Quote: Maybe you just need to be clearer on the "behavior vs. person" aspect of your criticism. You love the man, but shouldn't have to endure being treated with disrespect by him . . . especially in front of others.
You are absolutely right, dear man. If (or rather when) this comes up, I will make that distinction clearer.
NHTom wrote:
Quote:
Quote: Why does H feel that I don’t accept ‘who he is.’
Because you don't:
Can you elaborate? I have a feeling this is manspeak for something and it doesn’t literally mean what it sounds. See, H and I are very different people and we have known this all along and accepted it to some degree. At times, we both feel engulfed because we are caught in a situation where accepting your partner for who they are means somehow giving up who you are. I can give practical examples of this from my perspective. Neither of us if wrong in what we want.
Quote: Is it easy for him to talk to you? Does he feel understood when he does?
He would probably say that I am not easy to talk to. I have gotten better over the last couple of years, and I do try. I think this would be a good question to ask him.
Lillieperl wrote:
Quote: My personal red flag popped out: y'all were drinking. Exactly how much alcohol did he have?
Not that much. One or two glasses of wine each. H did say later that he said things he wouldn’t have said when not under the influence of alcohol. I think it wasn’t so much about what he said, but the fact that he missed how uncomfortable I was.
Quote: Was the other guy talking about making a bunch of money at work? They were getting ready to take a trip? Build a house? Something about the kids? I agree that you need to make it clear he cannot diss you in front of others, but I'm really curious about exactly WHAT ticked him off enough to start sniping.
Lillie, it certainly wasn’t about them. My sis and BIL are absolute darlings, we get along great with them, they are in our income bracket etc. and it wasn’t a jealousy thing. If anything, they are going through a very rough patch right now dealing with primary infertility, so I’m confident it wasn’t anything they said or did. My guess is that he felt comfortable around them and the alcohol helped him vent. That’s all.
Karen wrote:
Quote: You have a lot of thoughts and emotions swirling around right now. That part is probably the PMS talking.
You can say that again, sista. I am having a bad cycle. This happens once every few months – I am emotional, anxious and sensitive and no fun to be around. The rest of your advice is sound and I am trying to leave it alone for now.
Quote: My perception is that I do see and understand him as much as he will let me, I try to accept as much of it as I can as long as it doesn’t compromise my integrity.
You probably know what I'm going to zero in on in this comment -- how does accepting HIM ever compromise YOUR integrity? Accepting him doesn't mean agreeing with everything he says and does or always approving of him or never getting mad at him. I know you know this-- so what did you mean by that statement?
The fact that your guests were really nice doesn't eliminate the possibility of a jealous reaction-- jealous in the Four envy sense-- "other people have it better, easier, their life is simpler, they get along, don't have the issues we do, if they have issues, the issues aren't divisive, etc."
This is beautiful. Here, I said something I thought was clear as day and you go "huh?" Yup. You're right. It seems to be the difference between male and female.
There are two things I picked up on in your first post: ->Why does H feel that I don’t accept ‘who he is.’ and ->when others were around – was not acceptable
"accept" and "not acceptable" Translation: His mouth is part of who he is. You found what he said unacceptable. Therefore, you don't accept him for who he is.
It's as simple, cut and dry, black and white, as that. Think "legalistic." Think "technicallity."
The game: We (men) hear women complain in general about not being accepted for who you are. Not accepting is a "bad thing". He caught you not accepting. That gives him the right to play victim.
There may also be the attitude "If women expect men to participate in women's emotional world then men should have the same rules as women." Many men have, over the years, innocently done something they thought was nice and then had the woman blow up in his face for being insensitive. Even if you haven't done that, the perceived "man/woman" rules include it. He's playing the male/female game with the new perceived rules and he plans to win.
I'm somewhat sympathetic towards his point of view.
Okay, its official. It was more my perception than anything else. The hormones have faded, the fog has lifted.
Though I joke about it, this being a woman thing is vastly misunderstood and frickin' hard. I wish I could constantly have this sense of well-being. If this is how men feel, no wonder they have no clue what we are talking about half the time. Despite a fairly good self-awareness (and by that I mean I suspected my perception was skewed), I still couldn't snap out of it.
Well, that being said, the issues are still there, still real. They just seemed a LOT worse than they were. Let me try to get to some posts in the few minutes that I have.
Quote: anyway, it's clear that my H is a "9"...a peacemaker who is passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. The thing is, this type of person likes to seek stimulation by provoking in indirect ways, leaving the spouse pissed off with no place to go. The partners ( like myself) tend to be obsessive types who have a hard time letting go of a hurt, especially when no real apology is offered.
The challenge is for the P-A partner to develop some insight into the provoking behavior and the more compulsive ( or in this case, PMS-y) partner to become unstuck and let go. This requires those usual ingredients of self awareness, listening and communication, and a good dose of humor as well.
You describe your H has the homebody but I wouldn't be surprised if he needs to do some P-A needling of you periodically for some stimulation.
Thanks for chiming in, IHJ. Some of this really rings true for me. H knows exactly where my hot buttons are and will start pushing them periodically. Sometimes, I am succesful in disengaging, and sometimes I am not. I don't think it is for stimulation as much as getting back at me for something I did that bothered him. What I keep telling him is that he needs to be more direct with me and address the real issue at hand instead of indirectly needling me about unrelated things.
Mojo said:
Quote: For instance, if Julie's H was teasing her about cracking the whip on the housework, he might be hoping some other H in the group would say something like "Yeah, my W busts my balls about being a slob too but you gotta do it because if Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy.". If he respects the other H and feels like the other H has a good relationship with his W then Julie's H can feel more like he can be a man AND someone who cleans the bathroom just because his W wants him too. OTOH, maybe he really doesn't think it's fair that he should have to live up to Julie's standards but he's just too wimpy to broach the issue in an upfront manner. So when he teases her in public he is hoping some other H will say "Man, why do you put up with that cr*p. I told my W 'If you want to spend your Saturday mornings scrubbing the tile with a toothbrush, go for it! I'll be on the golfcourse'". That way he can maybe borrow some brass for his balls in order to make a real stand.
Hmmm...maybe he is looking for some validation. Personally, I still think it is some combination of venting and needling. He gets a rise out of me and that does something for him.
It seems the way to deal with this is to disengage and diffuse the situation with humor. This is what I plan to do the next time it happens. An opportunity should be coming up soon because the whole family is gathering at my house for mother's day!
Quote: You probably know what I'm going to zero in on in this comment -- how does accepting HIM ever compromise YOUR integrity? Accepting him doesn't mean agreeing with everything he says and does or always approving of him or never getting mad at him. I know you know this-- so what did you mean by that statement?
You know what, Lil? You are exactly right. Sometimes, it might feel like he is asking me to accept him at the cost of crossing a line that violates my integrity. The truth is - if I feel that way, it is because of my own developmental or differentiation level. Thank you for pointing that out. I should know better, but I am going thru a whiny phase.
Quote: The fact that your guests were really nice doesn't eliminate the possibility of a jealous reaction-- jealous in the Four envy sense-- "other people have it better, easier, their life is simpler, they get along, don't have the issues we do, if they have issues, the issues aren't divisive, etc."
This doesn't ring true. My H is a 9, through and through. Envy is generally not one of his weaknesses. He is all about peace and retreating within himself. Even if he given to jealousy about other people's apparent peaceful lives, this wouldn't apply to my sis and her husband currently as they are in the throes of infertility and have been undergoing treatments for over 2 years now.
Thanks, Lil, for nailing me to the wall on the integrity issue. You are right.
Quote: This is beautiful. Here, I said something I thought was clear as day and you go "huh?" Yup. You're right. It seems to be the difference between male and female.
There are two things I picked up on in your first post: ->Why does H feel that I don’t accept ‘who he is.’ and ->when others were around – was not acceptable
"accept" and "not acceptable" Translation: His mouth is part of who he is. You found what he said unacceptable. Therefore, you don't accept him for who he is.
It's as simple, cut and dry, black and white, as that. Think "legalistic." Think "technicallity."
Tom,
Here is where we are crossing wires. I can accept him without accepting all his behavior. When I say I do accept him – I am thinking about acceptance on a deeper level – the man he is, his strengths and weaknesses, ideas and philosophies, preferences and dislikes. I still allow room for things that he does or says that I dislike. Accepting someone does not mean that I have to put up with disrespect or inconsideration.
I don’t think it is so black and white. BUT – thank you for your point of view. This may very well be why my H says that I don’t accept him. We are back in a good space, so maybe I will talk to him about this and see if we can understand each other better.
Personally, I think asking someone to "accept me as I am" is ridiculous. And I've done it before! lol
Maybe, Jules, he's just feeling like you want to do an overhaul on him. First you schnarch the hell outta him on the sex issue and it appears you may be gearing up towards another one with respect to the recreation issue. Maybe he just wants to be allowed to be an antisocial grump without fear that you are going to make it a Marital Issue.
My H is also an antisocial grump. For the longest time, I fought this battle. Eventually I gave it up. I go to weddings alone. On social occasions (barbecues and whatnot) he may or may not go with me and I usually don't know until the last minute. Sometimes he will go and get resentful and be an ass the entire time.
I have completely dropped this rope. I am used to going places alone now and I think people are used to seeing me solo, or with the kids. It sucks but what can I do?
I can't make every personality discrepancy between us An Issue. I just can't. I will destroy everything good between us and it aint worth it. At some point, I *do* have to accept that his way, although obviously wrong , is his way and that's that. He has started to make overtures in the last few years towards wanting to be more social and there is MUCH less complaining, but that's only after I completely dropped it.
I don't know if any of this applies to you or not and I could be reading waaaaaaaay too much into your original post, so ignore me if it doesn't resonate.
About the needling...is this something your inlaws do? Could he have been pulling a When In Rome thing? Or was he all alone in his grumpiness?
-- how does accepting HIM ever compromise YOUR integrity? Accepting him doesn't mean agreeing with everything he says and does or always approving of him or never getting mad at him. I know you know this-- so what did you mean by that statement? 