I just found this after submitting my megalong post to you. So, a bit of crossposting...
I know what has to be done it's just that with so much positive stuff going on, it makes it all the more difficult to bring the up subjects that will at once bring the A, OM and my W's feelings back to the forefront where they have not been in awhile. I suppose that is a good thing in a lot of ways because it DOES need to be dealt with.
Wow, do you need a shift of perspective here. First -- avoiding these issues is toxic.
Second, and more important, being in a place where you can share your vision of a bright, passionate, strong M with your W should be hopeful and exciting!!! It should be a loving process that you go through together.
You seem to have in your head that you'll be taking on the role of a chastising parent about to put your kid on restriction if you are honest about wanting, even insisting, on a better R for both of you. What are you going to do? Sit her down at the dining room table and tell her you need to have a talk with her while she sits and listens to your lecture with eyes downcast?
My guess is that this is an artifact of you deciding that you alone are in charge of fixing and running the R.
What if you took her on a romantic dinner where you could have some privacy and really talked from the heart about what you want for yourself and for your R? What if you told her about the dreams you have for a life together? What if you asked her about her dreams? What if you shared your pain about OM and sincerely asked for her help in healing? What if you asked her to share her pain with you? That is, what if you took real emotional risk and opened your heart to her in a loving way? There would no doubt be joy and sadness. There would also be a deepening of emotional intimacy and trust. The seed of hope for a bright future in which you to partner together to achieve shared dreams would be planted.
It is not punishing to want a wonderful life with your W. Quit thinking of it as such.
Quote: As you feel more secure and less panicked, you'll get more honest about your own happiness, present and past, your own needs and desires. This is an incredibly painful and sad process to go through.
OT, I really love the way you can break these things down with just the right amout of forcefullness to get it through my thick skull. Thank you so much. Yes, this is a painful and sad process, but also one filled with the joy of discovering somethings about yourself you never knew and that can be very powerful and positive.
Quote:
The problem with this uneven growth becomes very apparent with reconcilliation. The WAS really hasn't gotten anywhere, whereas the LBS has. The couple is no longer matched in terms of emotional maturity or R skills.
I see this now. It's really aparent that my W is mired in self doubt and has NO idea how to make herself happy right now.
Quote: On the one hand, finally getting how bad the M was for oneself and the deep feelings of sadness and hopelessness that come with that can give the LBS more empathy for the WAS. On the other hand, it also presents the challenge of having to choose whether to insist that your new R be the kind of partnership you want or instead going with the flow and most likely becoming a WAS yourself a few years down the road.
Quote: Basically, W has to do the work you did when you were a LBS, and you have to do the work she did when she was a WAS. You are coming out of denial about just how bad things were for you. WAS got how bad things were for her long ago. WAS needs to get how much she was part of the problem. You got how much you were part of the problem long ago.
Yes, yes, yes. I fear this as well. I AM starting to see what was wrong in our M, and NOT just from her perspective, which I was able to grasp early on, but from MY perspective. I always THOUGHT our marriage was great. It wasn't until now, having gone through this and learning to care for myself in ways I never understood before, that I see how I was unhappy, even when smiling every day. I IS a challenge to do what you say and make that demand that things change. This I know.
Quote: I can't imagine that your W wants the old R.
My C said the same thing but I told her this; the old R, or the part that was totally unsatisfactory to my W and in her words, pushed her out, was filled with anger and misery on my part. I just let myself go in terms of making sure I did what I needed to do to be happy, and thus I made everyone around me, kids, W, co-workers, etc, pull back from me. I see this SO clearly now. So, with that negative stuff removed (it truly has been) our previous R SURELY needed work, but my W may, and I stress MAY be ok living with it. I am NOT saying she should be ok with it, just that she could be. I am ok with it as well with some specific modifications which actually makes it different...lol.
Quote: Is she really going to want to voice her discontent with that after you took her back even though she cheated on you? The hopelessness is probably creeping back into her outlook. Even *after* all that has happened, things just remain the same -- nothing will change -- an H who won't stand up for himself, a passionless M, someone she lives with that she resents for being away because when he is there she never gets what she needs from him. I wouldn't be surprised if in her own mind a plan is starting to develop on how to leave after the kids go away to school. I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't started to have vague thoughts about such things yourself. If not, give yourself another 6 months this way and I bet you'll have them.
Wow. No, she likely isn't going to voice her discontent. Good point, and the ideas are probably creeping as we speak. I do need to make a stand, define what I want out of this marriage and make a REAL attempt at moving forward so I DON'T have the same WAS thoughts later on.
A question for you on this. Do I simply, as my C says, state how I feel and what I want, or so I also convey my understanding of what was wrong with our R so she knows I am trying not to make the same mistakes again?
Quote: BTW, it is great that you are recognizing passion as a need of Ws that you aren't meeting. I've mentioned this before, and your reply is that your W knows you want her. It is a huge step from there to where you are now. Congratulations, I'm sure it was painful to get there and it took a lot of strength and courage.
It was painful, and continues to be because I FEEL passionate about her but I don't know how to express that, especially right now when it may not even be appropriate to do so. My work in this area is continuing with my C.
Quote: Oh, and one related thing, if everyday you make an effort to make your W feel special, appreciated, considered, and desired, I expect she will feel less resentful of your time away.
Bring her coffee in bed, thank her for taking care of one of those "little chores" that are a real hassle that you never have to deal with, buy her something that shows you were on her mind (this can be *very* small) or tell her something reminded you of her during the day or you saw something she might like, look at her with open lust in your eyes and an "mmmmmmm."
Funny, I DO ALL those things daily. Mind you, I only started doing it AGAIN recently as things started to look up in my sitch, but it was the lack of these "little" things that was REALLY missing from my M. I know my W appreciates them and I have made sure that not a day goes by where I don't show her my appreciation and love. Of course I would do much more, but in the current state of the R, I feel I do enough. Oh, and she still seems annoyed at the "mmmmmmmm" part, lol.
Yes, yes, yes. I fear this as well. I AM starting to see what was wrong in our M, and NOT just from her perspective, which I was able to grasp early on, but from MY perspective.
Wow, this is very deep and very important to acknowledge — your fear that is.
I remember when I had the fear that if I was honest with myself about my R with XH that I wouldn't want the M anymore. It wasn't even just fear about losing the M, but what it would mean about me and 15+ years of my life. I was afraid of facing the truth because I didn't know if I could live with it or its consequences. What actually happened is partially what I was afraid of — I no longer wanted my old M when I was honest with myself. But, I can live with it and its consequences. Indeed, it gives me strength and courage and definitely compassion. And, my life now is better than I had ever dreamed. So, I'm very glad my fear gave way to honesty.
Besides, the truth will out, no matter what. And, avoiding working through fear never seems to turn out well. So, it is great that you can see the fear so that you can now plough through it.
Thanks OT. Fear, or really the admission of it is something I think I am getting from my IC sessions. I never really thought much about what I was afraid of, but I surely was afraid.
Now I am fighting those fears and as you say, plowing through them. It's hard work and I can't claim I am doing great, but I am making progress and that is something I don't think I can say I have done in my 35 previous years on this planet.
What I fear most right now is the same old thing that I feel played as much a part in killing my marriage as anything; rejection. I fear the ultimate rejection of her leaving me, and the minor daily rejection of her turning away my romantic advances. I fear her rejecting my words when I try to talk to her about all this. The good news is that I have found in DB/DR, through your words, and the words of others here over the past few months, the will to rise above living for what she MAY do or say. That will is enabling me to contemplate doing and saying what I feel, not without compassion, but without fear of her response. I DO care if what I say will hurt her but I am prepared to deal with that pain as a necessary result of this process, just as I consider MY pain necessary to have kick started my growth. What is still holding me back is the fear of MY pain. I should be used to it by now but having a few weeks of relatively pain free living has been nice. I fear my words and actions bringing back the heartache and it's THAT fear I have to overcome if I am going to be able to even get into the ring with the others.
Thank you for the inspiration.
GH
P.S. On NM's thread you said my W had made a commitment to a long lasting R with me, or something like that. I don't know if that's true or not. She is wearing a ring which she started wearing without explanation or fanfare and she said recently while laying on the couch upset "I'm working towards getting back to us, you have to give me that." I don't know if that constitutes a commitment or not. It is one of the great unknowns of my sitch, and one that I need to get answered one way or another.
Lol, well lets say that she is committed to trying. My XH never got to that point, and it takes A LOT for a WA to get to there. Usually, they are wrapped around their guilt and terrified about giving you false hope, so they have to be pretty invested to acknowledge wanting a future with you and to admit to trying...
I think it is easier to be afraid of them leaving than to face the fear that we might want to leave ourselves...
Quote: Oh, and one related thing, if everyday you make an effort to make your W feel special, appreciated, considered, and desired,
GH, this is where I am as well. If you have been following my thread I received a huge hug the other night from my H. Today I initiated one and he hugged me back. I asked him if he wanted to go to my C with me, he said he would consider it! I told him how I felt without being condescending or threatening. I really think time is on our side. As in the story of the tortoise and the hare "slow and steady wins the race."
So sorry OT, didn't see this one...crossposting indeed!
Quote: Wow, do you need a shift of perspective here. First -- avoiding these issues is toxic.
Yes, I agree. I know I don't want to avoid these things for long, and even doing it now is dangerous.
Quote: Second, and more important, being in a place where you can share your vision of a bright, passionate, strong M with your W should be hopeful and exciting!!! It should be a loving process that you go through together.
Very interesting. I hadn't thought of it this way.
Quote: You seem to have in your head that you'll be taking on the role of a chastising parent about to put your kid on restriction if you are honest about wanting, even insisting, on a better R for both of you. What are you going to do? Sit her down at the dining room table and tell her you need to have a talk with her while she sits and listens to your lecture with eyes downcast?
Pretty much yea. I may kid a bit, but really, I thought it may go something like that. You are 100% correct about this stemming from my belief that I was the only one working on this R. I need to stop that, eh? I truly hope when we talk, it will be an open, honest two-way discussion but as I described to my C, my W seems totally against that. It is one reason why I have not brought up the subject with her because I have good reason to believe that she would just shut down again like she did last week (or was that two weeks ago). It was my C that said that in that case, if my W didn't want to talk, then maybe could simply express how I felt and my "vision" as you say. I am glad you painted that picture for me of the parent lecturing a child because I think I was in danger of coming off like that. Ouch. Gotta work on that too.
Quote: What if you took her on a romantic dinner where you could have some privacy and really talked from the heart about what you want for yourself and for your R? What if you told her about the dreams you have for a life together? What if you asked her about her dreams? What if you shared your pain about OM and sincerely asked for her help in healing? What if you asked her to share her pain with you? That is, what if you took real emotional risk and opened your heart to her in a loving way? There would no doubt be joy and sadness. There would also be a deepening of emotional intimacy and trust. The seed of hope for a bright future in which you to partner together to achieve shared dreams would be planted.
I really think this is possible in the near future. It's just so hard because any attempt by me to bring up "us" or the OM or anything about our M is shut down. My C says from what she's heard, that my W is just not a talker, or if she was, my years of defensive and controlling response to her communicating painful things to me killed that part of her. C thinks it may take some more time with me as the "validater" for W to really trust me in that role. Again, another reason to wait, just a little while more. I see W opening up bit by bit.
Quote: It is not punishing to want a wonderful life with your W. Quit thinking of it as such.
What a great statement. Thank you for that. It really puts a new, albeit obvious, spin on things for me.
I guess my two cents worth: There must be a time when she is willing to discuss these things and also recognize her role in re-building a healthy, loving relationship. However, that time may not be right now. I think Michelle talks about this in DR...you can bring the subject up, tell her directly about your wants, needs, fears etc., and if she is willing to talk about it, then great. If not, you need to bide your time and bring it up again when the time seems right. I guess my point is, there is no harm in talking to her about it. Be direct. Be honest, but do not go into with an expecatation that she is going to open up right on the spot.
That's not to say that you should keep "sweeping it under the carpet," in time you will have to determine whether her inability or unwillingness to actively talk about the sitch is something that you can live with.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
That's not to say that you should keep "sweeping it under the carpet," in time you will have to determine whether her inability or unwillingness to actively talk about the sitch is something that you can live with.
Yes, this is something I have to determine. Lately I have been getting impatient with this, however, I DON'T want to start THAT conversation because of impatience, anger or any other negative emotion. I want to start it because I am ready to be honest and think she may be honest with me, the goal being the beginning of a more open communication between us from that point forward.
-----------------
Journaling...and I will apologize in advance for being all over the place. These are confusing times.
Yesterday afternoon saw some down moments for me. Like I said yesterday in my posts, I am exhausted from all this and I suppose my recharging didn't happen soon enough. I started to spiral into anger and anxiety all afternoon. I don't think anyone noticed much. W made a comment later in the evening that I was sighing and such a lot. She asked if everything was ok, but since she was slammed busy with preparations for the kid's Easter stuff at school today, I decided not to get into it then. THAT was not the time. Too much stress and she was tired. Never a good time to talk. So, I said yes, I was fine and moved on. From that point it was fine, or at least mind over matter made it such. I just sucked it up and went on with life. Since there was no real reason I was upset other than my over-active mind, I decided to just let it go. As I will discuss later, I think it is important for me to identify when I upset myself, and when my W upsets me. This time I upset myself.
BTW, this idea of not only choosing my battles (so-to-speak) but choosing the WHEN and WHERE of the battles has been VERY important to my progress in all this. Before I would just start talking about things whenever and wherever, never really noticing that certain times and places seemed to be when we had all our arguments. Now I am much more aware of what is going on and where the "bad places" are to talk to my W. Since I have been more cognizant of this, I have been able to talk to W about things that used to become arguments and they have not escalated. I can't say that's the entire reason, but it really does help not to attempt heavy conversation when W is already stressed and busy when I don't have to. Of course sometimes things just need to be addressed immediately. For all other talk, there is a time and place.
So, after helping a bit with the Easter stuff and watching some TV with my W, I went upstairs and had a good workout then relaxed for awhile before going back down and helping W with the Easter stuff at the end of the night (it took her from 8:00 to past midnight to get it all done). By then I was able to be pleasant but not too much so.
I think what happened earlier in the evening, when my frustration/anger/sadness peaked is that I realized that I needed to detach more (well, I realized this earlier in the day too) and by the end of the night I did. I did not wait up for her to come to bed, nor did I hang around after my part of the Easter prep was done. I would have done these things in the past, and even recently as I was slipping back into the "old" me. I felt better getting back to a somewhat detached, more distant place.
It's really hard right now because even though I said I didn't "feel" the presence of OM anymore, the fact that I suspect she wore his shirt to bed the other night and that things are TOO quiet on that front makes me anxious. I want to talk or act on the idea that things CAN progress with us, but like NM (I think it was her anyway) said, it sucks to think that the WAS are doing things simply to placate us and bide their time until either they make up their minds or whatever is preventing them (guilt, OM's marriage, etc) from going to the OM full time is gone. I don't really think this what my W is doing but then again, I have very little real knowledge of what she is doing anymore. I have lots of speculation. Sounds like it's getting to be time for that conversation.
The other thing that happened, and probably not coincidentally as you all would point out, is that as I withdrew somewhat, my W seemed to warm up a bit. It's hard to judge that when she was occupied all night but it was just the way she seemed cheerful when talking to me and the way she looked at me from time to time. We even had some playful banter when she asked if it was hot in the house or if it was just her. My standard response is "It's you honey, of course. You're always hot" meaning that I THINK she's hot. This time I said "No, it's just ME that's hot and about time you noticed." She laughed and said something to the effect that it was true. When we can have an easy going night like that, after all my internal stress from earlier in the day, it makes me second guess everything I was thinking. It makes me think that indeed, time IS going to allow a lot of the things I THINK I need to talk about to work themselves out. It left me at the end of the night, after I finally did get some decompression time, thinking that I can stand limbo for one more day...and maybe one more after that...
On a philosophical note, what I have been thinking about is this idea that OT keeps throwing out there about us LBS's not having compassion for the WAS and that at some point in our journey we develop that compassion as we begin to understand the negative feelings WE have towards our marriages and spouses but weren't acknowledging as we wallowed in our misery. I am beginning to understand how that works and why it is important. Now that I am TRULY becoming compassionate towards my W about all this, I can see the REAL work that is on the horizon, and that there are decisions I need to make about how and what I want things to be in my M. That doesn't mean I will not be angry, hurt, frustrated, etc. It just means that the final layers of self-pity are falling away and I think I can start to decide what I want, independent of all this pain I have inflicted on myself above and beyond what my W inflicted on me by walking away from our marriage and into the arms of someone else.
I wish I could say that I am really done with this process of wallowing but I cannot. I can only say that I am beginning to see it more clearly than before and am dealing with it better. I am NOT trying to deny feelings I have so long as they are feelings NOT generated by my own mind. I want to decide which of these feelings and thoughts are really something to work out with my W and which are constructs of my own, to be discarded. Once I figure out that, I think it will be time to talk.
The last thing I want to do is start talking and realize half way into it that I am merely spouting my paranoid suspicions and NOT my positive vision for a happy, passionate marriage that we can have in the future. Thank you again OT for that idea that this conversation does NOT have to be negative and my wanting a positive outcome, a great marriage with my W is NOT something I need to feel bad about, especially when relating it to my W.
Quote: I just realize that while he was never afraid to love me fully, I was scared to love him that same way. I didn't want to allow myself to fully trust him and let myself love him because I was afraid to get hurt. How ironic that this very behavior ended up pushing him away.
That is from Superstressed's post about her realization of something she was doing her M.
I found that interesting because it describes my W to a T. I have often wondered if it was just me, and the now obvious intimacy issues I have, or if there was something going on with my W preventing her from expressing her love for me. I now remember, thanks to this post, that my W mentioned a LONG time ago that she feels like she gave everything to a certain ex of hers (the one that cheated on her) and ever since then, she's held back. She admitted to doing that with me but back then, since things were good, I didn't think much of it. Now, it seems to be VERY significant because it may be part of why I feel a lack of affection from her. It also could play a part in other issues in our marriage.
