H and I had a huge blowup last night. It wasn’t about sex. Maybe this doesn’t belong in the SSM BB, but you guys are my friends and I respect your opinions. If you make it thru this saga, there is actually a question at the end.
My sister and BIL were here over the weekend. On Sat night, we had all had a couple of drinks. At some point, H started to criticize me. It was veiled in a ‘just kidding’ sort of way, but some of the digs were really hurtful. The content of his criticism doesn’t matter – most were minor things, some were digs that only I understood. I was shocked. I had no idea he was carrying around this much anger and resentment.
Sunday came, I was quiet and we were both too busy with family and the kids to interact much. Last night, he came to bed and initiated sex, he was quite sweet about it - he was about to play me a romantic song on his PDA and make me swoon (his words). I was uninterested. He knew exactly why, although he didn’t offer up an apology. He said he had been ‘just kidding.’ I stayed pretty calm, but made it clear that this behavior of not talking to me about issues, avoiding and stuffing his feelings, and then letting it leak out when others were around – was not acceptable. I pointed out that it wasn’t the first time, that he has a pattern of doing this. He is the chief of the passive-aggressive, conflict-avoiding club.
He was furious. He feels that I don’t accept him for who he is. I told him that he cannot be inconsiderate and call that who he is, that is a copout and I cannot accept that.
I want to peel back the layers here. I want to look at myself. I’ve asked myself why I am so angry and upset. Is it because I want to present a happy picture in front of my family? Sure, who doesn’t? But I feel that is a small part of it.
Another layer here is that I am in a moderate hormonal haze right now, PMSing. I tried to filter that out before I even brought it up to H last night. I might be a little oversensitive right now, but I am not imagining the level of resentment that I felt emanating from him.
H and I are different. He would be very happy with routine – a 9-5 job, an uneventful family life, time with kids, an undemanding wife who took care of him….I DO accept this about him. I like all of this too, but not if it is all there is to life. I DO take care of him and we do have a fairly uneventful and happy life, and I love that. I love my family life and wouldn’t change that for the world. But I would also like a little more - some impulsiveness, some adventure, some romance, things to look forward to. I need more stimulation than him – emotionally, sexually, socially, culturally, intellectually. I have verbalized this to him, and I think he understands. The disconnect happens because he thinks I want him to be just like me. I don’t. I just want him to take my wishes into consideration, and meet me halfway.
I’m attempting to sort things out in my own head, so I came up with this list…
SEX: This was the biggest issue for us. For over a decade, I wanted it and he didn’t. About 2 years ago, I found this board, read SSM and PM, and sex is no longer an issue. We have both worked to get to where we are, and we have a mutually satisfying sex life today.
RECREATION: Right now, this is our biggest area of discord. H likes to stay home and hang out. I want to travel, go to the theater and concerts, have a social circle, go out to coffee and dinner etc. He says he is okay with all of this, is willing to do this with me. He says he understands the difference between ‘who he is’ and ‘what he does,’ so this is not an issue.
CAREERS: We don’t talk about this much, and on the surface we are in agreement. But there are undercurrents. On some level, H feels that he is not good enough or at least he used to. Sigh! He is no slouch, he has a masters degree in engineering, makes a very good living and is well respected by everyone (including me) professionally. He does not have ambitions about climbing the corporate ladder, but its possible he thinks I want him to. Despite what he thinks, I actually DO accept this about him, so I see this as his issue rather than mine. As for me – I waver between being content with my career and feeling that I need to get more motivated and push forward. Currently, I am rationalizing that the part time technical position that I am in is a good way to balance kids and work. In a few years, I expect I will want more.
MONEY: This has never been much of an issue. We make a good living together, and we are both fairly conservative. We consult each other before we make any big purchases, he is very appreciative of my household money-managing skills and I am very appreciative of his ability for long term financial planning.
KIDS: H feels that he does more of the kid stuff than he should. Sometimes, he is right. They gravitate towards him because he is an awesome dad. Weekends are often stressful because he will spend all Saturday morning doing kid stuff and then he is saturated, and takes it out on me for the rest of the weekend. I do acknowledge that this is hard on him, I encourage him to disappear for chunks of time and do whatever he wants.
EXERCISE: Strangely, this is an area of discord. H is an athletic sort, I am, er…, less so. He can be condescending. He believes that anyone should be at a fitness level where they can just get up and run 6-7 miles! While his natural athleticism and co-ordination are things that I am attracted to, I get hurt when he looks down at me for exercising in an ‘air-conditioned’ gym. We’ve talked about this, and he has admitted that he should be more respectful about this. However, the digs keep coming when I least expect them.
HOUSEWORK: This used to be a biggie. I am a neat freak, he couldn’t care less. Once we threw kids into the mixture, things were stressful for a while. At some point, I decided that a clean house was low on my list of priorities. So, now, I run this household silently most of the time and do as much as I can fit in. I rarely relay that stress to him, and I definitely enjoy not being the bitch in the house.
That’s all I’ve come up with, so far.
I need some manspeak translation here. Why does H feel that I don’t accept ‘who he is.’ What specifically is he talking about? He has said this so many times that I am starting to think about it. Is this true? Am I really the selfish, unreasonable person he thinks I am? Where is the line between asserting my needs in the relationship and asking him to be someone who he is not?
Julie: Maybe you just need to be clearer on the "behavior vs. person" aspect of your criticism. You love the man, but shouldn't have to endure being treated with disrespect by him . . . especially in front of others.
I know, that seems pretty obvious, but men are usually pretty obvious. He might have felt guilty about the way he treated you, but, after you brought it up, he decided to attack, shifting the focus onto you. You know, the "best defense is a good offense" kind of treatment.
Quote: Why does H feel that I don’t accept ‘who he is.’
Because you don't:
Quote: avoiding and stuffing his feelings, and then letting it leak out when others were around – was not acceptable
Perhaps it's not reasonable to accept someone the way they are all the time.
Is it easy for him to talk to you? Does he feel understood when he does? There are techniques to make someone feel understood - usually by restating in your own words, without judgement, what he means and then asking him if you got it right. That may be why he felt he needed alcohol to say those things.
Then again, sometimes guys step out of line. My guess is the sooner it's corrected the better. So what you MIGHT have done when he started making his cracks is said something like, "Two can play at that game, honey. Let's stop now." And, yes. It is a game.
My personal red flag popped out: y'all were drinking. Exactly how much alcohol did he have? I realize alcohol doesn't create grievances, but it loosens the tongue so people feel entitled to gripe.
You said "at some point," he started cricicizing you-- at what point exactly? It seems to me that something that you or someone said triggered his "starting to criticize," and that because of the alcohol, he said something that he would have normally stuffed. Can you remember what y'all were talking about when he started in on you?
Was the other guy talking about making a bunch of money at work? They were getting ready to take a trip? Build a house? Something about the kids?
I agree that you need to make it clear he cannot diss you in front of others, but I'm really curious about exactly WHAT ticked him off enough to start sniping.
You have a lot of thoughts and emotions swirling around right now. That part is probably the PMS talking. For now, deal with the behavior and the behavior only. Hey honey - berating me with barbs in front of family - uncool, don't do it. I'm not mad but I need to have a moment to collect myself before feeling close again. Now is not the time to deal with recreational, cultural or style differences. As far as liking him for "who he is" he will read any discussion of these differences right after chastising him for bad behavior (and it was) as not accepting him. Those are topics for another day and probably for counseling. For now, stick to the behavior issue. If you have said your piece and feel he understood you then leave it alone and focus on getting to a place where you can enjoy each other's company without discomfort of having had that discussion. Leave the rest alone for now - it will do more harm than good.
I would definitely confront the issue of...it's not ok for him to berate you in front of anyone, period. It is simply disrespectful behavior. Doing so in front of other people too means (IMPO) that he's more likely to get away with it, because you aren't likely to say something to him....in front of company.
It is simply not ok to put your spouse down in front of other people, alcohol or no alcohol...although as Lil said, alcohol does tend to loosen some people's tongues and inhibitions.
The boundary here is that what he did was disrespectful and hurtful...period. I'm betting he wouldn't tolerate that behavior from you if you did it. You can accept him for who he is, but that does not mean you have to accept disrespectful behavior aimed at you....in front of other people.
Hey Julie... I am chiming in here because I notice some similarities between our H's. In fact, recently I picked up another enneagram book which went through the various personality sytles very simplistically ( my daughter, the "5", grabbed the book and I don't know where it is now)...anyway, it's clear that my H is a "9"...a peacemaker who is passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. The thing is, this type of person likes to seek stimulation by provoking in indirect ways, leaving the spouse pissed off with no place to go. The partners ( like myself) tend to be obsessive types who have a hard time letting go of a hurt, especially when no real apology is offered.
The challenge is for the P-A partner to develop some insight into the provoking behavior and the more compulsive ( or in this case, PMS-y) partner to become unstuck and let go. This requires those usual ingredients of self awareness, listening and communication, and a good dose of humor as well.
You describe your H has the homebody but I wouldn't be surprised if he needs to do some P-A needling of you periodically for some stimulation.
I have a theory I was going to post but I think maybe IHJ's theory is better. I used to have the bad habit of teasing my H in public. Generally, it would be something fairly innocuous along the lines of how I have to do all the cooking because he can't fry an egg. At some point, I realized that this was PA behavior, as IHJ noted, and I made an effort to stop "riffing" in this manner and attempted to apologize to my H. However, in my sich since my H apparently has absolutely no ego attachment to his cooking ability, he told me that he just thought it was funny and it didn't really bother him.
If I attempt to analyze why I would complain about having to do all the cooking in a humorous way in public rather than in a straight-forward serious way in private, I would say it was a combination of wimpyness and also an attempt to get peer validation/advice one way or another on this issue, sort of the some of the same thing I seek on this BB. For instance, if Julie's H was teasing her about cracking the whip on the housework, he might be hoping some other H in the group would say something like "Yeah, my W busts my balls about being a slob too but you gotta do it because if Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy.". If he respects the other H and feels like the other H has a good relationship with his W then Julie's H can feel more like he can be a man AND someone who cleans the bathroom just because his W wants him too. OTOH, maybe he really doesn't think it's fair that he should have to live up to Julie's standards but he's just too wimpy to broach the issue in an upfront manner. So when he teases her in public he is hoping some other H will say "Man, why do you put up with that cr*p. I told my W 'If you want to spend your Saturday mornings scrubbing the tile with a toothbrush, go for it! I'll be on the golfcourse'". That way he can maybe borrow some brass for his balls in order to make a real stand.
I don't think this is the case in Julie's sich, but I think another reason for this type of PA behavior in public might be a cry for help from someone who subconsiously feels like a victim of Stockholm Syndrome in their relationship. Sort of like the kidnap victim who tries to give subliminal/secret "Help me. Something is not right." messages to the clerk at the Stop & Go. If this was the case, then I would think that the message would be more likely to be aimed at a member of the opposite sex.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thanks for hosting my pity party, guys. I think I confused things by combining two different issues. The ‘picking at me’ issue was addressed immediately, and while I didn’t get an apology, he heard me loud and clear.
The other question – one that I was hoping to get more feedback on (especially from the men), is the ‘you don’t accept me for who I am’ bit. My perception is that I do see and understand him as much as he will let me, I try to accept as much of it as I can as long as it doesn’t compromise my integrity. I think its time to go back and read Schnarch again. We seem to both feel engulfed by one another. We have to dig ourselves out of this, and I guess I am the one who will have to bring the tools.
I am still in a somewhat altered state of mind. Things feel a little tense between us, but I am unable to distinguish between perception and reality. I asked H not to needle me the other night, and he said I was imagining it. I guess I will just give it a few days and see how I feel. I genuinely think this may be about my perception. I should mention that we have continued to have sex, and its been great.
