Hmmm... Notice that apparently you aren't willing to be totally honest with her either...
You're right to a certain extent but I am talking about being honest about things that happened and you are talking about being honest about feelings. Not telling someone you feel a certain way, especially if you know your feelings are temporary and mainly due to paranoia is not considered a lie or being dishonest. Sure, in the world of psychology I guess you could say both are dishonest but in the real world, my W not telling me she had a PA is not the same as me telling her that my feelings got bent for a few hours over something. Could both forms of "dishonesty" lead to issues in a relationship? I guess so.
Quote: IMPO, what she needs is passion, sex, strength, honesty, confidence, and self-respect from you.
I get this but I can't seem to do that when she seems TOTALLY unresponsive to anything I do. I have tried the playful approach. I have tried telling her how great she looks and how sexy she is whenever I get the chance. I have lit candles. I even tried to kiss her (oops, did I forget that from journaling) last night. We were playing around and I picked her up, laid her down on the couch and kissed her. Sure, it wasn't passionate, but it WAS something new for us, at least in the last year or so. Her immediate reaction was with a SLIGHT smile to say "hey, who said you could do that." and she got up and walked away. Ok, so I am to just assume that she was playing with me? Sure, I guess I should have said "well, CAN I do that?" or just moved in and done it again? I am getting really frustrated because there is only so much a man can do with someone who refuses to acknowledge him in ANY sexual or intimate way. I know I have said I have issues of my own, but I really am trying here. I have not posted every little thing I have done but there are tons of DIFFERENT things I have tried. Some that used to work and others that I tried out to see what would happen. All of it designed to get the message across that I see her as a hot, young, desirable woman and ALSO that I see MYSELF as the male counterpart to that. I am full of confidence. Sure, I am frustrated but I KNOW I look good and so does she so whats the problem. There just seems to be this barrier that prevents her from seeing me that way.
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With respect to the self-respect, I'm not sure why you should be willing to live with reminders of OM all over the place. Why don't you share your fear with her and see what she says? If the panties do relate to OM, tell her they hurt you and ask her to get rid of them and then take her to VS for something other than pajamas and warm ups.
She won't admit to ANY of it being of the OM. The panties, bear, shirts, etc. She has excuses for all of it. From that perspective, she just puts it on ME for being paranoid. Maybe I am...
Quote: With respect to passion and sex, maybe she was waiting for both all weekend and never got either and that is why she is starting to feel frustrated and hopeless. A sexless marriage isn't any better for her than it is for you, maybe worse as she was the first one to seek fire elsewhere. My guess is that she is, or will be, starting to mourn the loss of her identity as a sexual being that inspires and feels passion because she doesn't see a place for that person in your M and nothing is changing to make a place. A woman who is content living an asexual lifestyle doesn't wear sexy underwear like that to begin with...
Ok, I guess I have been raised in the age where I heard SO much "No means no" that I internalize that. She is clearly saying NO to me right now both in action and words. How the hell do I "get passionate" with someone who is not in the least bit passionate about me? I know I can inspire that in her to some extent but damn, how is it that I am just supposed to "have it" for her and she starts with nothing (at least that she shows anyway) for me? I would settle for a tiny spark in her eye. What you seem to be suggesting is that I somehow read her mind and discover what deep seeded thing she wants me to do to release her pent up passion. I am at a total loss, and if she won't talk to me, then I guess I just keep reading, trying and waiting.
Quote: Now, I believe she told you that she wasn't ready for that in Ireland because she was still involved with OM. What makes you think she still isn't ready?
No, she just said that having sex on the trip would be like going from 0-60, relationship-wise, in a couple days. She never said it was because of him. I assumed it was. What makes me think she still isn't ready is, well, prepare to slap me, but because she hasn't responded in ANY way, passively or actively to ANYTHING I have done. I would think, and correct me if I am wrong, that if she were "ready" but somehow wanted me to do things differently, then she would understand the need to communicate, especially after going through all this. Conversely, if she is ready and is willing to at least "get into it" the same old ways but then switch things up, then she would respond to some of those "old" things I have tried. I DO NOT want the "old" ways back again but sometimes when you lose something you have to look for it back in the last place you saw it.
Quote: How much of this "sex being off the table" thing is really all about you, your own anger, resentment, and insecurities? How much is due to you needing honesty about the A to move forward? If that is a big part of it, why not let her know that a great sex life is important to you and that right now your own need for more openness and honesty about the affair is a barrier to that?
I love this part. I don't think consciously I am retarding the process because of my own anger/need for honesty but it is possible that I am. So, this idea of just being open is what I am going to have to do. I think if anything, she may be waiting for me to open up. I will really have to think about this and I suppose just take a leap off the deep end. Thank you for that.
Quote: BTW, I'm not sure if I can explain this, but you seem to implicitly support the idea that a married woman is not a hot, sexy, horny woman that craves sex. Why do I say this? One example is your 5LL talk in which you quickly say that it isn't all about sex for you in a way that sounds to me as if what you are saying is, don't worry W, I'm not going to insist on too much sex because I know that would threaten and scare a good W like you.
You are somewhat correct, but not because it would scare a "good W like you" but because I know she has expressed a lack of interest so much in the past. NOW, I am a different man these days, without some the insecurity I used to have so I don't ALWAYS see things that way. The new me can see that she may LOVE sex but just not the way it used to be between us. The new me knows that things NEED to be different somehow but I struggle to figure out how. I have read a lot on the subject and THOUGHT I knew some things. My biggest issue right now and this goes to your last post, is that I can't even get to the point of initiation, let alone explore any other issues.
I can't explain it. Like I said, it's as if there is a huge wall preventing her from seeing the "passionate" me and me from getting to her.
Quote: I'm glad you are thinking about how and when to talk to her, it will be good for you to get clear about this in your own head so that if you wait, you know that you are choosing to live with the skeletons in the closet.
This is pure truth. I need to make sure I can deal with waiting or if I even need to. I think there will come a time soon that I will take the plunge and talk to her about all this. I just need to make sure I do it in the best way possible. You have helped in that respect...any many others too.
