I am SO glad to see you doing so well. As always, you're my hero. I see so much similarity in what we are going through right now and for once, I think that's a good thing.
Quote: Realistically, I think she IS afraid she's missing something. She feels 'attractive' now and thinks that she is getting more attention from men because of this. she doesn't want to be 'stuck' in the boring, mundane life of the married mom. I almost feel that if someone asks her out she'd be gone in a heartbeat. It just hasn't happened yet.
I understand this completely. I feel the same way. My W has now experienced the feeling of being a beautiful, desired woman again (not that she hasn't always been but I didn't appreciate it nearly enough) and there is that little voice that says it's only a chance meeting away from being another affair. In my sitch, and probably yours, I think that's where the entire family "package" works to our advantage. Sure, they need to be married to us because they love us, feel love by us and want to be with us, but the reality is that there is a lot more to us than just our individual selves. We come with kids, a house, cars, etc, all things that belong to W as well, and things that they have built, nurtured and enjoyed over the years with us.
Yes, all those things CAN be negatives, but as you said, our W's are starting to realize that they either forgot all the positives or just didn't appreciate them before. Now that WE have changed, it removed a HUGE negative that was tainting the whole picture for them. With our negative energy gone, they are now free to see all the joy that their lives COULD have with us AND their family.
I really believe that as big a turning point as it was for my W to recognize the changes in my and recommit to our marriage, it was equally as big for her to see her role as mom and wife as something that didn't have to be boring or lacking passion. I THINK my W, and probably yours too, now sees that she projected a lot of negative things that were strictly between US as husband and wife onto the entire family experience.
Frank, I love the way you approach this and I think between your W's new attitude, the book(s) you are reading and this great C you have, things are going to work out.
Have patience. Realize just how far you have come and embrace the future that is limitless.
I must confess, I haven't read all of your thread and I hope I'm on the right track here but I wanted to share with you. I'm on my second marriage. I left and pursued the D with my first H for what sounds like the same reasons you're writing about. I felt for years, ugly, a mom with no life other than work, taking care of kids, laundry, etc. Then when my kids reached their teenage years and didn't need me anymore, I looked around and there was nothing left for me. I began giving myself a tune up and looked GREAT, right before I left my H. Now fast forward 10 years, I've remarried to what I thought was the man of my dreams, well 1 1/2 years after we got M, he became involved with a bimbo 20 years younger than him. So you see, it's not "greener" on the other side. Maybe you can share this story with your W. I think she is going through a MLC. If I had it all over to do again, and I have to say, I'm piecing with my current H as I love him very much, but if I could turn back the hands of time, I would have never D my first H. Sure he was self centered and took me for granted for years, but it has been a long, hard struggle. I would have worked on this M rather than working on my current one! I wish I knew then what I know now! I would really like to encourage you to do what you're doing! Show love, show your W your changes. Make them real. Don't go through the motions without sincerity. She sounds like she is needing attention, please continue to give it to her or she will look for it somewhere else. It will be disastereous to your family and believe it or not, even for her. She'll regret it. Don't give up! She is in a dark, confused place right now. IMHO, don't demand anything, just reassure her of your devotion and love for her and your family and you will do anything you can to keep in together.
wow, thank GH and Gwyn for your very insightful posts. I need to digest them and reply.
I just got back from our mini vacation in the mountains. Since we live in southern california we have to go to the mountains to play in the snow. We went to the giant Sequoia forest in Kings Canyon and there was lots of snow and fun. We went snowshoeing and made some snowmen. And of course saw some of the giant sequoias.
W was sometimes acting like she felt awkward around us and a few times accidentally called me 'hon' and 'sweetie' within earshot of the kids. Oops.
We went sledding and had snowball fights and had lot's of fun. W and I almost had more fun that the kids at the sledding hills. In fact, there was zero negativity coming from me on this trip. We haven't had as much fun in a long while.
At one point while we were all out in the woods snowshoeing I asked W if she was having a good time. She said "Are you worried I'm not having a good time?" Now, that might have been something that was true in the past - I felt like I had to keep her 'happy'. Not true now though. So I said to her "Whether or not you are having a good time is not in the list of things I worry about. I was just curious".
I also paused and said "You still look at me through the 'old Frank' glasses and see me that way".
But she's still uncomfortable and behaves awkwardly. She kept a good distance between us most of the time, but then a couple times came over to me and leaned on me or something that was 'touching' me. Also she talked about how we should come back in the summer so we can see stuff that was snowed in. So I don't know if she was 'just talking' for the kids sake or what. If she were to go forward with D or Separation we would NOT be doing things like this together. I would take the kids without her.
I had a sense that D15 was picking up on something going on with W and I that wasn't "divorce like" but she didn't say anything. I read her pretty good and I can't help but think she is wondering what is going on now. Perhaps she'll ask W.
We got home late tonite and after W and I unloaded the car we each got ready for bed. No hugs goodnite from her or anything like that. Just 'good nite' and she went to her room.
I suppose she is 'trying out' being 'mom' and 'wife' to see how she likes it. Each thing we do is a test to see if it will 'be the same'. It won't. The negatives in our past life are gone.
Either way, we had a lot of fun and made some great memories even if 'mom' and 'dad' weren't acting married. And I proved to myself that I could go on a trip with the kids, listen to them whine like they do, and not get angry but instead be understanding. A completely different experience and it was genuine, not 'act as if'.
W has to be thinking about how much fun we had and I even made a point to mention how happy I was to see the girls getting along on vacation and not complaining too much. W agreed that it was great.
So, I get '10 points' in the 'Frank has changed' bank and I feel good about this trip. There were several times when I could have dealt with issues 'the old way' and I didn't.
Don't know what W is waiting for but the 'Frank Train' is in the station waiting for riders to board. She's either really afraid or really doesn't love me any more. I'll keep being patient. I see a little glimpse of her now and then. It would be easier if she would try more. Oh Well.
Wednesday nite. Tonite W and I were sitting together and I asked her how she was 'feeling' about us.
The short answer is that she thinks that she should feel 'something, like passion, like a chill goes up her spine when I touch her' and it isn't there.
I said that we both have trust issues and she agreed. She says she understands how I couldn't easily trust her 'after what she has done'. And she's afraid that once we 'get back together' then I'll slowly go back to the 'old life', and she'll have hurt the kids by putting them and her back in that life. As she put it, doing the same thing with the same people will probably create the same results. And that causes her to not trust me or the changes in me.
I validated and pointed out that it's been almost 6 months since I started my work and that she's also changed but she isn't worried about how long she sees me changed, it's that once we DID get back together that would be the catalyst for me to 'go back'. She just thinks it would be easier to start over, with someone new, and no history.
But, she is still here. She wants to see 'something' happen but it isn't happening for her. Me either. There is a lot of hurt we have both inflicted on each other. I told her that 2 weeks ago I made a conscious decision not go give up on 'us'. I think she believes that I had given up then so it had some meaning that I decided not to.
I thanked her for 'being here'.
She said, how do we get past this trust issue? Isn't Counselor supposed to help us, give us ideas? She hasn't so far. So we're looking for ideas on our own. She does agree this will take time and she's not out the door yet.
After our conversation, we were going to bed and she stopped and hugged me and kissed me. If we could stay in that space more often I think we'd make progress. Perhaps it was the honesty and sharing our feelings that helped build some trust and intimacy tonite.
So, it was a good 'check in' to see where she is at.
The things you are doing will help others as they read on your status.
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
Frank I read your last post and thought oh my gosh its beginning - the big change - the first step towards each other you just had a small future focussed discussion (albeit in the negative but future focussed)
Isn't Counselor supposed to help us, give us ideas?
Well Frank go grab a coffee or something because your 'on-oline' psychologist is going to share some ideas with you and it may be a little long
Maybe you can continue these discussions set aside time once per week w here you can go somewhere quiet together and just sit and talk - you agree to be honest about your feelings and fears
BUT you have to agree to NOT talk in the negative so anything that sounds like 'yes, but' what if, it might not, it won't, it can't because,
is not allowed in the conversation - if someone slips they have to reframe the question in the postive make it like a game (if you have to keep thinking and reframing in the positive it changes your cognition to a more positive thinking one)
Together you can practice Logical Disputing
many upsetting and negative emotions/feelings/thoughts are caused by unrealistic or irrational thinking, therefore you dispute them logically, you challenge the assumption that things must or must not be a certain way,
for example she should feel 'something, like passion, like a chill goes up her spine when I touch her why do I think this - I realise that this type of feeling only occurs in the very first weeks/months of a relationship do I think this because this is how the media and romance novels and movies portray life - when in the beginning of this relationship I used to feel this what other emotions and feelings went along with this - feelings of insecurity, jealousy, possessiveness, unrealistic thoughts of wanting to spend 100% of my time with this other person? this type of feeling happens in the honeymoon phase of a relationship - how many of my friends/acquaintances constantly report that they have these types of feelings daily for the other person in their relationship -
this is just an example off the top of my head but I hope you can see what I mean you can also both have 'thought journals' you can either share them or just share part of them write down in the journal thoughts write down the situation you are in when the thought occurs - what are the beliefs of this thought then write down what the thinking errors are for example shoulds, awfulising, black and white thinking, overgeneralising, personalising, filtering, jumping to negative conculusions, mind reading, blaming, labelling, predicting catastrophe, comparing
have a secion for dispute (an alternative more balanced view - think what would I tell a friend who was in this situation? then come up with some positive actions that you can do in this regard
an example
situation/feelings I am going away for a few days with my wife and the kids I feel nervous as we have been talking about seperating for a long time now
thought she will probably not have a good time - she will think I am trying to do anything to win her back - she will see that things between us are not good and this will increase her resolve to leave
belief I will fail she will think badly of me - I will be uncomfortable, she will see me as being self-conscious or desperate when I should be fun to be around - having a holiday is about having fun and non of us will have a good time - I am responsible for making sure she has a good time with me
thinking errors predicting catastrophe, mind reading, shoulds
dispute I prefer to be relaxed and comfortable and have a good time but if I don't its not the end of the world, I wouldn't feel badly of someone in my position who may be a little uncomfortable I don't think my wife would think badly of me if I were to be a little uncomfortable What kind of a holiday my wife has is within her control and she would not be coming if she thought it was going to be all bad therefore she must also think this is a good idea
Positive actions I will focus my thoughts and energies on myself and interacting with the children - I will make sure that I will give the kids a great time away - if I do this focus on the children and having fun with them that will take away the anxiety I am feeling about my wife being with us
The other thing you can do is write some challenges down on cardboard and put it in you wallet (kinda like flash cards)
>this is inconvenient, but its not a disaster >he/she has the right to accept or reject my advise >hassles are a normal prat of life >everybody has the right to be wrong
understand that awfulising and catastrophising is a natural human tendendency - we all exaggerate the negative consequeces of situations - as a result we experience the situation as if it were truly catastrophic (even though in most cases it is only undesirable or unpleasant) if you think about it by exaggerating the badness we can make ourslevles intensely anxious, frustrated, depressed etc
also if we expect bad things to happen then they will and if they happen but not exactly as we expected we focus on the parts that didn't work for example she thinks that you will slowly go back to your old life - well if she acts like you will her behaviour will ensure that you do if you believe she will find someone else when things get tough and each time things get tough you act like she has someone else - your behaviour will ensure she will think about going getting someone else
she says you may go back - what proof is there of that? challenge the illogical thinking discuss why you would want to go back to who you were list reasons why you wouldn't where you happier then or are you happier with who you are now? What evidence is there that supports this statement of you will go back what evidence is there that contradicts this perception Is this a thinking error? how else can I perceive this situation?
you can also try Goal-Directed thinking so does thinking the way I do help me to feel good or to achieve my goals does thinking Frank will go back to the way he was before help me in having a healthy relationship with him? does it make me feel good?
does staying either angry or untrusting with him help us to be happy together and to have a good relationship?
the problem with this type of thinking is that it makes your wife feel bad and worried and is ruining any chance she may have of happiness (particularly as if she doesn't change how she thinks she will take this habit with her into any relationship she has in the future)
so instead she has to change by focussing on the self-defeating nature of her thoughts and say does thinking the way I am help me to feel good or to achieve my goals?
and think instead I wish to make this relationship with Frank work, I want to be happy with Frank bu feeling this way is ruining my chances of making this work, I can choose to continue to think and feel this way or I can let go of these feelings by accepting that things have changed and that they are likely to continue to change
and finally
the miracle question
should you and your wife go to sleep tonight and a miracle happens - a miracle that changes you world and lives to exactly what you want BUT since you were both sleeping you have no idea that this miracle happened - how would you know it happened? what would you both be doing? How would you both be relating to each other? what sort of clues would there be in your/her behaviours that this miracle happened? how would the children know this miracle happened? how would your friends know this miracle happened? how would your neighbours know this miracle happened?
if you answered for example you would wake up and your wife would smile and say what would you like for breakfast? and then what are we doing today? you need to think in-depth about your behaviour in relation to this and then you act that way (sound a little like acting as if? it should because that is what it is) so you think that you would get up and walk into the kitchen and smile broadly and say good morning XX did you sleep well, what a great day what will we do today? I am sure you get the picture of this one but you need to paint the picture in detail and fill in all the bits how will you be feeling what will you be wearing how will you walk how will you talk will you smile at everyone will you be bursting with plans and ideas for this sunny day
I am sure that you are both at the stage where you can work together on this and discuss it weekly together as I said previously have a journal each learn to challenge the negative it does take a little time but eventually you will both change how you cognitively see the world and each other
you will focus on more on the good the what works for each of you
you are both in a situation where neither of you can actually go back to how it was anyway - you have both changed and over the past few months you are no longer the same people either of you were you just have to keep working on the positive thinking focus on the future - the future you want not the what if's not the what if this doesn't work
and then when you get this working and positive and future focussed allow each other to be human and realise that as humans sometimes we slip but with tools such as positive thinking and support from a positive thinking partner we catch ourselves quickly
I hope that I have given you something that will be useful to you both
Quote: She said, how do we get past this trust issue? Isn't Counselor supposed to help us, give us ideas?
she wants to work this out Frank she just wants someone with ideas to show her how she can make it work
the trust issues that will be about both of you and your abilities to be honest and to communicate your feelings and for the other person to accept these feelings of distrust but if you are both prepared to work on this well you have just taken your first steps to working it out
I hope that I have been able to give you some concrete ideas on how to continue on this path
Today I worked from home to help out W with kids since she had to work today and they are home with Spring Break this week. She was appreciative but I see it as something I would have had to do anyway when we are separated.
She offered me a massage today, first time in a few months. So I went to her office and got a very good massage of course. I was her last one for the day so I waited for her to get her stuff together to go home. She really seemed like she wanted me to give her space. So it was uncomfortable and awkward. I left. Met her at home and she told me she needed space because she did 4 massages in a row and needed a break. Ok, that's pretty normal.
A little later I could see she wasn't in the mood (energy wise) to make dinner so I offered to go out and get take-out. Made her smile. So off I go.
--
Had a chat with Spitfire today about recent events. I think that W is sincere in her desire to 'try to see if it can work'. But, her fears are the blockage. She is so afraid 'we' will go back to the 'old ways' that she just won't let herself drop her guard or feel anything. There's nothing I can do to change this. It's really a symptom of her own self esteem issues. If she had more, she would KNOW that it could nver 'go back' because she would know that SHE would not let it.
One of the things she has never shown me is the desire to DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to make a relationship work. She would rather quit. But quitting didn't work out so far for her.
So, I don't know. Maybe she won't be able to recover the feelings we once had. One thing for sure, I need to continue to focus on myself and my goals.
As I told her last night, "I have alot of things I want to do with my life, and I'd rather do them with you, but no matter what I WILL do them. LIving the 'old life' isn't an option for me"
Ok bj, finally read your post a couple times to properly digest it. I like your ideas, especially the logical deconstruction of negatives and such. I'm going to print this out and discuss it with Counselor and see what she thinks would apply to our specific situation.
it is all cognitive behaviour stuff (being a big believer in CBT and solution focussed therapy) it is the way forward (not backward - can't change the past after we acknowledge it only the future)
I truly think you are on the right road
I am sure your counsellor will be able to help you hone some of the techniques into being useful to help guide you both from negative to positive and from past focussed to future focussed
