OT, maybe I mis-spoke. I did not mean to say I had forgiven her, just that I WOULD forgive her should she ask for that. I totally agree with you. She WOULD take it as condescending, martyring, holier-than-thou criticism as you say. She's still in the mode of thinking that I need to win HER back and she needs to forgive ME for what I did or didn't do to help get us to this point. That's fine. I can deal with that for the time being since I am in the process of self examination (and will always be I think).
SO, your concern is well founded and I was already with you on that. My mistake would have been to even mention forgiveness at all, then having to explain it as I just did to you. Thanks for the heads up. I will heed that advice.
As for me being ready to take the emotional risk right now, I am still trying to figure that out, which means I am not ready. I may be by tomorrow, or the next day, or next week. We'll see. I am just trying to make sure I really know what I want to say first, not so much to elicit certain responses from her, but to make sure I don't have to do this again and again just to make my point. I want to talk and listen and have it be productive. Sounds simple, but we all know it's far from it.
I did not mean to say I had forgiven her, just that I WOULD forgive her should she ask for that.
GH... hmmm... read that line again honey... you know very well that forgiveness is something that comes from within ourselves, not just because someone asks us to. Now, I KNOW you know that... you will forgive her on your own time schedule not because she will ever ask you to. To completely free yourself emotionally, you will have to forgive... doesn't mean forget. That is a completely different subject. Few people can truly forget, especially in painful sitches like this. But forgiveness is something completely different. You find forgiveness within your heart and soul for someone. It may be come as easy as tomorrow or it may take years... the trouble with forgiveness, if you do not truly forgive anyone for their actions, the pain will continue on... within both individuals. I've seen it time and time again... someone is hurting, the other person has done all they can to try and make it up to the person they hurt... but the hurt person can't forgive they spend all their time making the guilty party even guiltier as if they can never repay the pain and hurt they caused... everything that happens to the guilty party is justified, well-deserved, karma, whatever you want to call it. So who wins... no one... neither party is completely set free... and babe you've got to set yourself free in order for you both to heal from this. You have to decide if you can forgive and work on the forgiveness for her to be able to give and love again without feeling as though their will be reprecutions to her.
Great post -- forgiveness is so important. Lol, that's why I was so careful to caution GH about *telling* his W he forgives her, rather than forgiving her. The sooner he can find forgiveness the better for him (and them).
Thank you. I truly believe that forgiveness is the key to peace of mind, setting one's self from from the rollercoaster and being able to move forward in one's life... whether with the WAS or alone. Without forgiveness you have the resentment, anger, bitterness, frustration and all the other unhealthy emotions. When you forgive, your heart can open again... whether to the WAS or perhaps someone else. Without forgiveness there can be no self-love and without self-love it's impossible to love or be loved as we all so richly deserved... so let it go, let it go, let it go...
I think everyone agrees that both parties need to forgive each other. One of the things that counselors sometimes do is to have each spouse write a letter to the other expressing sorrow for the things they have done to hurt the other in the marriage. A follow up to that is to have each spouse write a letter specifically forgiving the other.
Doing this in writing is so much more effective than speaking it because it forces you to choose your words more carefully, and because it provides a written record that can give lasting comfort.
I don't necessarily think this will work for you, GH, but I read it in some marriage book recently and thought it was generally a good idea.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Ok, ok...geez. That's what I get for stream of consciousness posting...lol.
ANYWAY, yes, ladies, I suppose I know those things and somehow my brain is shorting out. Either that or I was honest then and am trying to spin it now.
For all I know, I have already forgiven her. I would only TELL her that if she asked, but her asking is not why I would forgive her. Make sense? I feel like I have forgiven her for what she is doing, if it's possible to fogrive someome for something in the present that is. I understand it, and while I don't condone it, nor will I support it, I CAN get past it and see to what there is of our lives to move on with. The day WILL come when this is all over and I will have to look deep inside my heart and make sure I have truly forgiven her. That time is not here yet.
I think forgiveness has as much to do with acceptance of OUR OWN faults as it does theirs. It is the ultimate empathy. It is the only way we know how to say I hate what you did but I don't hate who you are in a way that conveys enough weight and emotional power to heal. Of this I am sure; I hate what my wife is doing but I do not hate her. Some people may never understand that concept. I hope I truly do.
So, thanks for the flurry of posts (wow, people DO read this stuff...lol) and from all this I really know I am NOT ready for this talk if only because I can't get my thoughts straight here, when I can edit them until they're the way I want them, let alone in a conversation with my W when things may get emotional.
W and I just got done watching History of Violence. Pretty good movie. It was really strange. For the first time in a LONG time I got emotional for no real reason at all. I guess it was sitting there on the couch with W, on opposite ends, just watching the movie. It made me miss the times when we would snuggle to do that, and also it made me get a vision of what her and the OM probably do/did. Remember the stack of DVD's I found in her car...
It passed. I am fine now. It was just totally unexpected for me to get that way these days after being so strong. I guess limbo can really get to you if you're not careful.
Oh, and no decision on the R talk yet. Not tonight for sure. Not after that little episode.
BTW, she had no idea I got upset. It was dark...
EDITED IN----
I was just thinking about what happened and it dawned on me why I got upset. It wasn't really missing anything, or the vision, it was worse. I realized that our life is now back to normal...and I hate it! I don't want a passionless marriage where we pass in the hall, live in seperate rooms and maybe, if I'm lucky, have $ex once a month. I DON'T WANT THAT ANYMORE and I realize now that once again, that's what I have. It's what I have been afraid of since this began. I have been afraid that my W would just try to go back to what was. Maybe I really need to have that talk soon. If this continues, I have no choice because this can't be how our NEW marriage goes.
GH You know I am sort of loathe to give advice since my R is such a disaster of backslide-dom, but here goes anyway: I think you should talk with W about R. It is time. I know it doesn't seem very DB - but that's becuase of the A - other DBers who don't have this issue talk about thier R's all the time - just carefully. You've got to be very careful. I have had some R talk successes in the past - and the key is the same discipline we use regarding the A. Namely - set some boundaries for yourself. Practice a way of de-escalating the talk if you find either of you getting too emotional. In fact, try the conversation on for size in front of the mirror. Sadly, we KNOW exactly what they will say to most things, so this roll playing isn't too hard. Finally, if you feel its going badly, have a "main idea" sentence in mind for if you have to end the convo quickly. And have the courage to just leave some things out there undiscussed. This is very hard for me, but you seem to do okay with uncertainty so I know you can do it. Use lots of "I" statements, don't tell her how you think she feels, and don't let her put things on you either. If she does say how she feels, try to reflect it back to her so she feels heard. Maybe, she will take your cue and do the same for you. Also, I think that since intimacy is an issue, you need to leave it out of this convo so she doesn't think you're talking with her in order to get some. (BTW, I agree with the other women on this list who have said to get some eggs and just initiate for crying out loud. Tentativeness isn't sexy. Talking about tentativeness isn't sexy. Getting hit on in a whole new way by somebody willing to take a risk is sexy. Listen to the women, GH. We know. Remember in high school when you made out just for the sake of making out and there was no ML goal in sight? Rememeber how excellent that was? Try that.) Have you thought about telling her how you felt last night as a point of discussion? i.e. you love her and miss her and don't want to have your old marriage. Furthermore, what would she want in new marriage? Anyway, just my two cents. You are getting good at detaching, but talking with her is new. You might not be good at it the first time. That's okay. Go easy. good luck Erin
Thanks for the advice and you shouldn't feel bad about giving it. Often we are great at giving advice when we can't seem to follow the same advice ourselves. It doesn't mean it's bad advice. Anyway, yea, I will talk to her. I think that is a forgone conclusion but it's WHEN I do it that is still in doubt. As for knowing what they will say to most things, I think that's where we make a BIG mistake. I THINK I know what she will say to most things, but often I am wrong, or if she does respond in a certain way, it's often because I ask the question a certain way, NOT because she really feels that way.
As for the intimacy issue, yea, I know, tenativness is not sexy, but then again, neither is a woman who recoils at the slightest attempt at physical affection. Until we get to the root of that, I have NO chance to take a risk. Even if she didn't do that, it would be big for me to initiate things.
Here's the thing, I was NOT always like this. I WAS affectionate and DID go out of my way to be romantic and "initiate" things but when you are with someone who NEVER, and I really do mean NEVER initiates those kinds of things, you start to feel less like doing them yourself. Things start to feel one-sided. Sure, we talked about that and she always said it was because she just felt like it was the man's job to do that. Ok...
So, I've been over all that here before, but it really is to the point now where EVERYTHING else in our life is "normal" or better. We are getting along GREAT, having more fun and light-hearted convos, parenting better, doing more things as a family, watching movies together (not done much of that in awhile) and, well, just living together better than ever. Add to that my new look, LOTS of comments from women in my life, including my W's best friend about how great I look and that I'm "hot", and you get total confusion about why my W would still be resistant to me. To me it's either that she needs more time to believe in my changes or the OM is still alive and well, preventing her from doing certain things with me. Hell, it could be guilt, I don't know, but the message is VERY clear to me, and it's not my old insecurity at work here, this is different. It's beyond a vibe.
Anyway, like I keep saying, I am willing to give that time. It may be sorted out by a conversation, maybe not. What you can count on is that I will NOT be tenative when she is ANY less resistant. I fully realize that I have been guilty of being passive at the best and a total turn off at the worst. I can't claim to know just how to turn that around, but I know what NOT to do and I will start by keeping that in mind. Whatever I think is the best thing to do, I will do the opposite...lol.
This is a real problem for me/us, and I feel maybe the biggest one of our marriage. I am not going to approach it lightly, but I am also not going to put it off indefinetly.
GH, I don't think there's a need to rush. I think you are doing the right thing by waiting for the right time. You've made such progress, and your sitch is continuing to improve, so there's no need to force anything.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
