* Be brave enough to initiate whenever you feel like it despite the probability that your spouse will say no. If this means every night, then do it every night.
* If your spouse says no, then be calm enough to say..."ok" and quietly go about your business without an annoying convo about it.
* If your spouse says no and tries to punish you for initiating, then have the self-respect to call him/her out for an inappropriate, unloving response...put a mirror up to them. Note: This is where major changes happened in our R.
* Never make it about them - always make it about you but [bold]don't apologize[/bold] for being you.
* Let your unfulfilled desires and feelings put them into the crucible...not those annoying convos.
* Live in the moment. Don't let the past prevent you from taking risks in the present - this preserves the current system and makes it harder to be brave.
For those of you who know my situation, would you say that this applies to me kissing H on the lips? Just do it, but have the thick skin to not freak out if he rejects? Same with sleeping in the bed?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
just comfort myself by thinking about a quote I read in some book about sex in which a HD guy is talking about his HD girlfriend's drive, "She drives me totally nuts sometimes but I'll never give her up!".
"When you develop an infatuation for someone, you always find a reason to believe that this is exactly the person for you. It doesn't need to be a good reason... "
The Beach
This stuff scares me because the first woman who throws herself at me might tap into something I've been wanting for a long time...it might be a hard thing to resist and/or reverse out of. I've always assumed that I could never be happy with someone else...that I need the grounding, stable force of my W which offsets the risks I take in other parts of my life. Luckily I'm eather a big dork or just seem to ignore any signs of interest. Good thing I'm not a woman...it's probably akin to a guy being a rockstar.
Last edited by NotATLDave; 04/19/0607:30 PM.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I think the answer is that you do either of these because you want to, regardless on how he reacts. If the act of doing these things makes you happy, then how does his reaction make a difference? What does being thick skin have to do with it?
Because, doing these things wouldn't make me happy. It's having H *accept* me doing these things that would make me happy. Trying to sleep in my bed and having H say 'I'm not ready for this yet' or worse, is not my idea of fun. Trying to kiss H only to have him get angry with me because 'I know how he feels about that' is also not my version of fun. But if he, by chance, went along with it, then that would make me happy. I'd have to have thick skin to handle the kind of rejection that comes from trying to kiss your H only to have him both reject you AND be pissed.
Maybe in my case, it would be making what I want known, rather than actually doing it? See, these are sort of boundaries that he's created for whatever reason, valid or not. I can't cross his boundaries as easily as he seems able to cross mine. It sounds ridiculous to say, but I'm scared to do it. Not scared he's going to hit me or anything like that. Just emotionally scared. And not sure if it's even a good idea in the first place to cross these boundaries.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I'd have to have thick skin to handle the kind of rejection that comes from trying to kiss your H only to have him both reject you AND be pissed.
Maybe in my case, it would be making what I want known, rather than actually doing it? See, these are sort of boundaries that he's created for whatever reason, valid or not. I can't cross his boundaries as easily as he seems able to cross mine. It sounds ridiculous to say, but I'm scared to do it. Not scared he's going to hit me or anything like that. Just emotionally scared.
That is the core problem. He has firm boundaries (whether right or not) and you don't. Look, I've been through the no kissing thing. It sucks. H did not want to kiss me (when we were first starting to reconnect in the M) and I tried to just go for it. Got a stiff-mouthed response back and him coming right out and saying he just didn't feel comfortable. Ok, that's how he felt. So what did I do? I told him I will not work on a R where the man has no interest in kissing me, let alone all the rest. We were separated at this point but trying to still make it work. That was the final straw for me though. Told him flat out I was going to start seeing other people, he said "I understand" and that was that. I told him my firm boundary and when he was ready to sexually reconnect with me (as well as in other ways) then we were both clear on our boundaries and could make a solid effort at the M. The two of you need clearer boundaries, especially on your end. Why are you so scared emotionally to stand up for yourself and your needs?
Because, doing these things wouldn't make me happy. It's having H *accept* me doing these things that would make me happy.
This is the heart of your problem. Stop depending on other people to determine how you feel about yourself. Read the chapter in Schnarch about differentiation again, and asl the chapter on Hugging Till Relaxed. You are leaning on your H for your own sense of comfort. When he shifts position, you are upset. He has a right to shift. How you respond is your business.
Maybe in my case, it would be making what I want known, rather than actually doing it?
That is a good start. It gives him the option of choosing. But you need to be able to accept his decision either way without feeling like it is a rejection of you.
It sounds ridiculous to say, but I'm scared to do it. Not scared he's going to hit me or anything like that. Just emotionally scared.
I don’t find that ridiculous at all. But it is something you must settle within yourself so it doesn’t haunt you any more. Bring up this fear issue with your counselor. Then learn that holding to your boundaries will not end in disaster.
He will challenge you, especially if he senses your fear. Then he knows that all he needs to do is press a little harder until you break. If he sees resolve in your eyes and knows that you mean business, he will learn not to challenge your boundaries. But that also means you must be willing to enforce the “or else.” Do you state an “or else” when you set a boundary in the first place? If not, then it isn’t a boundary, it’s just a hollow threat.
That is the core problem. He has firm boundaries (whether right or not) and you don't.
I honestly don't know. The first I've ever thought about 'boundaries' was when I first came to this BB. I know I have always been extremely sensitive to H's behaviors....if he didn't like something I did and ignored me for instance, I reacted out of fear. Fear that I'd disappointed him and that I was a crappy person. I would apologize even if I didn't think what I had done was so bad. If he didn't answer my phone calls, I would keep calling him. He had total control over me because losing his approval has been so scary to me. I made it so easy.
Why are you so scared emotionally to stand up for yourself and your needs?
I'm not sure why I don't feel comfortable stating things simply and clearly and matter of factly....it somehow feels arrogant to me. And I tend to change my mind too...when things are going well between H and I, I will not enforce something I've said because I don't want to 'strain' things by bringing up a situation that was unpleasant when we are doing well. Overall, H's emotional intensity is very intimidating to me and I guess I will avoid having to deal with it at all costs. That can't be good, huh?
Stop depending on other people to determine how you feel about yourself. Read the chapter in Schnarch about differentiation again, and asl the chapter on Hugging Till Relaxed. You are leaning on your H for your own sense of comfort. When he shifts position, you are upset. He has a right to shift. How you respond is your business.
I'm only on page 76 of Passionate Marriage. I know I do care way too much about what others think, I am definitely an approval seeker, particularly where H is concerned. I'm competitive, I want to be the best. But 'the best' can be a moving target when you care so much about what others think. I need to define 'the best' for myself and then live by it.
But that also means you must be willing to enforce the “or else.” Do you state an “or else” when you set a boundary in the first place? If not, then it isn’t a boundary, it’s just a hollow threat.
H will not tolerate statements that give an 'or else' type of consequence. He'll belittle it right from the start, thus invalidating it and taking the power away from it unless I am ready to act on it that very second. It makes it very difficult to say 'or else' because chances are, I'll have to implement the 'or else'. Plus he can always 'one up' my or else and make things harder for me in some other way. For instance, if I were to tell H to turn the tv down so I can sleep or else I will have to ask him to take the kids to daycare in the morning, he'll say 'whatever' and then just flat out refuse to take the kids in the morning. And what can I do about it? A version of this actually happened in our M and it ended up with an absolutely ridiculous power struggle where we both actually left our home and left our kids sitting on the couch in the living room. Naturally, I just went around the block and came home. Our kids are 3 and 5....what else could I do??? So that's how 'or else' statements work in our house. They don't.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Maybe in my case, it would be making what I want known, rather than actually doing it?
Exactly. This is key. When I talk about initiating every day, I really mean sharing the fact that you are "wanting some lovin'". it doesn't have to be anything dramatic...just a simple "wow...i'm feeling frisky". If there response is "oh...I'm sorry, I'm tired/sick/not horny/etc" then fine. But if they give you an eyeroll and try to make you feel like a loser for asking, then bust their a$$.
I don't know your story but the principles are universal. A spouse who doesn't want you to express how you feel or wants to make you feel bad for not reading their mind needs to be stood up to. It's no different than being bullied.
Here's a dialog between a HDW and an LDW....
HDW: I'm feeling a bit frisky for ya... LDM: (some negative response) HDW: Why give me crap for sharing how I feel...I just said I wanted you, take it as a compliment. LDM: Well, you are always are pressuring me for S HDW: I'm not pressuring you, I'm telling you how I feel. How does that 'pressure' you? LDM: I don't know. I just don't want it as much as you. HDW: But you want me to be responsible for guessing when you do? LDM: uh... HDW: here's the deal...if you are in the mood, great. If not, tell me nicely that you aren't up for it..and I'll be cool with that. But trying to make it *my* job & responsibility to guess when you are in the mood...that's being a weak, selfish a-hole. Be a man, learn to say "I'm flattered but no thanks".
If he responded nicely like that every day, you would have no problem being rejected every day. He'd see the depth of your "desire" which would put him into his crucible. Remember, a crucible isn't about verbally beating him in a conversation...it's about his acknowldgement of you as someone who refuses to play into his system of weaknesses.
Remember, your spouse is an individual with no obligation to you. You are each silos of different feelings and emotions. Neither has more or less rights or freedom than the other. As you establish yourself into that role and protect it with a convo like the one above, you move toward the differentiation that Schnarch talks about.
Can this shake your house down? Absolutely. Schnarch isn't like MWD with "avoid D at all costs"...he understands that in some cases, a M just won't work. But if having a D arises from you becoming more differentiated, then you will be able to split with pretty clear conscious. Plus you will be better equipped in the next R. Yah. It would suck to be single and comprimising yourself to stay married is your choice...your crucible.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: H will not tolerate statements that give an 'or else' type of consequence. He'll belittle it right from the start, thus invalidating it and taking the power away from it unless I am ready to act on it that very second.
The "or else" doesn't have to be of atomic war proportions. You don't have to be prepared to walk out the door never to come back.
For example, when my bf was drinking, my "or else" at first was along the lines of "when you open your second six-pack, I'm going to bed." My Or Else was that I would not stay in the room with him when he was drinking.
Later after his heart surgery, I knew I couldn't ever be around him again when he was drinking, so my Or Else became stronger: "I can't be under the same roof with you and alcohol ever again." As a matter of fact, he never tested me on that one, but if he had brought alcohol into the house, I would have gone to my house. Since you both live at the same address, you would have to figure out something else.
We had an extensive convo on boundary setting on this board several months ago. It was me, Cobra, Corrie and a few others. It was great and really helped us pin down this elusive concept. Anyone (cobra?) who remembers the details of that, please jump in.
Boundary setting is about YOUR behavior. It is not about making the other person do something. It is not about threatening them with dire consequences to THEM unless they do what you want. It can in fact work that way, but that is not the primary intent. It is sometimes a side effect.
The primary intent is to state clearly what you will and won't do under certain circumstances. If the other person chooses to interpret that as control, pressure, threats, well, let them. That is something you CANNOT control.
On the turning the TV down example, you can request that your H turn down the TV so you can sleep. You have to recognize that he does not have to do what you want. So you have to figure out some way to get some sleep. Get earplugs, sleep far away in another part of the house. It is not "setting a boundary" to tell him "do this or else."
The next morning, you can ask him to take the kids to school, and if he doesn't, then you'll have to do it. Someone has to be the grownup. You must stop the power struggle. You can request something, and then if he doesn't do it, you can leave, do it some other way, do it yourself, leave it undone. YOU CANNOT MAKE HIM DO ANYTHING. All you can do is act on your own behalf and the children's behalf when necessary.
Heather, you do have a chip on your shoulder, and I'm not saying it isn't justified-- it probably is. But it's getting in the way of your serenity and peace of mind.
I want you to get this picture in your mind: Your husband is standing down in a pit, a pit where people wrestle. You're up one level behind a railing on a mezzanine that runs around the pit. He stands down there and motions to you, "Come on down here and get into it with me! I know you want to! You can't walk away, can you? I know exactly how to get to you!" But you just stand there and look at him. You notice the knot in your stomach, the clenched hands, the sweat beading on your upper lip, maybe even the beginning of a headache. But you do NOT jump in that pit with him. You walk away and do the dishes, pick up the kids, run the errands, whatever needs doing in your life. THAT is self-care and self-nurture.
Remember, when you are so concerned about reacting to him, pleasing him, trying to get through to him-- when all of your thoughts are about him, who is there for YOU? The answer is NO ONE. You're like a little kid who was forgotten at the mall or at the grocery store because the parents were so busy fighting. When we are so focused on someone else, we abandon ourselves. And you must not ever abandon yourself. You must be able to count on yourself to put your welfare at the highest level of priority. If you don't, who will?
I would highly recommend you attend alanon for a while. It's free and there you will hear stories about people taking care of themselves, finding inner peace, disengaging from their partners' destructive behavior. You never have to say a word; you can just listen.
You need to start making self-respect and inner peace high priorities with you, and remove yourself from conversations and threaten your peace of mind. You do not have to jump in that pit. Jumping in there will not change his mind and it will not bring you closer to where you want to be in this R.
Remember that undifferentiated people want others to fuse into their own system of weakness. By saying "don't ever blah blah blah...", we might actually be trying to engineer that person's role inside our own system and they may trying to do the same to you. So be careful with boundaries and what is defined as a boundary. It might be a "fusion fantasy".
Quote:
I can't cross his boundaries as easily as he seems able to cross mine
Understand that you have two different personalities and that's just "who you are". My W might complain that I never blah blah blah but that she always does blah blah blah. Instead of apologizing, I usually just say..."I guess that's the difference between you and me". It sounds like an a-hole thing to say but you shouldn't allow yourself or your partner to view ANY aspect of the relationship as "because I do this...you should too".
Wanting your anyone to mirror *your* values is plain is one thing, it's a bit misguided, but the act of punishing them for not sharing your values is absolutely wrong. In between there's an area where you look at their values, examine the differences, and look at it in more of a judgemental way. You ask yourself can I tolerate a person with these values? How much of myself does this person deserve? This applies to your relationships with everyone.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
