The only way my wife could NOT realize the extent of my unhappiness is if:
1) She thinks the 15-20 earlier "come-to-Jesus" conversations we had in our marriage about the subject were not genuine on my part;
2) She thinks the complete soul-baring, gut-wrenching, pour-my-heart-out sessions that I had with her 4-1/2 years ago, when I considered leaving, were just so much hooey on my part;
3) She suddenly lost her ability to read me , which I highly doubt, as she's "a", very good at this, and "b" has always said to me "Choc., you are an open book, emotionally -- you wear your feelings on your face, and indeed your entire body."
No, she knows. She's just some combination of
unwilling doesn't care to confused as to how
to do something about it.
And for my part, I very much know how unhappy SHE is. There are times when i think she is even borderline depressed. I think she wants -- needs -- me to be the happy, cheerful, masculine, confident guy that she married, and I even think she wants me to WANT her; but she also wants to not have to actually DO anything or make any real changes to give me the things I would need to have in order to feel and act that way.
She wants to be seen by me as sex-Y, but without having to have any actual SEX with me.
But you are correct, I am taking no real risks . . . currently. I decided, for right or for wrong, that I have bared my soul to her for the last time and that the ball is in her court. One day, she may decide to pick it up when she thinks it's important enough. But I am no longer willing to do so.
I wish you would post more…. your comments seem to get the point across so much better than I. That explanation of walking along the abyss is right on.
While I have been pushing your phrase of “rattling the cage,” I wonder what people understand from that term. To me, the only rattling that needs to be done is to prompt your spouse into making a decision which is needed to move forward. That decision needs to be presented as a two choice dilemma. Only that particular dilemma needs to be addressed, so the rattling only needs to be proportional to that choice.
Too large of a rattle can feel like manipulation and coercion to the other person. But in my mind, it still is manipulation, even if it is only indirectly made. Personally I have no problem with this as long as I believe my objective is not self serving but for the good of both partners, as best I can determine. I wonder if people think rattling the cage means in-your-face confrontation, which is scaring them off? I just thought I’d try to clear that issue. Does this sound like what you have in mind?
I think your statement that you are not taking any risks is important and is what I think is holding you back. I have not been able to understand the logic you are pursuing:
So was it Schnarch's concepts and techniques, or was it that you had to threaten to leave the marriage?
I've never doubted that the latter works, but am still looking for successes with the former, whether it's SSM, PM, or whatever. Particularly sitches where only ONE partner is working at it.
How is it possible for only one person to repair a marriage without input from the other? Say for argument that someone tried to do this, that will the spouse was away on a long trip, the other remade themselves as much as possible into a new person. Would this fix the R? Maybe, if by chance this person was very lucky.
This would mean they would have to have such great insight into exactly what is was about their former self that needed to be changed in accordance with their spouse’s wishes. So they would have to psychic.
They would also need the knowledge on how to make those changes and be able to provide their own feedback to be sure they were on the right course and not straying into an undesirable behavior.
They would need to reign in their own ego and pride and suppress any resentment that only they are making changes only for the approval of their spouse. (That would be a mighty tall order for many of us).
Lastly, this begs the question that if this person had all this ability and knowledge to make such a transformation, what didn’t they do it long ago?
But I’m not sure any of this is what you refer to. Are you saying that you would like to find a way to improve the marriage by improving your wife, rather than you, but without her working on it? I know you can’t mean this. So all that is left is for you to work on your self.
The purpose is not to transform into a new being, but to come to terms with what you truly want. Resolve inconsistencies and hypocrisies. Confront as many two choice dilemmas that you are able to as an individual, without input from your partner. Then face those dilemmas that need partner choice, but first become ready to accept either choice they may make. Presenting this dilemma to them is how you “force” you partner to grow and work on the relationship with you. As long as they stay in the marriage, you can “force” this growth. That growth only stops when they opt out of the relationship.
If you are smart, the order and magnitude of the dilemmas you present to your partner will be VERY CAREFULLY considered and evaluated first. As Corri noted, the risks are high so mistakes must be avoided. To take on this task, we must prepare ourselves, which is what I see as the number reason for this forum.
Choc, Your wife knows that you used to be unhappy and that you, without explanation, stopped saying anything about it.
So she probably assumes that you came to terms with the situation, have accepted her as is and decided that you are ok with the status quo.
Why would she think otherwise? Sure she knows she is not a "wife" to you, but she also sees a relatively happy guy living with her, being nice to her, taking care of the kids..essentially a person who is content with their life. Denial is a very powerful thing and while she knows at some level that you don't like your life this way, she has NO IDEA the extent of your unhappiness. She sees a guy who has seemingly come to terms with a sexless life and she is okay with that. She misses the feeling of knowing that she is desirable but she is too shy/awkward/insecure/proud to say anything. She figures "If he thinks he's going to smoke me out, he's wrong. I can outlast him anyday."
I find your sitch so tragic. Two people who could really have an outstanding M are mired in an unspoken war.
I realize, both intellectually and also from reading others' experiences here over the past 2+ years, that confronting these issues in my marriage, with my wife, is going to be HARD. It's going to get nasty before it ever gets better (if it does even get better), she will be made miserable as she's pushed outside of her comfort zone, I will also, and my kids will have to witness at least some of it. It will be messy.
I am willing to do that work, and go thru that mess, if:
a) My wife shows a genuine interest in helping us do that; and
b) I think it has ANY sort of reasonable chance for success.
That, I think, is the thought process behind a few of us on this Board who have been looking for "Success Stories" recently. It is as a motivation to break out of "don't-give-a-chit-ness" and confront the demons in the marriage bed.
Nothing more than that.
So far, I have not seen enough evidence of a reasonable chance at success in order to counteract the fear/complacency/comfort zone/apathy that I am in right now. Hell, it's damned hard when BOTH spouses are trying, and realize there's a problem!
I understand. I faced that same dilemma too. Time will take care of that. Either you settle into accepting things as they are or the frustration and resentment builds to the point you cannot take it anymore. If you decide to press for a change, but that point is a few years forward, it is possible that things will be even harder to overcome then than they are now. And in the meantime, you are living with the all the negative undercurrents and how that impacts the kids.
I decided I was not going to wait another10 years of putting up with that mess. I also believe that while things would get worse, the healing that would come from a repaired marriage would be the best therapy for the kids. I believe the message in seeing their parents work together to make a happy home can do more for them than all the therapy in the world trying to heal the wounds from years of walking on eggshells. I believe the sooner problems are addressed the better. But that’s just me.
What PM did for me is to help me realize that my desire for emotional/physical closeness was a legitimate "need." I began to push for what I felt was something just so basically human...and received a lot of half-hearted attempts. The anxiety of living this way became greater than the anxiety of living alone. I do feel I had to threaten my H with separation in order to get him aboard...but the thing is, it wasn't a threat---it was real and I was dead serious, and I guess that came across.
I learned in the process how much I truly wanted to save the marriage, that eventually even I had limits, and that my H had a bond with me that he didn't want to lose. It was exhausting and I do hope you find an easier way to improve your marriage.
I agree, that was an excellent post Corri, it's so true. I guess that's what people really mean when they say "you'll know when you're done" because you really do know when the time has come to push as hard as it takes to institute the change you need. Self-preservation is a great way to put it.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Lil, I am leaving tomorrow for a few days ( going to Puerto Rico with the family) so I can't get into a new thread now, but thanks for asking about me. H and I are in " working together" mode...major changes have been his starting his own therapy and being more tuned in to my general state of being. We have figured out that I have a mood disorder ( I have of course known this but he now seems clued in) and that he has ADD and an anxiety disorder. We're playing around with nutritional supplements and talking a lot about quality of life stuff.
Sexually, I am not as nearly revved up as I was 2 yrs ago when I joined the board. I kind of miss that part of myself...even my fantasy life is not what it was. The drama has been replaced with calmness. H and I make sure to have some sort of emotional/sexual bonding every nite; I leave it up to him as to how far he wants to take it. I seem to be more patient and allow him time to become aroused from the connection. It's relaxed and safe...I'd like to see him take some more risk, but I am just so happy to have this level of comfort that I just leave it alone.
I am having a little pre-trip anxiety ( which is probably why I am on the board a lot today). I had asked him a few months ago to plan a little family escape...this is usually my forte, being the organizer...but this time he's in control of the details. He just called to ask me what time we are leaving and I got a little pissy with that...told him he can look it up when he comes home( siad in a nice way... I am just plain nicer). I have taken care of my end...the kids' packing, the dog, etc...sheesh!
We have done a lot of talking about the past, in particular, my depression, how I went it alone, how he never knew I went for help, was on meds, etc., that I felt I didn't have his support. I know he feels bad about this and has told me over and over that I should have explained it more to him ( thus my comments to HP on her thread).
I will post more next week...have a good one, all!
