Becca, I'm very sorry I hurt your feelings. I certainly was not talking about you or even anyone in particular.
I was talking about a pattern I have observed in Piecing -- and indeed in every area of the DB board -- in which some people are really getting somewhere with themselves and their R (whether this is getting back to an M or getting D) and other people are stuck spinning their wheels in La La Land. I don't think these are bad or stupid people. I think they are people in an immense amount of pain who haven't been able to break out of it yet to really begin to make progress in their lives. I would be surprised if you yourself hadn't seen people who are acting as though they are in the process of a full reconciliation while their WAS has said or done nothing to indicate they are open to reconciliation.
I don't know you or your sitch at all, but it wouldn't follow from you not trying to reconcile that I think you are one of those very stuck people. People tend to post in one place for a long time, even if their sitch changes, because it is where their friends and support systems are. Indeed, it seems pretty clear from your short post here that you have a good grip on where your M is.
Now, if you ever look at Surviving the Big D, you'll sometimes see people who are reconciling and not getting D at all. I don't think they are stuck in denial and refusing to see that they aren't getting D after all, lol. It is just where their friends are. But, there are people in Surviving the Big D who are very stuck, filled with anger and bitterness years after a D and seeing very little about their own roles in problems.
You could say the same about any area of the board — some people are stuck, some people are getting it and growing.
The difference between Surviving and Piecing is that getting to Piecing is the goal for many people whereas Surviving is like the plague (until you really accept it, then it is great!!). Piecing is idealized as a triumphant place where the people who are really saving their Ms meet and share their wisdom and struggles with a few steps back but a general movement forward. The hope is that people in piecing really have it together and are supposed to be the big role models. Surviving is not so idealized -- people expect to find some DBers who are stuck and angry there. After all, they didn't save their marriages.
Now, if you go to Piecing and look for the people that believe they are actively reconciling and try to follow their advice, it could get you in trouble if you don't distinguish between those who really are and those who are in denial and stuck.
Again, the same is true anywhere on these boards, but I think it is particularly risky in Piecing because it is so idealized in many ways. The folks in Piecing aren't supposed to be basket cases like everyone else, lol. For many, they are the BIG HOPE of the board. But, of course, just like anywhere else, some people are doing better, some are doing worse.
FWIW, I have never posted as a Piecer, though I did occassionally post to a few friends in Piecing. So, my views on this are based on limited reading of that forum and also discussions about this very subject that Piecers have initiated with me. So, it is an insight that is shared by Piecers themselves as well. Survivers will likewise get frustrated with the Survivers who cannot let go of their hatred toward OM or OW and anger that they didn't "win." In both cases, I think it is because it is so hard to watch people stay so stuck -- it is painful, even, to see them needlessly hurt themselves. This is not to judge them, indeed, judging them as somehow inferior people would make it less painful to watch them. But, it is important to recognize that there are stuck people and following their examples is not going to be constructive.
Again, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and that you felt judged. My intent was to give GH a heads up about the kind of stuff above, but I obviously did not do a good job explaining myself.
I just have this feeling that the lying is not over yet.
Lol, I'd say you're right. But, this is probably more about her not being able to face herself than about you. Say you are right about lunch, this would be my story about it (oh yes, I weave background stories with the best of them...):
W cannot totally let go of OM and quit protecting him, not because she wants to be with him, but because of what it would mean about her. IN HER HEAD {If she can really cut all ties and quit comforting him through his suffering, it would mean she was "cold" "heartless" and worse, an adulteress who cheated for an R that was at bottom very meaningless and empty. This makes her shallow and an idiot, because she thought he was the love of her life. It also makes her despicable because of her treatment of you and your family.}
This is a lot to face, and when she COMPLETELY lets go of OM, these are the kinds of thoughts and feelings she will have to process.
So, she caves and meets OM at lunchtime, to tell him once again it is over, to try to get "closure." (BTW, this won't happen as long as he keeps being rewarded with her attention for not letting go.)
But, she is then afraid of your reaction and losing you, she can't risk it, but she can't face the truth fully herself and acknowledge that she is still really not treating you or your M with respect, and she hates herself for that as well.
Quite a bind she is in. In my experience, until you really enforce your boundaries and refuse to continue to accept it, it will continue. Maybe it is better to do that now, maybe a few months down the road. I'm not psychic, lol.
If I were you, I would have tried, "W, I feel very scared and insecure because your behavior yesterday in talking about lunch is exactly the behavior I associate with you going to see OM. It always seemed to me that I could tell when you were seeing OM versus when you saw friends. I need you to share the truth about lunch yesterday in a very straightforward way."
Anyway, part 2
I just have this feeling that the lying is not over yet.
The bad part is, you will keep having this feeling even when it is over yet. Two years from now, an unexplained teddy bear shows up on the couch, you think it was sent by him. Six months from now there are three hang up calls in as many days, you think it is him. A year from now, you find a card from him to her that she had hidden and forgotten about, you think she is still trying to hold onto her "great love."
Sure, sometimes you can thought stop, but not always. You will need to be able to talk about these things and your insecurities and to ask for reassurance as you rebuild trust. Notice that it is an emotional risk on your part for you to share your fear and ask for reassurance rather than reacting in some bitter passive aggressive manner. So, this is not the easy way out. But, it is a way to move past it while building more trust and intimacy between the two of you.
OT, I never really know what to expect from you. I really like the way you portrayed that and it's really close to what was going through my head yesterday. I didn't get angry, even inside. I was just saddened by the realization, that as you said, I will probably be feeling like this for a LONG time. I think, IF she DID see him, it was for all those reasons. I truly don't think she has any intention of being with him from this point forward but I also think she feels like if she manages to cut him off softly, that some of the "obsessive" and maybe even dangerous aspects of this guy will not affect our family. I think that is ludicrous but since she is not sharing that part of things with me, I am left to wonder and worry a little.
Right now I am good with having stated my boundary. Since she agreed that it would be best not to see him at all anymore, I will just trust her to do that and to tell me if she doesn't. I am not going to "enforce" it any more than that, i.e. calling her on suspicions, etc. I will just do what I have been doing and let it ride for the time being. I agree, there WILL come a time should this continue, where I will have to step up and DO something in terms of boundaries, etc but for now, they are out there (boundaries) and we'll see what happens.
I am hopeful and confident that she will do the right thing sooner rather than later.
Remember, each time our WASs come close it is followed by a time when they pull back. They are scared and are not yet ready to really completely devote themselves to working on the M. I've seen this happen to others here many times which is why I want you to remember not to get freaked out when this happens. (I see it happening with my H too this week.)
You just have to stay strong and stay the course realizing that this might happen a couple of times before your W is really ready to start the hard work of rebuilding your M. And, above all, DO NOT allow yourself to slip back into old patterns.
Thank you SO much for that VERY timely reminder. I am seeing that right now and I was starting to worry a bit. She is not acting like she wants the OM, or really that she misses him, more like she doesn't know what to make of US. There are still barriers up and I know it will take some time to tear them down. I will do my part to stay strong and BE the man I became over these last few months.
I just wanted to tell you that I am following your amazing progress in relationship and marriage, and as always I am just so impressed with you. I must admit I am a bit envious too. You are SO much closer to where I want to be than I am. So, as I am feeling a bit hopeless about my relationship with my H today, you give me strength to go out there and DB one more day. Glad you're not leaving our board - not only do we need you, but I am quite sure your ride is not quite over yet Nonetheless, the progress is inspiring and uplifting. Keep hanging in there, the gold is begining to separate from the sand...
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
No PL, it's not over by any stretch of the imagination and thank you for the very kind words.
This morning crystallized for me the idea that it's not over. Sure, the A MAY be over, and I do think it is, but the work my W and I need to do is far from over. Actually, I don't know if it's even truly started.
Nothing really happened this morning other than when I was getting dressed I saw a pair of hot pink g-string panties with a heart embroidered on them laying on the floor. They look to have fallen out of something, maybe even the laundry we did last night, because they were kinda up against the wall of the closet, not hidden but not in the right place either (BTW, W does wear g-strings, so that's not the main issue, it's the pink/heart). I have a REALLY hard time believing that my W bought them for herself and while I don't see this as evidence that anything continues between her and OM, it is more evidence that she has and is still lying about it being a PA. I know I talked all big the last couple days about "KNOWING" it was a PA but I guess by this bothering me so much, and it is, that I was holding out hope that somehow it wasn't true. Maybe that's why I said I didn't need her to actually tell me, because I wanted to stay in denial. I don't think that's the case because I really have always thought of this as a PA but...
COULD she have just started feeling sexy with all the attention from OM, even if it wasn't sexual, and bought those panties, and all the other new ones she has acquired over the time she's been with OM? Could she have bought them to wear with me sometime in the future? Sure, she COULD have but that's the point I am now realizing, there are way too many "coulds" in our life right now and its hard to realize that there is no end to that sitch in sight. I think I now understand I need more honesty from her to move forward. Otherwise these POSSIBLE remnants from the A that linger around our house will not only represent the A & OM but also her continuing lies and deception.
The problem is that I don't think she is ready to be totally honest yet, and there IS still the slight possibility that it truly WAS only an EA but... As OT said, I think no matter what, there are a ton of issues she is wrestling with, some seem obvious, like still concealing the exact nature of the A, and others I may have no clue about.
What I learned this morning is that NOW, more than ever is when I need to use my DB skills. The woman is clearly trying to get back to us. She seems to have said and done the right thing so far but I need to heed all your advice and beware of the turmoil that is sure to come. I feel it would be REALLY easy for me to do something or say something that would exacerbate the situation. I need to weigh that fear with my need to be honest with her about how I feel. I need to decide what and when to say something, if at all.
I want SO much to trust my W but I guess that will have to wait. She has a lot more work to do to win back my trust and in the meantime I will have to continue to realize that what I have been doing to this point HAS worked and I just need to keep it up.
I am still turning that corner but it's really hard to see what's around it. Could be another corner...
GH, I don't have the answer to whether or not the g-string panties mean she was having a PA or not but I did want to point something out. For most men, undies are the boxers, briefs or tighty whities that you put under your clothes. They have no significance, they are not meant to be seen most of the time, etc. Women's underwear is different. We DO buy a certain kind because of how it makes us feel. When we are wearing something sexy, we feel sexier. They don't have to be purchased for a specific encounter. I've changed styles of underwear many times, ranging from sexy to just plain comfortable, depending on what emotional mood I am in. From the description of the ones you found, I'd go buy them in a heartbeat because they sound cute and sexy and the perfect thing to wear on a summer day. No one would ever even see them me.
I guess my point is, sometimes we buy styles of underwear like we would styles of shirts. Just because we like them, they are cute and they make us feel good. Not because we wanted to go have a hot, steamy affair.
I don't know if that helps any, but I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about them.
Email & MSN Messenger: Becca_1975@msn.com
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Hmmm... Notice that apparently you aren't willing to be totally honest with her either...
Anyway, feel free to ignore this post, lol. No doubt a lot of this is projection about things that went on between me and my X. But I really think there are a lot of the same dynamics between you and W...
IMPO, what she needs is passion, sex, strength, honesty, confidence, and self-respect from you.
With respect to the self-respect, I'm not sure why you should be willing to live with reminders of OM all over the place. Why don't you share your fear with her and see what she says? If the panties do relate to OM, tell her they hurt you and ask her to get rid of them and then take her to VS for something other than pajamas and warm ups.
With respect to passion and sex, maybe she was waiting for both all weekend and never got either and that is why she is starting to feel frustrated and hopeless. A sexless marriage isn't any better for her than it is for you, maybe worse as she was the first one to seek fire elsewhere. My guess is that she is, or will be, starting to mourn the loss of her identity as a sexual being that inspires and feels passion because she doesn't see a place for that person in your M and nothing is changing to make a place. A woman who is content living an asexual lifestyle doesn't wear sexy underwear like that to begin with...
Now, I believe she told you that she wasn't ready for that in Ireland because she was still involved with OM. What makes you think she still isn't ready?
How much of this "sex being off the table" thing is really all about you, your own anger, resentment, and insecurities? How much is due to you needing honesty about the A to move forward? If that is a big part of it, why not let her know that a great sex life is important to you and that right now your own need for more openness and honesty about the affair is a barrier to that?
BTW, I'm not sure if I can explain this, but you seem to implicitly support the idea that a married woman is not a hot, sexy, horny woman that craves sex. Why do I say this? One example is your 5LL talk in which you quickly say that it isn't all about sex for you in a way that sounds to me as if what you are saying is, don't worry W, I'm not going to insist on too much sex because I know that would threaten and scare a good W like you.
I'm glad you are thinking about how and when to talk to her, it will be good for you to get clear about this in your own head so that if you wait, you know that you are choosing to live with the skeletons in the closet.
Nonetheless, the progress is inspiring and uplifting. Keep hanging in there, the gold is begining to separate from the sand...