What Happened with the Schnarch Movement???

[honeypot]

Dave,
Good to see you around!

Say, lemme ask you this.

As the female half of our M, I have never been the primary initiator. I don't even initiate half of the time. I could go into the reasons here but suffice it to say that neither of us like the Female Initiator setup.

So what do we lady Schnarch fans do? I loved your advice and especially the part about letting your feelings put them in the crucible, as opposed to convos, but I'm not sure how to do that in the absence of me initiating.

I can tell you that were I to initiate every time I wanted sex, things would get MUCH worse in my house--not better, Schnarch or no. Call it male ego problems, call it what you will, but it just wouldn't work.

Any alternative ideas for the HDW's of the board?

Thanks!

P.S. I never did get the pedals of D6's bike but she learned how to ride the dang thing, anyway.

[Cobra]

Dave,

I didn’t know you were still watching the board. I’ve been reading up on your past threads so I’m glad you’re here. Since you seem to have successfully applied Schanrch to your marriage, what other advice can you give to us here, assuming you’ve been able to keep up with some of the posters?

Reading your history I have the impression that your wife was never extremely detached or angry to the point that she withdrew from the marriage. So she seemed to respond well to your changes and growth. I know there was a “learning curve” for her, as she adjusted to the new you, but you also seemed to put in a LOT of time and thought analyzing everything that happened to prevent mistakes and follow up on successes. Is my interpretation correct?

Some of us seem to have spouses who are more resistant to growth than your wife. I have the impression that little progress will be made in without applying a certain amount of pressure, “rattling the cage” as Corri puts it. Do you have any insights here?

Let me also ask you a specific question about CeMar (I do not mean to pick on you CeMar, so don’t take this wrong). I see CeMar as an very interesting example. He has been on this board for years, and I cannot tell any difference in his postings now versus three years ago. There is some major blockage keeping him from moving forward. Maybe he is doing all he can and it is his wife. But I view him as a VERY extreme case. Progress in his sitch could reveal some valuable insights for all the rest of us. Any thoughts?

[karen1]

I have a similar issue to HP. If I initiated every time I was interested the man/woman dynamic in our R would really hit a snag. H likes to see himself as a very masculine guy and having a W who is the principal initiator seems to mess with that. He really likes me to initiate and be the sexual agressor once in a while and he relies on me to take whatever mild attempts at initiating that he makes and ramp up the situation into sexual heat but when I iniate too much or too close together we get problems. I have come to suppose that to follow Schnarch I should still initiate whenever I want but not accept less than enthusiastic participation until H is willing to take up the guantlet of initiation. I don't know. This issue is difficult when you are a woman who really values being pursued as part of her sexual satisfaction.

Karen

[Corri]

Kids:

I don't mean to answer for Dave, but....

BE YOURSELF. Express who and what you are, authentically. Dave's point here is... go with THE MOMENT. Most of you are anticipating problems based on past experience. What Dave is saying is, if you want to initiate, initiate. If you get turned down, deal with it in the moment. The ensuing explosions you are all referring to is exactly what Dave is talking about.... THAT is the crucible. Then follow the rest of his advice.

Corri

[NotATLDave]

but I'm not sure how to do that in the absence of me initiating.

Initiate

I can tell you that were I to initiate every time I wanted sex, things would get MUCH worse in my house--not better

That's a negative prediction. You are preserving your system with that. Bad girl.

If and when you are ready to change the marriage, then you need to push out of the comfort zone. So initate. If things get worse, then let them get worse. But what do you mean by worse? You mean your H will feel like less of a man? Will he "look" like less of a man to you? Will he reject you/your feelings/your desires with disrespect? Will he retreat? Then you have something to work through. By refusing to assume that role, you are preserving your own system and you know it.

I can see the concearn from the HD ladies...you don't want to immasculate your spouse. I may be going out on a limb, but the issue is probably less about how *they* actually respond and more about *your* need to believe that they are the big "virile man". Can you make a system work where you are the sexually dominant initiator? Can you still be attracted to him in that system? Your avoidance of a dominant role means that you are creating somewhat of an artificial reality. Schnarch talks about this...that the person we married never turns out to be the person we married. So is this is how your life will be? An endless cycle of frustration relieved by an online support group. I'm not knocking it if this is acceptable to you.

I'm fairly content with my sitch and I don't feel the need to change anything. Maybe that's actually where you are and maybe this site is your way of keeping yourself occupied. I'm keeping myself occupied by living in the wackiest, most difficult countries in the world...by the end of the day, I just want to go to bed.

[chocolateeyes]

The measurement of success should be finding a working situation that you are (basically) happy with. Most of our misery from this comes from our own failure to do the things listed above. Once you do these things, you will be surprised how bright the world looks and how you might not need as much sex as you thought. Your self confidence that comes from this will make you not really care if you are "desired".

Dave,

I appreciate the advice, and I'm glad these principles have made you happier, I really am. But the above state that you describe, I must say, holds absolutely no appeal to me.

This is a "sex-starved marriage" board, and most of us found it by looking for resources to help us have more, and more satisfying, sex in our marriages -- particularly ones with clashing libidos. As I have stated repeatedly on here, it seems to me that, applying SSM's and PM's principles have led to basically three types of people on here:

1) Those for whom it's not working -- they're still not having any more sex, and/or the sex they are having is no more satisfying than before; and they are therefore still unhappy;

2) Those that still aren't having any more sex, and/or the sex they are having is no more satisfying than before, but they have applied "Get A Life", "self-soothing", "differentiation" and other principles to help them be more content in their still-sexless (or sex-starved) marriages.

I've called this "Hey, I'm still not gettin' any, but don't my triceps look really nice now!"

3) People named "NOPkins."

Initiating over and over again (you say "every night") and getting repeatedly rejected is not "bravery" to me, it's folly. Were it to lead to an actual return to my wife's former level of desire (or even something resembling it), I would steel myself against the wind and plow forward.

Sadly, I think I (and CeMar, and maybe some others) ARE looking for "my wife to become more HD", or at least return to something resembling the level and the quality of the desire she used to have for me. The lead paragraph on the back cover of Michele's book says:

"Bring the spark back into your bedroom and your relationship with gutsy and effective advice from bestselling author Michele Weiner Davis"

To simply become more accepting and more skillful in handling her rejection and my lack of a satisfying sex life holds ZERO appeal to me. I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm in the wrong place.

Just being honest.

Chocolateeyes

[Cobra]

Dave,

I had another question I meant to include… Sometimes I think it is difficult for us Schnarch newbies to identify the real issue at hand, to see what truly should be placed into the crucible. I think a lot of this depends of being able to differentiate and separate emotion from objective evaluation. Failing to do this has caused my wife and I to get sidetracked on some superficial issue whose resolution may make us feel good for the moment, but does nothing to cure the source of the problem. So the same argument keeps coming up again and again. The futility of this has caused each of us to withdraw and throw up our hands, seeing the situation as hopeless. Without any prospect for breakthrough, all we could do was to solidify our defenses. I think relationship education is the key to overcoming this, but have you found anything else that may help?

[NotATLDave]

So she seemed to respond well to your changes and growth. I know there was a “learning curve” for her, as she adjusted to the new you, but you also seemed to put in a LOT of time and thought analyzing everything that happened to prevent mistakes and follow up on successes. Is my interpretation correct?

Actually, my perception is that she changed or grew very little. Just 2 changes...1. She's very respectful of my initiation and rejects appropriately. 2. She doesn't say no very often. It's no difference to her whether we have sex a few times a week or a few times year...so it's up to me to ask. Sure I'd love more initatiation from her but at the end of the day, she is who she is and I am who I am.

Now, living abroad has contributed to her growth in much greater ways that all the crap I put her through in the past. With her growth, I'm seeing her in a new light as someone who accepts adventure and can handle adversity with grace (trust me..this place is adverse). I used to complain about how timid and scared she was and she's really cleaning up now. If you read between the lines of my old posts, you probably noticed that I struggle with my feelings towards her. I think a lot of the folks here struggle with that. I saw her as a frightened, immature child but she's becoming much braver in the big scary world which is casting a good light on her (for me). So this is something I intend to repeat.

I think everyone on this board should consider a major change in their domestic situation...turn your world upside down, shake it up and see what happens. You don't grow muscles by lifting a bar with no wieght on it.

Some of us seem to have spouses who are more resistant to growth than your wife. I have the impression that little progress will be made in without applying a certain amount of pressure, “rattling the cage” as Corri puts it. Do you have any insights here?

In my sitch, I could have avoided a lot of stress had I known what to do. It might have taken some rattling to be heard. In our case, the real rattling wasn't in a convo or a fight, it was in the form of a couple thousand dollars sliding under the door of a C. I stand by my belief that your EAP insurance is worthless for C because the Cs suck and there's no outlay on your part. Your situation may be different...maybe it's the threat of a D (loss of security for your S), or a PA (jealousy), etc.

Let me also ask you a specific question about CeMar (I do not mean to pick on you CeMar, so don’t take this wrong). I see CeMar as an very interesting example. He has been on this board for years, and I cannot tell any difference in his postings now versus three years ago. There is some major blockage keeping him from moving forward. Maybe he is doing all he can and it is his wife. But I view him as a VERY extreme case. Progress in his sitch could reveal some valuable insights for all the rest of us. Any thoughts?

CeMar has burned neural pathways so deeply and permanently into his narrow mind, that he will never, ever, recover; not in this marriage, nor in any subsequent marriages. My advice about "nipping bad thoughts in the bud" is sage. I took Buddhist meditation courses which focused on burning good pathways into your brain. Even the things you write here are dangerous. I find it best to not write/read my own negative thoughts or perceptions about my R. They will become self-fullfilling.

[karen1]

Perhaps I haven't been clear. I do not want to be the main initiator of sex in my M and by his actions I don't believe my H wants me to be either. When I initiate too much I don't enjoy it as much. When I initiate too much H feels pressured and isn't present during sex even though he rarely turns me down. To be authentic I want to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with me. Being authentic then means that when I want sex but initiated the time before..............what?

Karen

[NotATLDave]

Hey Cobra,

I really appreciate your sincerity and respect your efforts. Everyone's situation is different.

The best thing that happened to us came from counseling and it had nothing to do with sex. It was about communication and we discovered that we both had a bad habit of assuming that we were being heard and understood. Turns out we are terrible about assuming that others know what's in our mind. The reflexive listenening mode really helps...when a conversation starts to get emotional, it's usually because we aren't being understood. Asking "do you understand what I just said?" doesn't work because they did, in their mind, understand what you just said. You have to repeat back what you heard and ask them to repeat back what they heard.

Promise each other that when an argument happens, that you have a signal for going into "reflexive" mode.

Again, this might not be the fix but it helped us because our C saw our "system" and recognized it. I feel really lucky that we found a good C.

I had another question I meant to include… Sometimes I think it is difficult for us Schnarch newbies to identify the real issue at hand, to see what truly should be placed into the crucible.

What I finally discovered was that it doesn't take that much thought or intellect. It's a simple matter of becoming more like a cave-man and asking for what you want when you want it.

I want to discuss another major personality flaw which plays into relationships (not limited to marriages). It's the punshment of others for not reading your mind. I used to be very guilty of this. My mother-in-law would always offer me coffee despite telling her every time that I don't drink coffee. I got to the point where I would almost get angry when she offered and I'd go to lengths to explain how I've never had more than a couple drops of coffee in my mouth etc. - trying to train her to be a part of my system so I wouldn't have to say "no thank you" to her. The truth is, I hate to say no to people or reject generous offers. My mom is the worst about wanting me to be a mind-reader...she's called me an "insensitive sh..head" when I asked her why she was crying...I was just reaching out but I got in trouble for not knowing why she was sad.

Schnarch talks alot about this type of system. It's something that both partners need to be aware of. Asking to have sex should be seen as a bid to connect and should be responded to with a gracious "no thank you" (well, better would be ok yah baby!).

My mother-in-law was being nice and generous and I was being an a-hole. I now respond accordingly with a sincere "no thank you, but thanks for the offer" and have stopped my crabby mind from thinking "what a moron". Life is a million times happier when you hit the reset button each time you encounter someone and pretend you are meeting them for the first time. Comes back to living in the moment.


Like my mother in law, you shouldn't modify your desire to offer (or ask for) something just because theirs a past pattern of rejection. I might someday discover that coffee is the greatest thing since sliced bread and be thrilled when she makes the offer.

These are just some of my "highlight thoughts" that I still carry with me. I'm just trying to do a brain dump so that maybe something sticks and helps.