P.P.P.P.S. Lololol, one of my first conversations with my wonderful new H concerned the important similarities between the Four Agreements (him) and DBing (me). Good ideas in both places.
Quote: So, how much encouragement do you want??? Imagine things from her POV. "Gee, I really want a passionate love affair like I had with OM, but I'll have to give that up and rejoice about a lick on the cheek. Hey that's an improvement though and I really will appreciate it. I smiled, but I don't want to scare him away. He is so tentative and reluctant to have really hot sex as it is..."
OT, I am willing to admit that I may be wrong in saying this, but our sex WAS hot and intense. IT WAS NEVER THE SEX that was the issue but the intimacy away from the bedroom and the getting to the sex part and I don't mean foreplay, that was usually very involved and "intense" as well. I think what turned her off was that I was SO passive in my attempt to "initiate" that she just could never get in the mood. WHEN I did manage to get her going, and we both got into it, it was hot, passionate and good. Like Mama said, my W almost always came away from ML saying emphatically that we needed to do that more often and why didn't we? I never had a good answer because I thought I had tried but I guess I had not.
As far as whatever relationship she may have had with OM, I would assume that (and I am judging a book by it's cover here) looking at him, and hearing her describe him a little, her was a VERY physical man. Also, his body type is just about as opposite of mine as you could get, especially back then. He is about 6'4", 260 lbs and totally ripped from head to toe. I was 5'10", 180 lbs with a bit of a gut and a little extra in a few other places. Seriously, it was like your H coming home with Angelina Jolie or Tyra Banks or something. I have to assume that he got her going a bit with just how he looked and then his aggression did the rest...until that aggression made him abusive. Sure, his personality or charm may have done it for her too but I don't get that impression from what she's said.
All I can say is I am NOT that guy, and I have no desire to be. If she wants that, an over the top, aggressive meat head, then she can go get him. If she wants me, at my best, which is clearly not what I was when she "left" then I am going to do my best to be that.
Quote: Going along contentedly and happily in a sexless M is just reinforcing her believe that coming back to you means giving up the passion.
Seriously, this makes me want to scream, yell, break something. How do you act passionate towards a wet blanket? I mean come on, she gives me NOTHING and not being here, you don't know all the things I have tried short of throwing her down and jumping on her, and as I said, if that's what she wants, sorry, that's not me, or at least not the me she get the first time after 6 months. Maybe we can get there together but I am just not the man that does that without SOME freaking indication that she wants that.
Maybe I just don't get it. I am starting to understand that. I am also starting to understand that it may be a serious problem for ME to be with a woman who refuses, even in the best of times, to initiate ANY kind of physical intimacy.
I am going to be honest. I am VERY frustrated.
As for the lick, um, it was with the kids sitting on her lap. There wasn't much i could do about that.
I have not found PM at any of my local stores. I am going to have to order it.
I guess I just don't see intimacy as something that I can do alone. I can't DB that part of this R. I need her to meet me at least 1/10th of the way. I can handle doing 90% but I cannot accept the entire responsibility for all this.
In the end, I am thinking that I just need to talk to W about all this. I know I have stayed away from that all this time but I can't keep doing this forever.
I am tired and just need a break from all this. Life is great otherwise. Maybe I need to pull a RB and just go celibate in my mind...
P.S. I was venting on my last post... I'm not THAT frustrated...yet.
Quote: You need to be strong enough and confident enough that she can enjoy the passion without needing to be a caretaker for your emotional fragility on this issue, if that makes any sense.
Yes, sorta. I may need more of an explanation on this one. Maybe the rest of this post WAS that. If so, please disregard.
Quote: Do you think you are strong and confident enough for this to be the case or will any attempts at intimacy be too much about you and protecting your ego?
I honestly don't know. I wasn't thinking it WAS about my ego but I guess it is. Sucks to realize that but since ego, or confidence at least, is such a large part of this, I am at a loss.
Quote: If you can't do it and hold onto yourself and your happiness in light of rejection, then probably it will be too much about you for her to get what she wants and needs from intimacy.
Um, WTF does she want from intimacy? It's like I said to Mama, after awhile, after a certain number of rejections and years without her initiating ONCE, and I DO mean YEARS without her initiating, you just become numb. You just start to think that she really doesn't like it at all. Sure, it seems like she does in the moment but damn, if I like something, I at least make the minimal effort to DO it every once and awhile. If she doesn't like it, well, far be it for me to suggest that actually TELLING me that would have hurt less than cheating on me, and telling me NOW would probably be a good place to start.
Quote: So, maybe you are best off waiting until YOU are really more ready for the emotional risks.
I would be willing to take a risk and actually think I have. I guess maybe I am NOT ready. I don't know.
Quote: But, quit making it about her fragility in your own head. She seems pretty strong to me, strong enough to act on her lack of fulfillment and do something about it, albeit temporarily and not in a particularly healthy way.
I don't think she's fragile AT ALL. I think I have NO clue what she wants or if she wants anything at all and I am getting tired of all the guessing games. Sure, she was "strong" enough to do some other guy (allegedly) but she's not strong enough to tell me I suck in bed, or that she needs this or that to get in the mood, or that she has some other reason why she is not "ready" for that in our relationship? Come on, I don't buy it. I think it's more of the same from her, more of the same old conflict avoidance and passive/agressive thing. Either THAT or she's just not ready, period, and all this will work out with time. Nice to have to try to mind read all that...
I will read more, wait more and try to stave off my total frustration at this. I don't think it helps at all.
Hmmmm... Have you ever discussed your anger and fear related to her not initiating with her? Maybe this is something to open up about with her...
BTW, given your comments, frequency may be a problem. Many women need to be getting it regularly to want it. So, the pre-sex passion and intimacy may actually work better after you have sex (like the next morning) as long as it is followed up with more sex...
Yes, a lot of this is an issue inside you, but you knew that. Also, *part* of that issue likely has arisen because of the patterns in your old M, part is probably older. It is all related...
BTW, if you look at studies, most women prefer your body type to that of OM. So, try to be more confident. Truly, self-deprecation is not attractive, self-affirmation is (without going over the top). I think you've already seen positive results of doing a bit of self-affirmation
Quote: Hmmmm... Have you ever discussed your anger and fear related to her not initiating with her? Maybe this is something to open up about with her...
I don't know about my ANGER at her not initiating, as I think that is really only recent, but we have had several conversations about it in the past. It comes down to her believing that it's the man's job to do that...all the time. Then there are those moments when she admits that she used to initiate with other men, or at least one other man (you know, the one that cheated on HER) but for some reason, just doesn't with me.
I have asked her to, asked her why she doesn't, etc. You name it, we've had the conversation from that angle and still, nada.
Quote: BTW, given your comments, frequency may be a problem. Many women need to be getting it regularly to want it. So, the pre-sex passion and intimacy may actually work better after you have sex (like the next morning) as long as it is followed up with more sex...
I really don't understand this. I used to try all the time but slowly, over time, she started to reject me more and it got to be that we would only do it on certain days, certain times.
One thing to add here is that I know you keep telling me not to put this on my W but one thing that CONSTANTLY would get in the way of intimacy was her low self esteem, or rather her poor body image. I used to LOVE when she wore sexy things to bed and then (and this was BEFORE she was pregnant with S5) she just kinda stopped. It got to be where I would ask her to do it and she just refused. It also affected WHERE and WHEN it happened because she didn't like to be seen nude so it kinda put a damper on things everywhere and every "when" but the bedroom at night. I could never understand it because I think she has an amazing body and would tell her that, and act like that when I had the chance. I tried to be spontaneous, creative, etc, only to have her just reject me time after time. You know I take the blame for this because I KNOW I have issues but I know she does too. I refuse to believe this was all me. There's only so many times you can tell someone they look hot and have them totally reject your opinion before you just stop saying it...funny thing is, I never did stop saying it, even after it was so painfully obvious she didn't care what I thought.
Anyway, as I have always said, this is very complicated.
Quote: BTW, if you look at studies, most women prefer your body type to that of OM. So, try to be more confident. Truly, self-deprecation is not attractive, self-affirmation is (without going over the top). I think you've already seen positive results of doing a bit of self-affirmation
No, that's the thing. My W swore up and down that she HATED that body type OM has. Then she goes for it. Maybe she just wanted to do a 180...lol. Anyway, yea, I gotta stay away from the self-deprecation. I used to do that a lot because I thought I was just saying out loud the things she believed. Since she only ever touched me, i.e. loved me, during sex and stopped really wanting that much of the time, I supposed she just didn't think I looked good at all. I now know that there was much more to it than that but still, it's how I felt and I suppose I didn't deal with that very well.
I will keep up the good fight. I just don't know for sure where to go from here other than to just keep biding my time. I just hope I don't bide my way right back out of the marriage again.
