fear of you leaving and my being alone and unloved. I truly love you but this panic overcomes me. It is something I am trying to recognize and change.” I say this not to drag up all your FOO, but only as an example of how deep I think you will need to get before she senses sincerity. Remember, she knows you better than anyone else and knows your BS before it even comes out of your mouth (and you know hers). She will want to see you make yourself vulnerable first before she will do so.
But if you can level with each other on this level of honesty, you both might be able to see each other in a new light and move forward. You will also need to understand your vulnerabilities so you can try to control how you respond when she tries to push your buttons (at least as well as you can).
I sent this from home last night because of your recommendations not to send sensitive materials over my server at work.
I want to take time to "bare my soul" per se, not to be construed as drama, but to try and establish communication with us without any misperception on tone of voice or body language, sometimes it is best to communicate in a different mode. This is in no way a response to anything over the past 24 hours, but rather to the turn of events to date.
I can only comment from my side of this situation, but there are several items I can see you point of view upon, I may not agree, but certainly do see your point of view on several items.
I am also aware that this is a very busy time for you, but also recognize that this is a highly important issue that compels me to send it during this time. I am also aware that this may be seen as pressure, but my intent is only to communicate and understand all the issues at play.
First of all, I know you know any BS that comes out of my mouth before I say it, as I do you, and so I am speaking from my heart.
Secondly I would like to again apologize for all my behaviors. In the past when I used to try to control you it was out of fear of you leaving and my ending up being alone and feeling unloved. I truly love you but this panic overcomes me. It is something I am trying to recognize and change. It is not because I enjoy drama nor fighting with you. Far from it. Admittedly, I'm not succeeding as quickly as I would like. But the reaction is understandable and the annoyance it creates for you.
I have come to acknowledge your perceptions of my behaviors and lack of ability at times to not hear you, or hear you and still make stupid mistakes. To that end, I need to recognize when I do that sooner, prior to doing it, and find a better course of action.
I have come to acknowledge your perception that I try and place "stamp" on you through my referring to you as my wife in our discussions, and to some degree your perception that I treat sex as a sign of ownership.
It is with great joy and honor that I refer to you as my wife. That is a realization that I have learned about myself. In the realm of sex..., I will not go into great detail because I do not want this to be solely about sex, but do also acknowledge and see your perception that it is all about sex. I agree it is a strong factor in my feeling safe and secure in our marriage but also it is one way of my expressing commitment and love for and to you, but not just a physical release, though at time I am sure it is about that factor. I will also state that I do recognize the efforts you have made to accommodate my desire. I will state that it is you alone that captures the object of my desire and sparks my interest in sex. That is not to say other things do not bring on that desire, but that you are the one I wish to share that desire with.
I recognize that my constant approach for affection has been an annoyance and childish. It is not different than a child who feels threatened and in trouble saying "But I love you mommy" or crying to be held. It is also, as stated previously, the main way I express my love and caring for you non-verbally.
I do not defend my actions, but will explain that I believe physical touch as a non-verbal way of saying, even though I am mad or displeased with you, it will be ok and/or we will get through this. But to deny this is no different than denying that reassuring hug or kiss that is heartfelt to sooth the fear in a child who has done wrong. I am not trying to say they are on equal levels, but the principle is the same, also not to say treat me as a child, although as I stated my actions can be construed as childish.
I will say that when this process started over a year ago, that I made a decision that I wanted each kiss or hug with you to be the best it could possibly be, to leave you with the feeling of my love. In doing so I projected that belief onto you and I unfairly judged you and your efforts because they were based on my beliefs not yours. This hit closer to home when Dr. Talbot died and I thought to myself, what was his last interaction with his wife like. What was the last impression he left.
I have come to recognize, after reflection, that even in my efforts to make a better decision in regards to your decision you need to make, I again inadvertently was controlling the situation. If you need 3 weeks to decide so be it, if you need 3 months so be it, if you need 3 minutes so be it. My intent was not to prolong your unhappiness nor mine for that matter.
On the issue of my unhappiness, you are correct but not to the degree that you may think. As stated I am in love with you, and unhappiness or displeasure with items in our relationship does not mean that I desire to trash everything and start anew. When I communicate to you about my unhappiness, I see where you find it to be "nagging", but if a person does not know what they are doing is perceived as something that is offensive or causes unhappiness (a complaint), how can one make change to avoid it the future? Admittedly I have not been stellar in that area and been selfish by not making my own changes to your complaints.
As I stated earlier, I am approaching this from my side of the fence. It might be beneficial in the future if we can discuss this and it can be a two way conversation, or maybe a letter from you might be your avenue.
(Wife), I feel that I am taking a great risk here in sending this. But it is a risk, I feel is worthy, because it is you, our marriage, and family at stake here, not as possessions or status symbols; Rather they are things that I have taken for granted in the past and I understand that I hold dear to my heart and have no higher caring for. In my mind there are no higher stakes that could be at risk.
Sincerely and with much love,
F4W
Last edited by Jamesjohn; 04/18/0603:46 PM.
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
I think your letter was honest and touching. I don't think it was a bad idea to express yourself in this way to your W but I hope you realize that you may not get the response that you would naturally desire. SoulMechanic (past poster) sent a similar letter to his wife when he was first on the BB and, heartbreakingly, got no response whatsoever from his W. Unfortunately, in order to get closer to your W, the best solution might not be to bare your soul in this manner. She might just take it as another way in which you are invading her space or asking more of her than she feels capable of giving. It's quite possible that you would be better served by backing off, not just physically, but emotionally from the relationship at this time in order to get some balance in the relationship. If you can't become LD for sex, you have to become as LD for the relationship as she is LD for sex before she is going to feel any motivation or space to move towards you. Unfortunately, though I believe that it is absolutely necessary for you to do this for the sake of your own happiness, you may find that your W prefers a relationship that is balanced at a very cool distance, but at that point you will be better able to make decisions that will best serve your needs.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
In honesty MoJo, I expect nothing in response. In fact if there is a response, it will be in a not very positive light. I am ok with that and have no real expectations.
There is some validity to your outlook on W perspective on the R. Although I am completely different in that regard.
Thank you for the perspective.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Sounds like you and your W have identified your problems, their sources, and are willing to look honestly at them. That is a good thing, like Cobra says.
Unfortunately, issues of an emotional nature are not always easy to fix, even if they have been identified. Unlike a 'problem' at work, or a 'problem' with your car... that can be identified, a solution drawn and then implemented... fixing emotional stuff is a bit more complex because they involve changing habitual patterns of behavior. Going off 'auto' pilot... thinking and being aware of yourself, your actions and your reactions 80% of the time, rather than 20% of the time or less than when in AP mode -- is challenging.
In short... it's HARD. Just like diets.
People don't like to do 'hard' things. (Except HD women -- <giggle> sorry, couldn't help it.)
Ahem. Now. Let me ask you a question. Would you ever get upset with an employee for NOT doing something you FAILED to ask them to do? Probably not. OTOH, you would get upset and rightly so... if they just stopped doing a part of their job description one day because they decided they don't want to do that part of their job anymore. However... most people STOP doing things because it is boring, no longer fulfilling, etc., etc., whatever. So, you would examine... why are you NOT doing this part of your job anymore? You don't want to do THIS... but... let me help you... what DO you want to do?
As a previous LDer... when affection became part of my 'job,' it lost its appeal. When it became an 'expectation,' and I got 'nailed' for not anticipating my H's need, I got very resentful. I had NO PROBLEM giving a hug when asked... had no problem asking for a hug... but when my normal means of personal expression was slowly turned into an expectation... ewwhh. My 'spontaneous' side dried up, for the arena in which I could ACT spontaneous went away.
Not saying I don't understand you wanting spontaneous affection and demonstrative physical expression from your W. But examine the atmosphere in which you live... is it really set up to be spontaneous? Uhmmmm.... most married households are not. You have jobs, you have kids, you have ROUTINES you live by everyday... you view the "HOME WORLD" in one way... and I bet your W views it in another.
When your W says she needs more 'space,' she is saying she wants to be away from job, family and ROUTINE. You doing more household chores is not going to solve this issue because the environment the two of you interact with one another is NOT changing, no matter WHO is cleaning the toilets.
Sounds to me like your W is more in MLC mode... an affair being part of that 'rebellion.'
I'd ask your W how she sees your HOME world. It is my guess that she may see it as just another 'place of employment.' Do you see what I am gettng at? YOU in the HOME, in this other place of employment of hers... makes you a part of her JOB description of wife and mother. You are no longer F4W, she is no longer just HER, interacting as two people who fell in love.
I am not saying she doesn't want her 'other job at home,' that she doesn't want to be wife and mother, and perform that job well...
She wants to have fun and LIVE LIFE as Sally (or whatever her name is)... not as Sally the Administrator, not as Sally the wife and mother... those are ROLES... she just wants to be SALLY.
THAT is who you need to find and BE with... and you need to be with SALLY, not as F4W the administrator, not as F4W the husband and father... but as F4W the man OUTSIDE those roles... the guy she met and fell in love with... do you remember him? Do you know how THAT guy thinks and acts and feels outside his role as professional, husband and dad?
Be 'professional F4W' at work. Be 'husband and father' at home. Be LOVER somewhere else, in someway else...
