Well, I wasn't going to post anything because I really didn't feel like talking about things. But, I did promise to keep posting as things move in some direction with the hopes that my experiences are helpful to others.
Old thread locked, so I decided to move back to 'piecing' after the 'surprise' change in W's outlook last thursday. So technically we are 'piecing' but it's more like we're 'starting over' so that's the name of this new thread.
let's see. 2 days ago as we recall W said she wanted to see 'something different' in the things I do with her.
So , Wednesday ------
I came home and she was in the kitchen standing at the stove making dinner. Nobody was in the room. D10 was in the dining room but that was around the corner. So I thought I would do 'something different'. I came up behind her. put one arm around her waist, and my chin on her shoulder and said 'Hi!'. She turned her head to face me, smiled and looked like she was kissable so I gave her a kiss. She kept her lips straight and had no reaction. ok.
Later Wednesday nite I gave her a gift - a certificate for a massage by one of her favorite therapists. Now, on tuesday she had lamented about how she 'needed a massage' but only does 'trades' with this particular person, and has no 'credit' with her but owes her one, which she is doing thursday. So I thought I'd buy her one so she could either get it sooner, or save it for when she doesn't have any trades 'in the bank'. I even wrote a nice poem I included that talked about how much I appreciate how she takes care of us and works so hard.
Well, I gave it to her, she read the poem and didn't seem impressed. Then she went on about how she has trades already so why did I buy her this? I explained that she could use it any time, when she doesn't have trades, like it was this past tuesday. She was like 'oh, ok. thanks'.
After the kids are put to bed, We sat together and she gets out this book her (sane) friend had suggested we read together. It's called "Embracing each other: Relationship as teacher, healer & guide". It's a kind of psychological / spiritual book on how we suppress parts of ourselves in our relationships, and talks a lot about healing ourselves AND our relationships. Here's a quote from the book:
Quote: "The fairy tale version of romantic love teaches that once one finds the right mate, there is a marriage and then the two live happily ever after. Somehow the relationship magically brings out the King or Queen in each of us; therefore, our task in life is to find the correct mate so that we can be truly ourselves. In contrast to this, many of us now have a real fear that we will lose ourselves if we "give in" to a relationship and make the adjustments that are necessary in order for it to work, that the changes demanded of us by relationship are a weakening or a lessening of who we are." --Embracing Each Other, pp. 227-8
She says she's been reading it a little and wants to read together out loud tonite (something her friend suggested and so did our counselor). Specifically, the chapter on AFFAIRS. Ok.
We take turns reading and discuss (in an abstract way, not talking names or specifics) some of the concepts and how they applied to our 'recent and past life'.
Fundamantally, they say that when we are in a relationship, some of us deny parts of ourselves. In W's case, when we had D15 she went from a pretty sexual woman to a 'prim and proper mom'. As she tells it, she felt like it was 'wrong' to be anything other than a serious caretaker. In fact, because SHE was not well taken care of as a child, she obsessed over D15. So, I was very 'left out', which of course hurt my 'inner child' and I did what I would do when I was a kid - I withdrew emotionally.
So, for years we weren't really connecting emotionally and physically like we had BEFORE D15. And, she wsa denying a part of her that was very important.
About 6 years ago she says, she realizes that she became very close to her female friend who was always over the house hanging out with her. I was depressed and drinking and eventually that was when we had our first breakup. She realizes now that in some ways the relationship she and her friend were having was something like an 'affair' because she was getting her needs for companionship and emotional connection from her and excluding me.
The chapter discusses how affairs 'happen'. A lot of what it says is very much like things I've read in other books but with a more psychological / spiritual view. And remember, we're reading this together at HER request.
Basically, when one persons core needs are not being met by their 'primary partner' because THEY are denying parts of themself, if someone comes along and pushs that 'button' and seems to fulfill that denied need, the person is so desperate for the feelings that they lose all track of the rest of their world and will do anything to keep that feeling going. (Which she did).
It goes on to say that it's so strong that they often find that they can't stop themselves no matter how hard they try.
In W's case, she was denying her sexuality and her need to feel and hear that she was loved for so long, and she had cut off her emotional self from me. Then I shut down. So, when OM came along he triggered that part of her. Of course, it was mostly because he is an emotional predator, a chameleon, so he knew what she needed.
As we read this I think she was looking for me to give her some 'understanding' of her affair, and for her to see it for what it was - an attempt to 'fix' a part of her that was missing. We were very respectful as we spoke about these 'concepts' - without speaking about the actual affair itself. I think she felt some relief that I understood how we got there.
Now, the chapter also speaks about how an affair is so disruptive to a relationship that it will often trigger the other person to go into a 'growth mode'. I think we all know this, as DB'ers, because that's what we're doing - growing to the next level in OUR lives by being triggered in some way from our spouses actions.
She could see that I had done just that - re-examined my life and chosen to grow from this. The chapter makes the point that this is NOT common. It also makes the point that because the inner child has been betrayed that MOST spouses can never forgive the betrayal and hurt. However, those who see it as an opportunity for growth can forgive, and it will often end up creating a stronger relationship because the couple is actually talking about things they had repressed in their lives for years.
She said "Maybe you're one of those people who can do that?"
I looked at her and said "I AM one of those people".
I said "I really hate to think of it, but in many ways if this hadn't happend to us we'd both be still livng unhappy lives. I know we needed to trigger growth and change, I just wish it didn't have to be the way it happened. But I am grateful for the change.'
Overall it was interesting reading, we both shared some of our 'old' feelings relative to what we have learned now. I got the sense that she was looking to see if I COULD truly forgive her, and if she could open her self up again to the parts of her she had repressed for years and be with me. It was good quality time spent together.
Then it's bedtime. As we are 'parting' to go our separate ways she comes up to me and puts her FACE right in mine as if to kiss me, so I kiss her. Same response as earlier. tight lipped, no returning of it. We smile and I leave the room.
Thursday morning we go for a walk together - morning exercise. I actually initiate it and ask her to come along.
I don't recall anything earth shattering that we talked about but afterwards when we were home she came up to me and asked me if there were any sports I like or used to like to do that are 'testosterone' sports. I ask her why and she says that she realizes that she is 'turned on' by a man who is passionate about something 'with testosterone', i.e. some kind of athletic activity. I like biking, hiking and several other things that I mention and of course realize that I haven't done a lot of them for years. My bike needs the wheels fixed because she borrowed it a few years ago and bent one. She's embarrased that she hasn't fixed them. So I took them to get it done.
Later that day we have Couples Counselor meeting. We talk a little bit about how it's hard for me to know what she wants from me and what her boundaries or needs are because she doesn't tell me. It's 'come close' 'go away'. Interestingly, Counselor helps us to see that W has trouble using her 'voice' to ask for what she wants, and in the past I have had trouble LISTENING to her to learn what she needs.
Her family never talked about their feelings, and neither did mine. However, her Dad was a 'I know what's best and your opinion is worthless' kind of person (still is) and my Grandmother was a 'whatever rules exist today in your life will be different tomorrow so you can NEVER be right.' So I generally back off when someone is blocking me.
So, Counselor does an exercise she calls "Don'ts".
She asks W to come up with a "don't" to tell me. For example, W says "When you help me with computer stuff don't talk to me like you think I am stupid" or "When we're areound other people don't embarass me". She comes up with several that are things I never would have thought were issues with her, some that I knew were old behaviors of mine (taking her for granted, for example) and one I would NEVER have guessed because it was something her father used to do thatI could never understand why it bothered her so much when I did it".
I also had a chance to say some "Don'ts", the most important being "Don't think the things I do for you are out of guilt or trying to please YOU. I do them because they give me pleasure. Especially things that have to do with taking the kids places so you don't have to".
I also brought up the Kitchen Kissing episode and she said she felt like we weren't being 'discreet' enough. (baloney) So W said to me that she was 'fine' with 'stuff' as long as we were really discreet.
She gave another example that was really bothering her: When we went out to dinner monday nite she had at one point turned to me and said something like "Babe, would you do...." and she said that she felt so uncomfortable that she said "Babe" in front of the kids. She felt like the whole table froze.
Counselor commented that what she said was 'natural' for someone who has a fondness for the other person. If the kids ever ask her about things like that she should answer "No matter what happens between us, I'll always be fond of your father and treat him well". I thought that was a pretty good way to say "It's ok, you're feeling!".
Overall it was a good session. It aired out a lot of issues in a safe way. W was able to tell me a bunch of things that really bother her with her "Don'ts" and with some of them I was able to show her that I had not done them in months, which she recognized. Several of them had to do with 'social situations' which to me implied that she was either looking that far ahead, or she was just hurt by the past and wanting to say so.
Later that evening I was watching TV and she came and sat on the couch near me. After a few minutes she looked at me and smiled, then leaned over and lay on my chest. I rubbed her head a little. Ten minutes later she gets up and gets a hairbrush and hands to to me and lays her head on my lap and spreads out her hair for brushing. This is new. I brush her hair for a good 40 minutes and I must tell you it's a pretty sensual experience.
She really enjoyed it and I got an occasional 'mmmm' from her. After a while it's bedtime and she's practically asleep, she is so relaxed from brushing. She tells me how much she really likes her hair being brushed and I told her how much I liked doing it. What was weird for me was I can't think of any time in our marriage where either I or someone else, perhaps a girlfriend, has done that for her.
She finally gets up, and says goodnite, goes to her room.
Well, that's pretty much the events of the past couple days. I would say that it's like we are starting all over, she is trying to see how she likes living with me, how it feels to be close to me sometimes. I think she is also looking to see if I will become 'needy'.
We have very little physical contact, it's a lot different than the intimacy of several weeks ago. I spoke to counselor about that and she suggested that maybe at the time SHE was needy and now she isn't so it's not on her agenda yet.
C also believes she is still trying on her feelings. She just needs time to feel safe. I hope she is right.
Today has been uneventful. It's lunchtime and I gotta go. Hope this was not too long!
Wow! Lots of stuff to chew over, in my sitch, and I am sure in many others. I am glad you are moving forward again. Probably wouldn't if it weren't for all your hard work.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Well I think it sounds great. Don't forget, as we first learned when we began DBing, to count the baby steps. These are huge steps for you! One thing at a time. This new communication you guys are having is fantastic!
Email & MSN Messenger: Becca_1975@msn.com
Yesterday Is History
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
Today is a Gift.
That Is Why It Is Called "The Present"
Well, Frank, she just might come through this after all. If she didn't have YOU for a husband I wouldn't give it much hope but your perseverance is what I think is going to see you guys reconciled in every sense of the word.
I know I am not the only one that learns a lot from the details you write so don't ever think your posts are too long.
Thank you for being here and not giving in.
Even I was beginning to think you were beating a dead horse.
Quote: Well, Frank, she just might come through this after all. If she didn't have YOU for a husband I wouldn't give it much hope but your perseverance is what I think is going to see you guys reconciled in every sense of the word.
Thanks for the compliment. There were a few times in the past 5 months where I really felt like it was hopeless. She has been pretty out there, and my emotional state was already at 'less than zero' when this whole thing started. Now my emotional self is at about 80% and I know I am in my power again. It's funny for me to remember on bomb day when I talked to my counselor she told me then, as she keeps telling me now that "Whatever happens with you and W will be BECAUSE of what YOU DO". How true that is.
Quote: Thank you for being here and not giving in.
I wouldn't have done either if it wasn't for the support of people like yourself. Thank You.
Quote: Even I was beginning to think you were beating a dead horse.
So was I. I was close to giving up on her in favor of just taking care of me. Now I believe I can influence the outcome better.
I've said this before, W is going through a very difficult growth and change in her life, truly discovering who she really is as a whole person. Even though Counselor said this from Day 1, I still had to become a whole person again before I could even deal with her issues.
Two battlefronts at the same time.
W was a little warmer tonite. Both kids were at friends house this evening so she called me at the office and asked me to take her out to dinner.
We went to a nice restaurant and had a nice dinner together. It was a little awkward to talk about anything as we didn't really do this for a while. But we talked about life, her dad and some other stuff. At one time she referred to her dad as in "You probably didn't think you'd have to deal with your wifes father that way" or something like that. It was nice to hear her say 'wife'. All in all a really fun time together.
One thing was interesting. She ordered a drink and then asked me if I would feel 'awkward' if she drank and I wasn't drinking anything. I told her that I wouldn't be bothered at all. With the help of my counselor, I see alcohol as sort of something I'm 'allergic to'. I told her that it hasn't really been a positive influence in my life so I really have no desire to drink.
So she looked at me and asked me 'do you really think you will never drink ever again in your life?' and I said 'yes, I do.' It just doesn't interest me and it won't do anything but prevent me from reaching my goals.
She said "It's hard for me to believe that. It's only been a short while that you quit." I told her "It's been 5 months, and I don't need any kind of support group or clinic or anything. I made my choice and you know how stubborn I am. Ask me the same question a year from now."
I think she has a hard time believing me. Sometimes I do too. But I am what I am, and the vast majority of people in the world don't drink, and don't care to. So why do I need this in my life?
It's an easy choice now.
Later we went home and cuddled together watching tv for a couple hours.
Finally went to bed around 11 and when I was standing in the Kitchen as she was getting some water, as she went to walk by me I 'got out of the way' since I didn't want to be blocking her and she paused, stepped towards me, and kissed me on the lips. It was a little more than a 'peck' but not a 'serious' kiss. I think I could have milked ot for more but I chose to back it off so as not to seem like I was 'desperate' for it.
And here I am now, writing this post.
We're planning on going up to the mountains next week with the kids for 3 days, part of spring break. The kids want to go 'see the snow' and 8 days ago we were cancelling the trip because she was 'moving out' and I didn't want to be around her any more.
This is a rollercoaster ride for sure, and I don't know if tomorrow she'llbe cold again. Or if going to her girlfriends tomorrow nite and staying over will cause her to come home with another emotionaly disconnect like it did last time. We will see.
I keep thinking how close I came to quitting over the past few months. But I know that even without the support of others I couldn't quit for very long. It just isn't in my nature. I can absorb a LOT of hurt and still keep going.
I saw your post and I cannot believe where you are at - where you have been or where you appear to be going I am not even sure if you are the same Frank whose thread I used to check on regularly a little while back my god your roller coaster highs are up in the clouds these days
Well it's Saturday. This morning W and I got online and looked to see where we wanted to go for our 'snow days'. We found a nice place in the Sierras where the giant Sequoias are. They have a lot of snow and it's cold there right now.
We had a pleasant time figuring it all out together. Sat next to each other and were close. At one point she is standing behind me as I'm sitting and she starts to play with my hair. She pulls on it a little and tells me how she likes to have her hair tugged a little when I'm rubbing it for her. She's been telling me these little tidbits from time to time about what she 'likes'.
We went up to my room to look through the closet for our various snow pants and other snow stuff. But before we did that she plopped onto my bed and lay there while I sat in a chair and we talked about what we might need for this trip. She seemed rather comfortable in my space.
Then we had the kids try stuff on so we could determine what we have and what we might need to buy.
She found some old flannel jacket she made for me years ago - before she really knew how to sew - and we had a few laughs when I put it on and you could see it was way to big for me. I think at the time she made it I told her I loved it. Now she's looking at it critically and saying 'this never fit you, it's huge'. We both thought that was funny.
We packed what we found and then a few minutes later she comes into the room and decides to sort this other pile of clothes that has been sitting in the room for MONTHS. She intended on selling at a garage sale or giving away I guess but since she doesn't come in the room, it, like a lot of messes she left when she 'moved out' has just stayed there.
But first she sees my 'wizard' hat by my computer desk and puts it on. So she sits on the floor sorting stuff and having D10 try things on to make sure they don't fit before we give them away. Wearing my wizard hat. She looked very cute.
It's hard to just 'stay away' from her when she's looking like that. I just want to grab her and love her to death right then. But, I can't.
A little later we're talking about D15 who she says has 'broken up' with her boyfrined because some other boy has shown interest in her. W says that "I guess this is a good time for her to try out different men instead of when she's older and she can't" which I took as a reference to NOW and W's dilemma - stay married and in a family or go 'explore relationships'. I of course said "She's not dating men, these are boys and she's only 15. You were a little like that when you were 15". She agreed but said that she was 'much worse' which built her shame towards her sexuality.
It's really interesting to see how 'comfortable' she gets, planning the family stuff and being around me while we do it. Rememebring old things we've done in the past that were fun (what? I thought our whole life sucked?). A few times I've patted her bottom or put my hands on her waist and she hasn't protested at all. We ALMOST get close but then she stops.
What I don't understand is, with all that comfortableness, how can she keep her distance from me? How is it she could be that way six weeks ago, and now, when it's supposed to be 'trying' she is more distant?
Realistically, I think she IS afraid she's missing something. She feels 'attractive' now and thinks that she is getting more attention from men because of this. she doesn't want to be 'stuck' in the boring, mundane life of the married mom. I almost feel that if someone asks her out she'd be gone in a heartbeat. It just hasn't happened yet.
But, she is excited about this trip and being in 'the family' does make her happy. I know she's going to be testing me for the 3 days of the trip, but I'm not concerned because I know we'll have fun.
A little while ago she packed up and went to her friends that she goes to once a month to do a bunch of massages for her frined, her friends mom, dad, dads friend. The last time she went, about 6 weeks ago, was after we had our week of 'intimacy'. She left by giving me a kiss then, had told me that I should 'initiate' more stuff with her and things seemed to be progressing. She came back the next day totally shut off and had been since till a week ago when I told her to move out and she changed her whole attitude again, said she wanted to 'try'.
So, this time she left and came to me and said 'give me a hug' and we hugged, while she reminded me of some things I need to do to get ready for the trip. No kiss though. Of course now I'm wondering what new attitude will she have after being away 24 hours and with her single friend who has no relationship experience and would rather see her not with me. It's almost like Deja Vu all over again.
Hey, maybe she will actually miss me! It could happen.
Well, she came back from her friends somewhat disconnected. D15 is having Boyfriend issues too so it's been a stressful evening. W did come and sit with me to watch TV for a little while, even massaged my shoulders for me. She put her head on my lap and I brushed her hair.
It was getting late and I said we should go to bed. So she got up and I did too. She went to go brush her teeth and get ready for bed, and rather than 'linger' like I have been doing the past few nites, hoping for a hug or kiss, I just went to my room and stayed there.
I was secretly hoping she would come and find me to say goodnite, but she didn't. That's what makes this so much fun - knowing that she doesn't have enough feelings for me to bother to find me even to say GOODNITE.
These are of course the parts we find so ridiculous - that we're living with a 'person' used to really love us, and now they can barely scrape together some 'I care' feelings.
Well, monday we're leaving for a 3 day trip. I'm not setting any expectations other than since we will be with the kids all the time, she will keep her distance. The kids and I will have fun so that is my plan. Just have fun.
I sure wish W would wake up those feelings, or get out. This sure doesn't seem like a real 'trying' to me. Well, at least she's stuck with me for the next 3 days so she'll see how much fun I can be.
