Thanks. As far as asking her what I can do to build more passion and affection in the M, I think I will hold off on that because like so much else in our marriage, we USED to have some passion and affection between us but it somehow died along the way. I remember what she used to like and not like and want to get back to that as a starting point and go from there. I also have a lot of ideas of things to do/try in the romance area based on really thinking about what she likes and what makes her happy. Mainly, I now understand what I want in all this and will just try to act on that. As OT and other women here have told me, my W seems to be reacting VERY positively to me taking the lead in things, not ignoring her feelings but just expressing mine in a direct way. It is working wonders. Slow wonders, but wonders indeed.
As I have begun to express my "desire" for her in little ways, she has started to respond by being warmer and in general, more comfortable around me. There is a fine line between pawing/grabbing and caressing/touching and I think I now understand that. In the past, I think W would have reacted negatively to my touching her because it was done either with the intent of getting her into bed (which, OT, I KNOW was not necessarily something she didn't want) OR without much intent at all, with an absent mind. Neither one resonated well with her. OT, my reading and common sense tells me that she just wants to feel desired and loved. I would not have believed that a year ago because I was convinced she just had no interest in physical intimacy, but now I think I understand what it means to express love that way and how to do it at least on the basic, day-to-day level. Beyond that, who knows. I will just keep on keepin on and see what happens.
Last night W reminded me that she has a "girls night out" scheduled for Tuesday. One of the "girls" is the friend that as of Friday (there was a lot more we talked about that I didn't remember to journal) I now know met OM at least once and knows all about the A. She even told me that this friend went to dinner with her, OM and other friends. She still says GF does not support the A but I have my doubts, knowing this GF. As I said a couple weeks ago, this night out just so happens to be on the night one of my W's favorite bands is playing in town. She hasn't said what their plans are, but back before all this recent opening up happened, I suspected she was going to the concert with OM. I sincerely doubt that is the case now but... I am just going to DB a little more, not necessarily trust W but I am not going to distrust her either. I will take her at her word, probably express my concerns at some point and then do my own thing that night.
As for OM, one other thing that came out is that W is almost sure that the whole A was designed to get at my W's perceived money. When she told me this, I think I surprised her by asking in a concerned way if that bothered her. She said yes, but that saying it hurt me. I said it did not and that I understood that even though she was committed to us, that she was going to go through some things relating to him and that I understood. I told her she could talk to me about it without fear of me getting upset. I just wanted her to be able to deal with her feelings and then move past them.
I say he was after her perceived money because while she drives a nice car and always dresses well, we have little cash flow beyond what we need to live. Also, W's parents have helped in the past with things like her car, etc so our "situation" is not really what it seems. W said OM made several comments while they were seeing each other about her being rich, "oh, you're the moneybags, you get that bill", etc, and in the end, derogatory comments about her thinking she gets what she wants because she has money, which if he only knew, would be laughable. The last straw on that front to her was hearing people at the gym, where they hung out together, talk about him saying he was "set for life" and would never have to work again. I guess W was a little furious at this, lol.
I am just kinda shocked that W would hang around for all this. Part of me thinks that her going for this guy, and letting what seems to be his con work on her is really sad because it shows just how down she was/is. Another part of me suspects that just like when they get with the OM and bad mouth us to them so they feel better about the sitch, I think she may be doing that in reverse to get me to feel better about things. Maybe a little of each is the case, or something else all together. Who knows. In any event, she is still opening up to me and that is good, period.
She seems to have nothing but disdain for this guy. I know it would be better if she just had apathy, and I think that is starting to be the case, but for now, disdain and dislike will do. I hope this is all for real. It seems to be but as I have been saying, I will keep my eyes and ears open.
It is so refreshing to read your posts and see how far you and your stich has progressed. I truly believe that you and your W are on the right path here and as an outsider, I see real progression for you two. Obviously there will be some bumps ahead, but I really believe that you have made the changes necessary and that your W has recognized those changes to the extent that not only is she looking closely at your future R, but is now working on re-building.
Thank you for staying with us and posting on a daily basis. I know that you have helped me in so many ways over these trying months and I know others depend on your input as well.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Thanks Rob. I hope my long winded story helps someone, somehow, and that my posts to other people's threads are helpful as well. I feel that I need to give back to this place that has given me so much over these past few months. Thanks again everyone!
Really great stuff!! It is wonderful that you didn't put the burden of the decision to cancel on YOUR parents onto her. The R talk sounds just about perfect.
KEEP IN MIND -- the anger and resentment whe will have about "oh, now, you want passion," is about the past and the present. In the past, it is resentment about having lived a pretty empty life in terms of physical intimacy. You can definitely validate this and share this, after all you understand it having felt it yourself and you still feel sad about it!! Remember, you were in that R together, don't feel like the failure when it was a shared problem. Now, in the present, her anger, I expect, is really mostly projection about her anger toward herself. Her *big secret PA* IS a barrier to sex with you for her. She is probably also afraid that she won't be able to succeed in the passion area (she doesn't know how to be a passionate *wife*) and avoids that fear with anger. And, she is probably anger about a different kind of fear, the fear that YOU won't inspire passion and she will have to live an asexual life, but she can't share this fear with you so it comes out as anger. Also, in general, sex and intimacy are very difficult for her to talk about, and the effort to overcome her shyness and embarrasment, any talk about it might seem to have a bit of anger until she relaxes about it.
BTW, are you really OK with her not getting honest with you about a PA??? A conspiracy theory: GH is perfectly happy for W not to be honest about PA because he doesn't want to come clean about his own deep dark secret (PA, porn use, phone sex, flirting at work, high credit card bills, etc...) If so, this is also a barrier to intimacy.
And more on sex, lol...
(Sorry Rob...) Rob's latest post about the bath, backrub, and no sexual overtures made me wonder *who in the world thinks this is a good scenario???*
I don't think you have been, but don't confirm your W's opinion that the passion thing isn't important to you.
Imagine this conversation:
------ Guy 1: My W was sooooo wonderful and romantic last night. She lit candles and put on a sexy nightgown. Then we watched a football game in bed on silk sheets while she gave me a really sensual backrub with scented oil.
Guy 2: Yeah, well, I guess that would be nice if she could do it without being all over you and wanting *it*.
Guy 1: She wasn't all over me at all!!! That was the BEST PART! As far as I know, the thought of sex with me didn't even cross her mind. She really is as satisfied living a truly MONOgamous sex life as I am... as in mono=ONE PERSON, not two, heh heh heh.
Guy 2: Man, am I jealous. I walk near my W and I can feel the sexual energy I excite in her. How much does that suck? --------
Another thing... Your W wants a great passionate SL as much as you do it seems. As you seem to recognize full well, this does not mean that she doesn't hate disconnected boring sex that doesn't satisfy her.
I'd suggest a beginner's mind -- you don't know what she likes and wants in bed, you don't know her kinks or her limits, etc... If you have to ASSume something, assume that any O she ever had with you was fake. Plenty of them probably were, so you can't use them as a reliable guide. Assuming they all were thus is a MUCH better mistake to make than assuming that they were all, or mostly all, real. (Buy some sex toys meant for clitoral stimulation. Remember, having sex without that is like having sex without any penile stimulation.) At the very least, get some dirty underwear from VS and ask her to wear it right before you take her to a nice dinner.
BTW, take careful note that your W said sex was boring. She wants different things from you.
Anyway, I must work on taxes. It sounds like you are great and things are really moving in positive directions for you. I'm very happy for you.
Quote: Rob's latest post about the bath, backrub, and no sexual overtures made me wonder *who in the world thinks this is a good scenario???*
Hold on there OT, I don't want to hijack, but let me go into a bit more detail here. See, in the past, I would use such moments purely for sexual overtures. Sure, a soak in the hot tub sounds grand if only because I knew I was going to likely get some. The difference here was more in attitude than anyting else....there was a chance for some real intimacy, closeness. Unfortunately, whether right or wrong, I always assumed that my W didn't respond well to intimacy (this can be a whole other discussion). This is a major improvement for me because I feel that in the past I was way to eager (based upon my mistaken assumptions and, well, just desire) to just jump into doing the do.
And for the record, the details that followed afterward were edited for the sake of preserving the board from TMI
Now back to our regularly scheduled post!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: Really great stuff!! It is wonderful that you didn't put the burden of the decision to cancel on YOUR parents onto her. The R talk sounds just about perfect.
Thanks OT. Yea, I had to make that decision and it was the correct one.
Quote: In the past, it is resentment about having lived a pretty empty life in terms of physical intimacy.
Yes, I think this is true, but again, she admits to having never even tried to initiate physical intimacy, sexual or otherwise. I think that may have been due to her past, or my inability to inspire passion in her. Who knows. All I know is that I want it to change and think I am on the right track.
Quote: ow, in the present, her anger, I expect, is really mostly projection about her anger toward herself. Her *big secret PA* IS a barrier to sex with you for her. She is probably also afraid that she won't be able to succeed in the passion area (she doesn't know how to be a passionate *wife*) and avoids that fear with anger. And, she is probably anger about a different kind of fear, the fear that YOU won't inspire passion and she will have to live an asexual life, but she can't share this fear with you so it comes out as anger. Also, in general, sex and intimacy are very difficult for her to talk about, and the effort to overcome her shyness and embarrassment, any talk about it might seem to have a bit of anger until she relaxes about it.
This is spot on. I do think the PA thing is the barrier and until that comes out, I think it will continue to be. As for her not being a passionate W, I think that too may be true as evidence by what I said above. I think she is understanding what I want, and too, what she wants. We will have to openly communicate about this, I think, but for now, time is working pretty well.
Quote: BTW, are you really OK with her not getting honest with you about a PA??? A conspiracy theory: GH is perfectly happy for W not to be honest about PA because he doesn't want to come clean about his own deep dark secret (PA, porn use, phone sex, flirting at work, high credit card bills, etc...) If so, this is also a barrier to intimacy.
I have nothing to hide. No deep dark secrets, nothing. I have told my W in the past that my life is open to her. She can search my wallet, car, phone, computer, whatever. The most secretive thing I do, and it's not even a secret other than the actual content of my posts, is post here every day. If anything, I am too "good" and she has commented on that in the past. Maybe she wants more "edge" from me. I can deliver on that but it's not really who I am at the core. So, do I notice pretty women, sure I do. Do I check out some boobies online every now and then, sure, I'm a guy. My credit card bills are paid by W so she knows all about my financials, I don't really flirt that much and I have never even contemplated an affair until VERY recently when the bombs fell and that was only in the abstract as revenge on my W.
I am ok with her not comming clean because as I have said, I am 97% sure she had a PA and since I will never probably know the full truth about a lot of the A, this is just one more thing, a big thing, but just another half/untruth as far as I am concerned. That, and I know that W will eventually come clean about it. I know her that much, and if it happened, I won't have to "want" or "need" to know, she will want or need to tell me. I can't imagine her being able to resume "us" fully until she does this. If so, and if she doesn't ever tell me this and we do resume being intimate, then maybe I am ok believing her that it was just an EA. Also, as I said, if anything happened, it was "safe". I would bet my life on that, and I guess I am to a certain extent. What I am saying is that either she will tell me or I will never really know the truth from her lips, and at this moment, I am at peace with either. Tomorrow that may change, but I doubt it.
Quote:
(Sorry Rob...) Rob's latest post about the bath, backrub, and no sexual overtures made me wonder *who in the world thinks this is a good scenario???*
I don't think you have been, but don't confirm your W's opinion that the passion thing isn't important to you.
OT, you know this is where I struggled in the past, and still do now. Since I used to TRY to initiate physical intimacy all the time and it happened to lead to sex most of the time, how could she NOT know it was important? I will answer my own question. It was because I was not really showing her my desire for HER but making her feel like I just wanted sex from, well, her but that any woman would do. I know because of how I approached things, and how I acted sometimes that she felt all I wanted her for was sex. I take responsibility for my part of it but I don't think it was all my doing.
If men sometimes fall into the belief, as Rob and I had, that our W's don't like sex, women fall into the belief that men ONLY want sex. Sure, we may act like oafs and fumble about now and then, and we may think about it all the time, but I can assure you, I for one wanted more than just sex from my W but since she seemed to only want to be physical when we had sex, then yes, that's what I wanted. I want my W to WANT to touch me, not just in bed, but all the time. Since she thought I only touched when wanted sex, and when she touched me, we had sex...you get the catch 22. I want to be touched, and to touch, with passion and affection whenever, and wherever. I think I am communicating this to my W these days and it's starting to sink in. Time will help with this, I'm sure. I also think this was where Rob was comming from with his hot-tub experience. We want our W's to feel that we can be sensual, passionate and show them affection without it having to lead to intercourse, and not because sex is bad but because those things can exist without sex as well as with. Maybe thats the wrong way to think about it but it seems clear to me that my W was frustrated by only being touched when I "wanted something" just as I was frustrated by my W not touching me at all. Something's got to give, and I think it is now.
Quote: BTW, take careful note that your W said sex was boring. She wants different things from you.
Clarification, she said our LIVES were boring. She didn't ever say sex was. Most of the time, and I know it was not ALL of the time, the actual bedroom portion, the act itself once initiated, was probably "interesting" enough to her. I won't go into details, but we varied things a lot and did a lot of things that I had NO idea she liked that she managed to communicate to me over the years. I can't say she was satisfied all the time, or even some of the time, but bored was not probably the word for it. I think the boredom came in terms of our intimacy outside the bedroom, which was non-existent, our daily grind, and when it came to intimacy, how it was always initiated the same way, and always happened in the bedroom at the same time, same days, etc. I think she knows that I KNOW what she meant by that. I always knew those things were not right but did nothing to change it. This was a major put-off to her.
Quote: It sounds like you are great and things are really moving in positive directions for you. I'm very happy for you.
I am feeling really good and I can only hope things are moving forward. Thank you for your continued support. Go work on those taxes and may Uncle Sam favor you!
Quote: If men sometimes fall into the belief, as Rob and I had, that our W's don't like sex, women fall into the belief that men ONLY want sex. Sure, we may act like oafs and fumble about now and then, and we may think about it all the time, but I can assure you, I for one wanted more than just sex from my W but since she seemed to only want to be physical when we had sex, then yes, that's what I wanted. I want my W to WANT to touch me, not just in bed, but all the time. Since she thought I only touched when wanted sex, and when she touched me, we had sex...you get the catch 22. I want to be touched, and to touch, with passion and affection whenever, and wherever. I think I am communicating this to my W these days and it's starting to sink in. Time will help with this, I'm sure. I also think this was where Rob was comming from with his hot-tub experience. We want our W's to feel that we can be sensual, passionate and show them affection without it having to lead to intercourse, and not because sex is bad but because those things can exist without sex as well as with. Maybe thats the wrong way to think about it but it seems clear to me that my W was frustrated by only being touched when I "wanted something" just as I was frustrated by my W not touching me at all. Something's got to give, and I think it is now.
YES! Thank you as this is precisely what I was trying to get across, albeit not nearly as succintly. The fact is, my W is not a physical touch person....nothing wrong with it, but she just never was. Even during our courtship, we rarely held hands or such. So I equated sex with physical touching. The point is, I do want her to touch me without the expectation of sex behind it...
I guess in my sitch, this became real apparent a few months ago when my W had thanked me for giving her a back rub, I told her a thank you was appreciated but not necessary becasue I enjoyed doing it for her for a variety of reasons. At some point she had mentioned that I did because I wanted sex (i'm paraphrasing). This came to me as a shock because I really never saw it this way, but in hindsight, that's usually how it ended up.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Last night W had girls night out. I admit I was a little anxious over this. I 99% believed her that it was ONLY the two GFs that she said she was meeting for dinner. Nothing she said or did smacked of the OM being there. I suggested earlier this week that I may bring my concerns/fears up to her in a conversation. I decided against this. I was feeling comfortable and thought I could do without this. About the only thing I did was when she answered S5's question of where she was going by saying "I have a date with the devil" (which is a reference to one of the GF's, which I understood but...) I said, "that sounds ominous, it IS only the girls right?" She just said yes with a knowing smile. "No, I'm not starting over again with that."
Ok, so directly asked, directly answered, and I moved on with the night...
I remembered her saying at the height of all this that I used to hover over her while she got ready to go out so I decided to make myself scarce and play with the boys while she showered, etc. We exchanged hugs and a peck before she left. She didn't stay gone long and when she got home she was fine. I don't suspect anything for a variety of reasons.
As for me, I used the time to myself to get a lot done that I have been putting off for one reason or another. It was nice to have the house to myself.
That was really it. No changes in the R last night. About the only thing that was different, and that was this morning, was that W asked me to lay down with her as I was leaving for work saying "Lay down with me, you can be 5 minutes late." Now, I usually do lay down and rub her back or just catch some extra Z's but she indicated she wanted me to hold her, which I did. It was nice and as embraces go, this one was the best yet since this all started. Good way to start the day!
I am still struggling with the right way to "just do it" in terms of introducing some passion into things. Sometimes I feel like I just need to, as OT says, turn her over and kiss her passionately and other times I think that we need a little more time to get used to all this again before that happens. I know that daily we are growing more comfortable with physical closeness, not spending some part of every night cuddled up on the couch.
I am perfectly aware that I have NO idea what my W thinks about all this other than she still kinda turns or doesn't present her lips for kissing and is barely initiating any contact herself beyond hugs. I don't know if she's waiting for me to do something or if, like me, she is taking things slowly. I think the later since she's come out and said that's what she is doing a few times (Ireland, that night when she first commented on "working back toward us" and most recently last weekend when we talked). Of course, I could ask her to clarify, but something tells me I would be better off just to DO instead of ask and since I am not quite ready to do that yet, and neither is she it seems, I will continue to make the smaller changes in our daily interaction until the time when I either throw caution to the wind and do what I WANT to do or we come to that point together. I suspect it will need to be the former, lol.
I think the time is almost here for me to make some kind of move but to do so too soon would put us back a ways. I am willing to take that risk, and may have to soon, but not right now and there is still that possible spectre of the unspoken to deal with...or not.
