GH, I'm glad my thoughts can be of help. Along the sexual side of things, I've been thinking you and your W might benefit from taking the quiz in the Five Languages of Love
At the top of my H's list is physical touch while I value quality time. Not understanding this about each other probably led to problems between us. He didn't understand I wasn't trying to keep him from his friends, I just wanted to spend time with him. And I didn't understand he didn't just want sex, he wanted to be close to me.
I know you and your W have had some sexual issues which is why I'm getting into all of this. Perhaps this is too much info, but, for a long time I felt like my only value to my H was for sex. Most of the people in his life are very well educated, PhDs and such. I've had a little chip on my shoulder about not feeling as smart and him valuing physical touch made this worse for me. Recently as my H and I have been able to really talk about things, he told me that what I thought was really the opposite of the truth. He said. "I wanted to have sex with you because I loved you so much."
I can't tell you how much of an impact that had on me, combined with taking the love languages test. I'm not saying that your W feels as I did, but it can't hurt to take the test and explain the reasons behind your wanting sex with her. (Besides the obvious )
Oh, and have you read "Make Up Don't Break Up." It has some good strategies for fighting fair, validating and getting your opinion/feelings across. It's good you are learning to pick your battles (it's something I'm learning too) but it's not good to bottle in your frustrations. That is how some of us got here to begin with.
Quote: I'm glad my thoughts can be of help. Along the sexual side of things, I've been thinking you and your W might benefit from taking the quiz in the Five Languages of Love
Well, this would fall under my W's total disdain for anything "self help" related. She hates it, she really does. So getting her to take this kind of quiz, ESPECIALLY now. I really wish she would give this kind of thing a chance but she is SO convinced that she doesn't need any help and these tests and such are tools of fools. To each his/her own I guess. I sometimes wonder what she thinks of me reading the books (not that I leave them laying around but she knows), going to my IC and being on this board. I know she SAYS she respects my decisions in these matters but I really wonder. No real worries though. I do it for me, not her.
In the end, even if my W would take this test, now would not be the time. She isn't even ready to admit that I am the one she would have a "love conversation" with so us knowing our respective languages would not mean anything...yet. I have taken the test and physical touch is FAR and away my language. I have also taken it from what I think would be her perspective (dangerous I know because if I really KNEW her language, well...) and she was Receiving Gifts (or whatever that one is).
Quote: At the top of my H's list is physical touch while I value quality time. Not understanding this about each other probably led to problems between us. He didn't understand I wasn't trying to keep him from his friends, I just wanted to spend time with him. And I didn't understand he didn't just want sex, he wanted to be close to me.
So, my as physical touch and married to a woman who seems to not enjoy touching me for whatever reason probably caused problems I was even unaware of. My W being (I think) someone who likes gifts and me having stopped that practice of little romantic, or otherwise, gift giving years ago didn't help matters. I know my W feels that the only reason I want her to touch me, or I want to touch her is for sex. I think she is right to think that because in the past, it usually only happened in the bedroom and DID lead to sex. It's only now that I have discovered things about myself that I realize that all along I wanted more than just sex.
Quote: Perhaps this is too much info, but, for a long time I felt like my only value to my H was for sex.
No, I appreciate this because I know my W may feel the same way. Anything I can use to understand my sitch better is all good to me!
Quote: Recently as my H and I have been able to really talk about things, he told me that what I thought was really the opposite of the truth. He said. "I wanted to have sex with you because I loved you so much."
I can't wait to get to that place where I can say those kinds of things to my W and it MEANS something to her. Right now it seems like anything I say is just perceived as a ploy to get her back. That's why I am so hesitant (well, than and a healthy does of irrational fear that is) to initiate a R talk now. I really feel the same way as your H. To me, sex is ALL about love because in my M it is the only time my W expresses physical affection for me. Obviously being someone whose love language is physical touch, this time of physical affection is VERY important to me beyond the enjoyment of the act itself.
Quote: I can't tell you how much of an impact that had on me, combined with taking the love languages test. I'm not saying that your W feels as I did, but it can't hurt to take the test and explain the reasons behind your wanting sex with her. (Besides the obvious )
As I said, I hope to get to that point, and really, now that I think about it, this expression may be one of the first things I say to her on the matter. I don't think the time is quite right for THAT conversation but I will queue it up and make sure when the opportunity is there, I tell her. I don't know what, if any impact it will have on her but I do understand it's importance.
Quote: Oh, and have you read "Make Up Don't Break Up." It has some good strategies for fighting fair, validating and getting your opinion/feelings across. It's good you are learning to pick your battles (it's something I'm learning too) but it's not good to bottle in your frustrations. That is how some of us got here to begin with.
No, I have not read that book. As much as I am on the internet, I don't shop here much and it seems like Amazon is the only place to get that book. Neither my library nor local book stores carry it. I suppose I will have to break down and order it.
As for bottling in my frustrations/feelings, I do think that is becoming a problem for me. As I will post in my journal for today, I am getting emotional again and it's due to keeping a lot of stuff in. I know it needs to get out.
I feel another lockout coming on...lol. I think I am out to set a record for most prolific thread maker...
So last night was another one of "those" nights for me. They are coming more often. I cried a bit for no real reason yet for the most part I was ok. I was in a "mood" for the better part of the afternoon/evening to the point where W asked if I was ok. This was while the kids were still up so I didn't need to respond, or didn't want to anyway. I just gave the "yea, I'm fine" standard answer. I wonder if I am doing this to get attention like my 5 year old does? I would hate to think that but I can't explain it many other ways. It could be that I am holding so much in right now but hey, what else is new these days.
What I think is starting to happen is that I am getting more and more frustrated with this status quo and feel increasing pressure to DO something. Problem is that I am not entirely sure that DOING something is appropriate right now. I'm not sure SAYING anything is right either. The fact is that things SEEM to be progressing but at a pace that feels like stillness to me.
I am determined not to be paralyzed by either fear or indecision. Right now BOTH are prevalent in my life and it's causing me to get off track with DBing and life in general. I don't like it and I am working to overcome both. I am making progress but it's slow. I really think this "eye of the storm" period my R has been in has affected me by making me content, or at the very least it has made me afraid of going back to the turmoil and pain of the recent past. Of course, I know being content to live in a similar situation that lead to where we are now is a VERY stupid thing to be, and since I am NOT stupid, I will eventually find a way out of my contentment.
I think above all this, or maybe lurking just below it I don't know which, is my ultimate fear that everything I have bought into, and despite my knowing better, I really have bought into them, the ring, the back rubs, her not going out, the better communication, etc, is one big deception designed to keep me at bay and, well, content.
IF it is all a giant lie, then it has worked pretty well. If it is not a lie, the the truth is not powerful enough yet to overcome my paranoia.
These are trying days but still, I am the judge, prosecutor, defender and jury. Gotta stop living in the courtroom of my mind...
Posting to Mama, I realized that I wanted to post a little more about this struggle I am having with that to say, and whether to, or when to talk to my W.
Last night was the first night in a LONG time where there wasn't really anything going on. No massive cleaning to do, no work for me, no in-laws, no TV, really nothing. So it seemed like it would be the PERFECT time to talk. Too bad it didn't happen.
Strangely enough, the reason seemed not to be fear, but really I could not think of WHAT to say to her. I couldn't think of a way not to sound negative. I couldn't be sure I would say the things I wanted to say, and listen the way I wanted to listen so I just refrained. I don't know how I feel about this lack of convo.
Part of me feels good not to have launched into something that I was not prepared for, and another part of me thinks that I missed a great opportunity. I guess if I had to choose one, it would be the good feeling.
What I want to guard against is waiting just because I don't think I can CONTROL the conversation. I don't think that's why I am waiting but it is a reason I would wait if I was the "old" me. I hope I am waiting because I think the opposite is true and that I seem to only be thinking of things to say that will sound controlling and condescending and I don't want to come off that way.
My C, OT, and others have given me scripts so-to-speak so I really lack for an excuse. I was just in a position last night that I am rarely in...I was at a loss for words, or the right ones anyway.
I need to work on deciding what is MOST important to me to say, then decide on the best way to say it, and have that ready when another opportunity presents itself but NOT go beyond that to try to script out the whole conversation. For me, that would be an accomplishment.
Or hey, maybe I just need to work on overcoming my fears, expressing my feelings in a direct way, when I feel them.
That's pretty much how I feel, too. Not knowing WHAT to say...and not knowing HOW to say it without sounding well...without sounding like any number of adjectives that I can think of...controlling, needy, condescending..so many more I can think of. I want to be able to do it in a way that's open, honest, caring, constructive, and will lead SO to be the same. The thought that I'll completely screw up any TALK stops me in my tracks every time.
I honestly have to wonder if either one of us needs to have this talk yet. I know we're both in completely different places - you seem to be some steps further than me, but what is our "motivation" behind having one of thee talks? Just set our own minds at ease? Why do we need to that? Maybe that's what we should really be thinking about....especially since we both *think" our respective P's will open up when they are ready. I think constantly dwelling on a potential "talk" is somehow stagnating things. DR says not to bring up R talk....our own fear of the "status quo" is what's driving us to have the talk, right?
On a sidenote, I saw in your other post about your library...a suggestion...my library has an "inter-library" loan policy - I can actually search for a book and if one of the other participating libraries has it, they ship it to mine - does yours have anything like that? I can also search online, in the privacy of my own home (great for someone that only checks out self-help books, lol)...I can tell you this has saved me tons of money from potentially buying books that I ended up hating...
Quote: honestly have to wonder if either one of us needs to have this talk yet. I know we're both in completely different places - you seem to be some steps further than me, but what is our "motivation" behind having one of thee talks? Just set our own minds at ease? Why do we need to that?
NM, I wish I thought to put that in my post because it is something I think about all the time and now that you mention it, it's usually the last thought I have right before deciding NOT to talk.
I really think this whole idea of the time not being right is due to me not feeling like my motivation is right. I feel like I am still looking for validation and looking to my W to make me feel all better inside. It's likely she won't do that and even if she COULD, I don't think it's wise to rely on her for that. So, the beat goes on...
I guess, stating from experience, don't have the TALK unless you can be sure of the reasons why you need to talk (the motivation), what your goal is in having an R talk, and whether your spouse is at the point where you'll get more than the "stare off in to space." This is the one area that I have been trying to improve and, I might add, have improved to some degree, but not yet perfect The fact is, if they aren't ready to talk, you'll get nowhere and likely frustrate yourself in the process.
Like you GH, I find myself in that really interesting phase of "stillness"....in some ways, its harder than "crisis" phase because now, we are really left without much direction and our goals are likely less clear.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Ok, I haven't posted anything like this in awhile but my W just called me and among other things she said that tomorrow night her friend (the one she went to stay with the night of the bombs dropping) said she wants to go out to dinner. This is similar to last night when W said that on April 18th she has plans with this woman and another friend. She said she just wanted to give me plenty of notice. Funny since I have never asked for, nor do I particularly need notice. I suppose it is courteous but strange for my W.
My paranoia is that clearly my W has either ditched the OM OR she has decided that going out at night with him and being obvious about it/him was not working in her favor. If I continue down the road of paranoia, I have to wonder if this friend is actively supporting my W in this. I truly have no idea where she stands on it. If I had to guess, I would say it's possible she does support it on some level since I know she's talked to my W about her and her H having problems and maybe not "making it".
I hate that I feel like I am right back to where I was months ago but contrary to that feeling that OM was gone I had the past week or so, I am starting to feel the opposite now.
I know, don't speculate. Well, I guess that means I need to have a talk so that my W can tell me where we stand according to her. I don't think it's doing me, my R, or her any good with me wondering all the time. My motivation is now clear. Truth or no truth, OM or no OM, I want to ask her what is up. I think since my overactive imagination is making all this stuff up anyway, I can handle whatever she tells me and I will be able to then make better decisions.
We'll see how it goes. I'm still not sure what I want to do, but I think I will come up with a positive, non-confrontational way to directly ask her where things stand. How about "Honey, it's been a few months now and I think things are going better between us. I would like to know where things stand, and how you feel about us."
Of course, I would like to talk about the ring, her "working towards us" comment and the OM but I will wait and see where things go.
One thing I know is that I am NOT looking for her to validate me so much as I feel that all this mind reading, positive OR negative is not good. IF (and that's a BIG if) she will be honest with me, I think I can accept what she has to say, good or bad.
This sucks. I am a wreck for the first time in awhile. Damn roller coaster!
GH
P.S. When she was on the phone with me just now she was outside. She said she had to pee, and then, sounding like she was talking away from the phone said "wait, I left my cup on the car." It sounded like she was talking to someone else...someone she meets at the gym maybe...I hate this. I can't believe I am back here again... Slap if you must!
Quote: That's pretty much how I feel, too. Not knowing WHAT to say...and not knowing HOW to say it without sounding well...without sounding like any number of adjectives that I can think of...controlling, needy, condescending..so many more I can think of. I want to be able to do it in a way that's open, honest, caring, constructive, and will lead SO to be the same. The thought that I'll completely screw up any TALK stops me in my tracks every time.
This is where I screwed up as you know from my post. In my quest to fix things I jump in with both feet without thinking. My C had told me to wear a rubberband around my wrist - when I get the urge to talk about our R I need to snap the rubberband and say to myself "If I try to fix it, I will make it worse" (Cognitive therapy).
Quote: but what is our "motivation" behind having one of thee talks? Just set our own minds at ease?
Again, this sounds like more of us controlling the situation. This is not just about us. This is also extremely hard on our spouses as well, but I know I am acting like I am the only one hurting and not considering how my H must be feeling. Like I said in my post, I need to back off as when I do, things are much calmer. My H needs to work out his own problems and issues and I have to let him do that on his own timetable, not mine.
)
The fact is, if they aren't ready to talk, you'll get nowhere and likely frustrate yourself in the process.