MamaBear, Catching up on your sitch, just wanted to share that my story is quite similiar. My H BEGGED me for more sexual attention for years, and I would try to be what he wanted, but it never lasted, I really wasn't that into it, low self-esteem, poor body image, depression. Long story short, I was shocked when H and I started "working on things" that he wasn't that interested in sex. Why? MAJOR affair guilt, anger at me for rejecting him, and not believing that I was genuinely interested in him, in a sex life, in passion, he thought maybe it wasn't genuine change.
My point is that as we have become closer as friends, and some of the non-sexual intimacy returned, his drive and passion returned as well. So, I guess I am conferring with GH, maybe it is too soon, you told him where you stand and what you are wanting, give him the space to rediscover those feelings again. And, of course flirting and being sexy helps too!
Thanks Leslie, I really appreciate your stopping by. I too think guilt and leftover feelings from the A may play a part in this as well as his feeling that I was just not into him. Several times he has referred to my previous marriage, I think he is not feeling good enough like maybe I settled for him or something. Anyway, we did have a good sex life but once the kids starting coming it slowed down alot. Right now he is having a hard time remembering the good times and is probably guarding his heart from any future pain. I guess I really need to help build up his self esteem. So he feels comfortable around me again and that I mean what I say "That our R should be the #1 priority, instead of putting the kids and everything else first."
Thinking of learning how to rollerblade to get rid of some of my frustration
Does any of you ever question why you are putting yourself in this situation? Trying to rebuild a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
Several times I have told my H if he wants to leave, then go. But he chooses to stay. So don't you think that if he has decided to stay that he would want to work on having a better R?
I ask myself that probably a thousand times a day. I keep telling myself that it isn't the man I love that wants to leave, it's the Alien that has taken him. Sounds a little silly, but it works. I see him as so unhappy and confused that his brain has shut down and he's thinking instead with his arse. And yeah, if he were thinking with his brain, logic would make sense to yours and to mine. But as others have pointed out to me (over and over again) logic isn't working for them. Someday, the arse/alien might let go and they'll start seeing the light. Then maybe the logic of "If you want to stay, you should want to make it better..." might stick. It might not help you much, but it gets me through the critical moments. Until the day they realize working on it makes sense, it seems like we're kinda stuck. Hugs, TSO
As StrongOne said, I am not sure if logic is running the show with the WAS, especially in the beginning. Seems not. Nonetheless, I admire the WAS determination to do SOMETHING to try to get a handle on their lives when it felt unbearable or untenable to them the way it was. And the fact that the WAS did something that we wish they hadn't (like having an A) is irrelevant. But just like us, they are trying to figure out what is the "right thing" to do now. Maybe they feel like they made a big mistake, so they are trying not to make it any worse than it already is. And I believe that your H and many of the WAS are torn, deeply conflicted - because we have changed and we aren't the insane emotional demanding ones they remember. They are trying to figure out what is the best thing to do. They realize their emotions got the best of them, and they reacted perhaps with bad behavior, and they are trying to figure it out now so they don't make it worse. That's why it's so important that we stay logical and calm ourselves. They want to be logical and calm too, and if we encourage that environment, then they don't have to run away from us just to gain some sanity.
Patience, patience, patience. Your H doesn't really want to leave you, now that you are calm and supportive. He just doesn't want to decide to stay, and then feel like you tricked him and he made the wrong decision. How long can you stay calm and supportive? Forever is the answer he's looking for.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Thank you both so much for your kind words of encouragement!
Quote: And I believe that your H and many of the WAS are torn, deeply conflicted - because we have changed and we aren't the insane emotional demanding ones they remember. They are trying to figure out what is the best thing to do. They realize their emotions got the best of them, and they reacted perhaps with bad behavior, and they are trying to figure it out now so they don't make it worse.
I believe you hit the nail on the head here, PL. Like the wise GH has said, don't believe everything they say, look at what they are doing. A few months ago H was going out almost every night after work and staying out all night at least once a week. The past 2 weeks he has been coming straight home from work every day. He is more involved in our home and in our kids lives. If anything, the biggest thing that I see from this is in our children. They are much happier, their grades are improving and they overall are in a much more secure and better place. So....stop the pity party...I've gone this long with no sex (6 months), so what's a little while longer. Right?
Ok, I was cruising the Midlife crisis thread and found some interesting facts that I will repost here courtesy of Newman:
He feels ‘‘condemned'' To Life in his Secret Midlife Crisis.
HOW can a man who has ''got it all'' -- a top job, financial security, a loving wife and children -- become depressed? ''The sunshine means nothing to you at all,''. ''The seasons, friends, good food mean nothing. All you focus on is yourself and how bad you feel.'' (Mike Wallace)
''In severe depression, the entire body and spirit of a person is in a state of shipwreck, of desolate lostness,” (Pulitzer Prize-winning author, William Styron)
Terrence Real, a psychotherapist in Cambridge, Mass., says: ''There's been a cultural collusion about hiding men's depression. Men are reluctant to acknowledge it, those around men are reluctant to acknowledge it because there's a stricture that says depression is unmanly.'' It is time to break the conspiracy of silence.
How Men Express Depression in Midlife
Rather than showing classic signs of acute depression, like severe lethargy, loss of appetite and inability to concentrate, the great majority of depressed men express their distress in covert ways, for example, by being angry or irritable, self-medicating, withdrawing from loved ones or acting irresponsibly. ''Depressed women have pain; depressed men have troubles. They're not in pain but the people around them are in pain.''
Men do experience depression differently from women. Women tend to ruminate and dwell on things, whereas men are more likely to take action to distract themselves, forcing the depression underneath.
Research shows that women usually internalize distress, while men externalize it. Depressed women are more likely to talk about their problem and reach out for help; depressed men often have less tolerance for internal pain and turn to some action or substance for relief.
Male depression isn't as obvious as the defenses men use to run from it. First, men attempt to escape pain by overusing alcohol or drugs, working excessively or seeking extramarital affairs. They go into isolation, withdrawing from loved ones. And they may lash out, becoming irritable or violent.
The causes of depression differ in men and women, as well. While depressed women often feel disempowered, depressed men feel disconnected, from their needs and from others. This begins in childhood, as society teaches boys early on to pull away from their mothers, their emotions and their vulnerabilities.
When men internalize their hurt into covert depression they engage in destructive addictive behaviors - from classic alcohol and drug dependence to affairs outside the marriage to workaholism to neglecting or abusing their own children. Typically, they are incapable of making the emotional investment necessary to sustain a lasting loving relationship, either with their wife or kids.
These are not the type of people who turn up for therapy on their own volition. They are there because they have to be - because the courts have sent them or because their wife has delivered an ultimatum. In many ways they are the lucky ones, because there is someone there to catch them, before or during the inevitable transition from covert to "overt" depression.
Men with Covert Depression continue these top three signals: 1) self-medication to enliven dead feelings by drinking, drugging, womanizing, burying themselves in work, overeating or overspending; 2) radical isolation, a pulling away from relationships, intimacy, from life itself, and 3) lashing out, which runs the gamut from increased irritability to domestic abuse and violence.''
How to lift the cloud and rid the fog
Many men try to hide their condition, thinking it unmanly to act moody. And it works: National studies suggest that doctors miss the diagnosis in men a full 70% of the time. But male depression also stays hidden because men tend to express depression differently than women do.
Men, if you wish to lift the cloud of male depression then the first step is to stop masking the depression with addictive or aggressive behaviors and ''allow the pain that is driving the behavior to surface.'' Only then can a more constructive approach to life and loved ones be formulated.
Reconnection is key. Treatment first requires resolving the violent or self-medicating behaviors--the affair, the drinking, the workaholism--so that the underlying condition can be grappled with. But the ultimate cure lies in reestablishing connection. The ideal of male stoicism and the ensuing isolation lie at the root of male depression. Intimacy is its most lasting solution.
Next, involve a series (usually weekly) of one-on-one conversations with a therapist --psychologist, social worker or pastoral counselor -- or marital or family counseling.
Finally, “Do the behavior first and let the feelings follow -- fake it until you make it” depression in men is often alleviated if men ''force themselves to be as relational as they can be rather than isolating themselves. Do the dishes, help the kids with their homework.'' (Terrence Real)
Also picked this up which describes my H to a T:
They have low self esteem. They are very unhappy inside. They are very angry inside. They have a low self image. They have suppressed their inner feelings for many years. The seeds for MLC were planted in childhood. They feel as if they have been controlled their whole life. They feel their feeling were never validated. They have feelings of being inadequate or not good enough. They feel that during childhood they did not receive nurturing or a special love from their parents. They have feelings of rejection and abandonment that haunt them from childhood.
Now that I understand what my H is going thru with a little more clarity the million dollar question is how do I help him get thru this?
Oh, Mama, I wish I knew the perfect answer to your question! My H has most of these symptoms - works 70 hours or more per week, in the midst of an A (which is long-distance and therefore still very isolating), has cut off contact from most of the people in his life. Thank God he is not drawn to substance abuse. Being that we are now separated, it seems to me the only thing I can do right now is be loving, kind and understanding when I do see him so that he begins to trust me again. I believe he fully expected that his A would be a "last straw" for me, as he was feeling so low about himself, his accomplishments in his life so far, his S12 and the circumstances around his S12 which are messed up, and a host of other things. He has issues from his childhood, including abuse, so all the components are there. I have tried a few things that have worked out, and a few that have not. He didn't want to go to MC anymore. I would have liked to see him pick up on IC at that point, but no interest as would be expected. He said he was going to pursue personal coaching with an old friend and former coach, but did not follow through. I am currently in the process of negotiating having us work together with a new coach, who does business and life coaching. I think he finds the idea of coaching less threatening (less like there is something wrong here) since people use them to improve business too, and I think it will still have some good effect. Also, we see a nutritionist for herbal supplements, and recently she switched his supplements to a product that is geared towards male depression and mid-life changes. It has, among other things, St. John's Wort, which is a depression reliever. I buy him vitamins and minerals and supplements anyway (vit B is really important for stress and depression) and these things he accepts from me and takes. The new one he has been taking only a week, but I did see some "more upbeat" behavior during the past week so I am hopeful this might be helpful.
It seems there is no way to do anything without your partners consent, and to have consent they must trust you. The only time when this is not true, is when they are a danger to themselves or others, and then you can forcibly hospitalize them and then the chances are slim if you are in that situation, that they will ever trust you again. And isn't it also arrogant of us to think that we know better? And yet, as a person on the outside, we can often see things that a person just living each day can't see for themselves. That's the whole point of having people you trust in your life - so we can look out for each other.
My mom had Alzheimer's and she pulled away and isolated too and it was really tough as they have to be in really bad shape before the law will take their personal rights away. I did eventually get her hospatilized, and the hospital and doctors became the bad guys, and I became her "rescuer" who took her home from them, so eventually I got the trust to care for her as was needed.
But with our H's, they are not "impaired" according to cultural definition. They are still functioing out there. They are just not the best they can be. All I can say is that there is a delicate balance between love, compassion, and caring and the smother-mother, know-it-all, unwanted helper which drives them further away. I think there has to be trust first or the message doesn't land. So having trust in the relationship, being respectful and kind, and not giving up are the 3 keys I think. Oh, and patience, of course
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
PL: Be **CAREFUL** with St. John's Wort--it can cause liver failure fairly easily!!
It's so sad that their impairment (no matter what the culture says) has such a terrible impact on those that have made the somewhat unfortunate decision to love them. I too am trying to find the balance between loving/supportive/patient and smother mother (great way to put it!)
I don't have anything to make it easier, Mama, but I feel for you.
