The Power Struggle

[PArob]

If anyone can point me to some reading on the DB approach to affairs and how to deal with them I would appreciate it.

Actually, Michelle touches more upon this in Divorce Remedy (in fact, there is a section devoted to it). Essentially, and I am paraphrasing, it tells us to, the extent possible, to ignore the affair and try to rebuild a better relathionship with the WAS. Don't pressure, get a life of your own and deal with the A as best you can. Obviously it takes a lot of patience to do this, but I think the advice is sound. I guess the caveat here is only you can identify what level of A activity you are willing to live with, if any. Yes, self-respect and boundary setting is also very important. Don't become a doormat, but also recognize that forcing the issue is not going to help anyone.

I do apologize if my prior post was harsh and I am sorry if I misread your prior post.

[grasshopper]

Do you think this a bad idea?

Yes.

Look, what you are talking about goes against everything DB/DR stands for. You're pressuring your W, you're focusing on the A, you're involving friends and family, and I guess you feel you can control your wife this way.

As for reading on DB approaches to an A in progress, read my sitch, PArob's, Tim's, Frank_D, Mamabear and MANY others here who have ALL dealt with this through DBing to varying degrees of success.

I am NOT saying that DB is some kind of miracle drug that will cure all in your marriage but I guess the point I was trying to make on my thread earlier today with RB and now to you is that you ARE on the site that is designed to support the DB/DR approach to these things so trying to learn and put into practice the ideals is what most people come here for.

You say you have seen some results from a week and a half of practice. You say that there is little to no discussion about how to change the dynamic of a relationship whose structure has been drastically altered by the addition of a third party. Well, the books discuss it directly, but more than that, most of the threads here AND the books center on the idea that we focus on US, NOT the A or our WAS in order to affect change in the R. Also, going hand in hand with that idea that permeates this board and the books, is the idea that we CANNOT control our spouses and efforts to do so often backfire.

You also say that your wife is CLEARLY enjoying this. Is that true? Is she really happy right now? Really? If she is, then she is quite unlike my wife or most of the other WAS here because once the A comes to light, most of them are miserable.

Look, we ALL have concerns about our self esteem/respect taking a hit from all this. It was one of the first things I said to my W in my first slip up/backslide R conversations after starting DB. I told her that I wanted to be able to look myself in the mirror and like what I saw. Well, I can still do that after 4 months of "waiting" for the A to die and it looks like it just about (or already is) is dead now.

Today has been a strange day for me, mostly spent defending this set of ideals that I have been using successfully to this point in my sitch. I am not a zealot nor do I consider this stuff gospel but in order for anything to work you have to give it a real chance. I am going to get off my soapbox now and go back to normal life...such as it is these days. I am sorry if I came off angry or harsh. It is never my intent to offend or put you off.

I do wish you luck. You seem strong and also seem to know what you want and how you'll think you'll get it. That is a plus in a sitch when so much is uncertain. As RB said, each sitch requires it's own approach and DBing is not for everyone.

GH

[RBinBR]

Muddle,

I'm going to tell you straight up that what you are doing will not work. They are some different strategies for things that work, but every expert out there will agree that pursuing your W and pressuring her is the way to chase her away, not get her back.

I am starting to get to my wits end because any conversation about the affair is viewed as confrontational and sparks an argument. I have surprised myself with the amount of self-control I have in the heat of these arguments, and I have been able to see through her abusive behaviour

You are starting arguments with your W all the time and you're congratulating yourself on your self-control? Get real! How in the world is starting arguments with her going to help her love you more or end the A?

You are trying to control your W. You are trying to "fix" her. I tried this myself before reading Divorce Remedy. Trust me when I tell you that you cannot fix your W. The only thing you can fix is yourself. Fixing her is something you're going to have to leave up to God.

I'll bet you anything that you have been in a controlling position with respect to your W throughout your marriage, that you have always seen yourself as superior to her, and you have failed to truly give her the respect she deserves. That's why she is so full of resentment toward you. I write this as someone who did the same thing in his marriage. My W would sarcastically call me her "psychologist" because I would try to get in her head and presume what she was thinking, and it seems to me that you are doing the same thing.

In your first post, you state that your W is full of resentment toward you. In a later one, you state that the alienation she feels towards your pressure is short-lived! Guess what -- it's not short lived.

Clearly, my wife is enjoying having two men that love her.

I'm with GH on this -- most women in particular do not really enjoy their affairs because they are confused and feel guilty.

Do you think she'll come to her senses and stop on her own?

Maybe. If you let her and give her a little space. Try it, because what you are doing isn't working.

I acknowledge that there is nothing I can do to force an end to the affair, rather I feel that a certain amount of pressure can and should be applied in order to expose the weakness of the affair relationship and help it to fail on its own.

Umm .... "helping" the A to "fail on its own" is itself a contradiction. By the way, what we feel is usually not a very good strategy, in my opinion.

We started marriage counseling, but she is there only for me, so there's little chance that she'll take it seriously or actively participate in it.

So why are you going? Why are you wasting your time?

I have read Divorce Busting and found it to be very interesting and useful, unfortunately it is very clear to me that the techniques are not very useful while the affair is ongoing

DB was Michele's first book. You really need to read her second, Divorce Remedy.

[MuddleThrough]

Ok, ok, uncle!

I clearly stated my ignorance to the DB approach on affairs, so please don't take my point of view as an attack on these principles that you clearly hold in high regard. I found DB a really interesting read, and right in line with my own values so when I found this site I came looking for more. Thank you for your recommendations for further reading.

It's amazing how misrepresented I feel, and I have done it to myself with my choice of words. First of all, I have NOT been overtly pressuring her or starting arguments or pursuing her. I have been addressing issues in our interactions that I have the power to change. I have been pleasant to be around, despite my fluctuating emotional state. I do not start arguments - in fact I have not brought up the affair in weeks, up until a few days ago when I asked what it would take for her to give it up. I do not give ultimatums, or act in a controlling manner. One of the things that my wife still says that she really appreciates about our relationship is that I truly allow her to be herself and appreciate her for who she is. As for a "superior position" - I don't feel that this is the case either, however our roles are somewhat unequal in that I have an outlook and opportunities for positive self growth that she doesn't because of certain "hang ups" that she is working with a therapist to address. Look, I have always viewed relationships as a way to learn about the depths of oneself through deeply loving another COMPLETE person. I do not view my wife as an extension of myself, but rather as my best friend and partner on this journey through life - seeking truth, knowledge and understanding. Experience. I know no more than she does - so I would never attempt to "fix" her, because she is right just the way she is.

Now, this being said - each of us contribute to our problematic interactions, and I know that my wife uses resentment as a way to manipulate me - sort of "if you don't do what I want, I'm going to resent you". I guess my problem here is that the only way for me to change the dynamic of the situation (in any straightforward way that I can understand) is for me to give her everything she wants - which is clearly impossible when her wants are not communicated in a way that I can understand, and are beyond reach financially. Of course, I'm a placator when it comes to conflict, so this is my instinct - however misguided it may be.

Also, I know that she projects responsibility for her shortcomings onto me (which leads to resentment). She blames me for decisions she made, etc. These are clearly issues that have to be resolved in therapy, but they strike at the heart of our marriage, damaging our intimacy. The same can be said about respect - that she doesn't respect herself (often saying she wishes she could be a "real person"), so she thinks nobody respects her.

So how do I address through my actions and perspective these issues to create an environment more conducive to intimacy in light of these points? We are getting along great – at least on a somewhat superficial level, but what is, and has been lacking from our relationship according to my wife has been intimacy and attraction. My feeling is that it’s essential to work on preventing more resentment and chipping away at what remains. So I guess this is clearly why it’s a bad move to take any aggressive action against the affair, because regardless of the reasoning, it will inevitably create resentment.

So why are we going to counseling? Well, at the very least it provides us with a mediated forum to discuss our issues, and to recognize strengths in our relationship that we take for granted through disclosure to a new person.

[PArob]

I guess I don't really have much to add other than what GH and RB have already said. Stop the pursuit, recognize that you do not have the power to change anything but yourself, "interventions" never work and will likely add to any resentment that she may have for you.

Another interesting point that I wanted to touch upon that GH and RB noted. I agree that most W's do not feel "good" about having two people love them and only adds to their guilt and confusion. These feelings are quite evident with regard to my W as I can see the effects (literally, she dropped like 15 lbs) clearly.

Again, DB/DR is not a cure all, but I do believe that it is the best approach available to re-building the R. As for someone who has been on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that pressure and controlling behavior is definitely a turn-off and any "committment" that you receive as a result of it is likely contrived. Just my two cents worth.