how do you deal with this?

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Always, Thanks so much for this great and timely advice. I am clear that I need to concentrate on my own growth and baby steps, and I really like the idea of writing those down, instead of focusing mostly on H's baby steps. He's moving how he's moving, what ever that looks like. Sometimes it seems slow, sometimes I don't trust it, sometimes it's pleasant, but too much attention over there doesn't change anything anyway But I have to live with me no matter what!

The thing I am struggling with lately, is: I don't want my H if he is not trustworthy and honest. He certainly isn't being fully honest right now. So my original goal was to preserve my marriage and to provide an opportunity to reconcile with my H. But having an honest relationship is much more important to me than staying married to my H. Since H lied to me, and is still lying/withholding, how will I ever trust him fully again? I can only imagine doing so, if he has an epiphany at some point, and claims temporary insanity for this whole thing. Based on his current behavior, I believe he is back to being underground, "looking good" for others (and me especially) based on what he thinks I want to see. (He hasn't mentioned one word about OW since he returned from his visit to her. It's weird to find myself feeling like there's something wrong with that, but I know it's not as good as him beinging open with me). In a sense, my DBing has been a little like that too, when you "act as if" and are all cheery and upbeat before you feel like it, when you really feel like screaming or crying. But that is OK, DBing is about managing emotions in a new way and becoming a better person. My issue with H and honesty is actually not emotional for me - this is me just wanting facts and information to be real and reliable. I am getting to the point where I just want to be real with him, like I am with everyone else, and say what's so, say what I see, how I feel, etc. and get that back. We had a wonderfully intimate relationship at one time, and I never thought that he would ever lie. But more, I never thought he would continue to lie once he realized he had been lying and told the truth. But he's just carrying on with it. I would never tolerate H's dishonesty and deception coming from anyone else in my life. Don't I have a responsibility then, to be what it is that I want to see in the world? I questioned in an earlier post, when is it appropriate to have a conversation about honesty and integrity with our WAS? I sure could use some input on this. At this point, it seems I either have to pull way back from contact with my H altogether, or come to an understanding with him about this and the consequences of his dishonesty in relation to me. I just can't see continuing to ignore it, as it doesn't fit my values for the people I want in my life. I am compassionate, and would be so happy if H wanted to tell me what he needs, even if it is very painful, and perhaps H is in MLC too so I am trying to be very patient and let him come to his own realizations on his own time and share when he is ready. Nonetheless, it seems like he went the other way in this regard after the last trip to OW, and I feel like DBing principles are just telling me to sit tight and not rock the boat. I live in a way that requires that the truth be told. I need to trust the people in my life or I need to move them out. And to pull away without any conversation/explanation seems really manipulative or at least dishonest about my part. (I know that he's lying but I don't think he realizes that I know, although it's possible that he is not present to his own lies. But mostly, I think he thinks I am really trusting and niaive, so he "doesn't want to hurt me". I don't think he realizes how bored I am with all that) I would love some replies on this honesty issue and how to manage it in the face of an A. It is becoming a bottom line concern for me as it's beginning to feel a little creepy (too many suspicions without enough real information). I don't want to live that way. Is the only answer detaching? Or is it appropriate to have a calm, gentle, honest conversation abut what's working and not working for me? Is it too soon? I always prefer the direct approach. But if this is counter to any possibility for reconcilliation because it is too soon, then I suppose I can exit for some time until if/when H asks. Please, some thoughts from you all here?

I went onto H's computer last night to remove all of my DBing threads from the history. I didn't realize that H could possibly identify my posts and now I will not use his computer for these activities again, only my own. I believe I have successfully deleted everything I did from the history and trashed the trash too. BUT, in the course of doing this, I discovered H had added more recent communications from OW to his clandestine document, as recently as last Sunday when he was here for the day with me and "working" in the office. Also, right after he came back from trip to OW, there was access to web site about "Live in Victoria, Australia" and web sites on international investing. He also apparently ordered a male sexual enhancement herbal remedy that week (LOL poor fellow). I suppose he could have just been in fantasy land on the computer the week after he got back. But I just got a little worried that the withholding and dishonesty, looking all calm helpful and kind on the surface, might be the cover up for a big plot. Am I paranoid? I feel like I want to tell him that if he wants to run off to Australia I'll buy him a ticket. I know everyone says snooping is not good, but I feel like I am just getting a periodic reality check when I stumble into this stuff. I don't want to be taken by surprise. But I would much rather that it came from him directly. Any thoughts on that?

[RBinBR]

PL, personally, I think you answered your own questions in the last paragraph. His A with OW is not over. Until it is, he's not really ready to work on his R with you. I know that it is so hard to be patient, but I don't think this is the right time for an R talk about your future and honesty in your R.

[grasshopper]

PL,

You have to make up your own mind about what is most important to you. I suspect the truth is that while you say honesty and trust are most important (and I believe you that it is), it is closer to the truth to say that you are frustrated beyond reason at the sitch and WANT to have trust and honesty as much as NEED THEM. Does that make sense?

What I mean is that you are losing patience and I think it is possibly making certain things seem more important than they might otherwise be. I KNOW trust and honesty are important to you but you knew going into this that those were things, along with physical affection, romance and emotional support, that you would NOT get from H until this was over.

I think what you are saying is perfectly fine so long as it's born of true introspection and inspection of your values, after which, you came to the determination that these things being present RIGHT now (trust & honesty) are more important than you marriage in the long term.

My point is that this situation, for better or worse, is temporary. He may leave tomorrow for OW and then it's all moot. He may come back to you, begging forgiveness and then you have a lot to consider, or he may continue to do THIS for the foreseeable future. It's all up to you how long you want to allow this situation to go on.

The last thing I can say, is that yes, detachment IS the only answer and I don't agree that it's dishonest or anything of the sort. What you are saying when you detach is that "I love you but I am not going to allow my emotions or actions to be dictated by YOUR emotions or actions. I still care but I no longer will be affected by you. I will no longer react to you."

In effect, you are cutting the need for trust of him out because he is not someone you are depending on, nor should you be in the sitch you are in. His honesty and trustworthiness are irrelevant because while you would like them to be part of your relationship with him, you accept, and FULLY accept that they are not going to be for the time being. When he decides what he is doing in his life and should that decision include trying to rebuild a M with you, THEN maybe it's time to visit the issues of trust and honesty.

Sorry to ramble and repeat. I think I got it out the way I meant. If not, please ask me to clarify.

GH

[RBinBR]

Good stuff, GH.

PL, let me expand on the honesty issue a little. I think it's impossible for most of our WAS's to be honest because their very lives are dishonest at this point. They are betraying us in the most fundamental way possible and breaking their marriage vows to be faithful to us. All of their actions are proving that their word is meaningless.

As such, I don't think you see many honest cheaters. I think expecting your H to be honest while conducting his A is unrealistic and unlikely.

[grasshopper]

RB, (not to speak for you PL but...) I don't think she's expecting him to be honest while in the affair, she's just thinking that she's not willing to suffer the dishonesty for any length of time because having a dishonest person in her life violates her basic boundaries. I think she KNOWS he is going to continue to be dishonest for the duration and is unsure if she is ok with that.

GH

[always_14]

WOW--GH, you're amazing. Everything was said wonderfully....can I implore you to drop by my thread for advice (in Piecing)??!! OK, shameless plea over.

PL...everything GH said is right. Yes, your H was once a very trustworthy man, So was mine. I am hurt by the dishonesty and level of it. BUT, when I'm not in a fit of anger as I am these days, here's how I look at it:

In our M, sure, there were things that BOTH of us did. BUT, my actions were really bad: controlling, emotionally toiling, carried a fight forever, threw things from long ago at him, had to be right, demanding, never happy, always argued, subtle put-downs, etc. H was patient, then withdrew, when we moved he tried again, changed the things about him that I had issues with (anger, depression, etc), but I didn't notice, I just kept on. He approached me a few times, but I bit his head off, defended myself and argued. I calmed down a bit, but I was still that way. Then the bombs dropped from his end and I changed. Really, i didn't change until I found out about OW.

SO...was I always this horrible W? No. Not what H knew when we were engaged (or he certainly wouldn't have married me!). I changed. Looking back, I feel I was in a dream, a fog of sorts. He tried to approach me, let me know he couldn't live with someone like that anymore, it didn't jive with his vision and values of a partner and M. He had standards, I didn't see them or cooperate.

The point is, I CHANGED WHEN IT WAS RIGHT FOR ME. Sure, I made efforts to change when he dropped the whole "i can't live like this anymore..." But I REALLY changed, lifted out of the fog and woke up from the dream when OW came into the picture. I saw who I became, how I wasn't that person before, and I wanted to get BACK to the person I WAS again. I wanted to cut loose from the anger, demands, insecurity, fear and all else that made me act the way I did. H tried, he waited, he was kind, he worked with it and then he just gave up. He walked out in ways, but not with a D.

So, the point is....that was MY fog, my falling off the wagon. Now, I hope that H can forgive me for some awful things during that time. So, likewise, it applies that I should understand that this is a time when H is a fog, in a dream. He even said it the other day, like he was getting up from a dream, wanted to live with honor again. The question is, can I wait until he gets out? can I forgive him for actions in the fog? I think I can. Can I trust that he'll come out? I think I do. Is this who he was before, the liar, cheater, etc? No. Was I the bitchy, mean, controlling woman before? No. We both got lost, and waited the other person out...painfully, but we are.

I get frustrated when H doesn't see the changes in me for a while, months. But, I remember how hard it is to change your perception of someone when it's done in subtle ways...I didn't notice the changes in him for 1 year after we moved....he made lots of changes, but I still treated him as if he were the old person. That's what he's doing now. So, i have to understand that.

My H is lifting out, I think. He is coming to terms with what he did, how it affects me, acknowledging living with "honor" in his life, feeling like he was "off track" and in a fog, that he forgot the good parts of me in his mind and ran away from me...not TO OW, but just AWAY from me.

I know you want honesty and trust in a R. So do I and all the people here. We get impatient from time to time. But, realize, it's meaningless to demand these things when the other person is still in the fog, not ready to give that. Ask yourself that question when they're out and ready to push forward with you. Yes, THEN, you SHOULD work on everything you WANT/NEED from a M, a healthy, strong, beautiful one....TOGETHER....not demanded by you when the other is not ready.

GH is right...think about it. Are these things important for you NOW, or can you wait when the time is right? Do you want to start building a R with someone who is only 1/2 there?

The way I figure...this is a 2-part process, for both people. For the LBS, the bomb phase comes with this intense introspection and change and then working on the R..the WAS lifts out of their phase, does the same introspection thing and then comes back to the R. That's Phase 1. Phase 2 is when, I think, we both look at each other and see ourselves for what we are NOW, and really evaluate if this is who we want forever. Are the changes real, have my needs/wants changed, can we work on this together or has too much happened?

Everytime I ask, how much longer can I take this? When will this become so toxic that it's better to cut loose? I have no idea. I trust that I will be shown the path when it comes. Until then...I remember how H asks me now, "why did it take you so long to change and come around? why did you do what you did? why did you not see these things before when I asked and TRIEd to communicate?" Good point. right back at ya, or me.

Take a breather. You're getting panicked over something you have no reason to think of now. Put it in your pocket, your wants and needs in a good R. You're not there yet, you will be, but not yet. It's amazing what happens when you wait, it's like it falls into your lap. Your H was a great guy before with good M values, etc....trust that he'll find that again.

[always_14]

P.S. to GH--GREAT take on detachment. Thank you for the reminders! I needed that.

[deezee]

Grasshopper - However good you may be at your profession, I think you missed your calling. You might have a cult forming around you soon! But hold the Kool-Aid, Reverend Jim - there's hope for us all yet - with or without the S!

Keep up the good advice - we love you here, man!

[PositivelyListening]

Hi GH, Thank you so much for this fantastic post. You are right

What I mean is that you are losing patience and I think it is possibly making certain things seem more important than they might otherwise be. I KNOW trust and honesty are important to you but you knew going into this that those were things, along with physical affection, romance and emotional support, that you would NOT get from H until this was over.

I claim periodic amnesia from the reality that I will not get my needs met right now Thank goodness I have you around to remind me what I signed up for. I do remember. I think I just want to forget sometimes when it gets hard

I think I regularly forget also that I am not in a R with him. He looks like my H, sounds like my H, but just doesn't act like my H in a lot of ways. It REALLY reminds me of when I was caring for my mom who had Alzheimer's. It looked like her, and every once in a while I would see glimpses. The good thing about my H is there is hope it COULD get better. It is possible that one day he will remember me again, or even more likely, rmember himself again. You are so right, GH, I am just being impatient. I wish the time was now.

The last thing I can say, is that yes, detachment IS the only answer and I don't agree that it's dishonest or anything of the sort. What you are saying when you detach is that "I love you but I am not going to allow my emotions or actions to be dictated by YOUR emotions or actions. I still care but I no longer will be affected by you. I will no longer react to you."

Thanks for saying this. I forget that just because I am not being big with my anger or my tears, that I am still atached in that I am letting my H's way of being affect me. This is my work. Since I am seeing him tonight, for a hotel stay, it is SUPER important that I got this message today. Thanks again. This piece, I will try my best to fry into my brain, which is the answer to my question about when:

When he decides what he is doing in his life and should that decision include trying to rebuild a M with you, THEN maybe it's time to visit the issues of trust and honesty.

I better get busy! I have some more DBing to do between now and then. GH, thanks more than I can say. I will be here with you again especially if the amnesia returns

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB, This is food for thought. I think because I do not think of my H as a liar or a cheater, that I just can't fathom how he could be lying or cheating, even for a minute. But the marriage vows part really hooks me every time. It seems like he does not remember that he is married, or that he made any vows, or what they were. This is one of the areas where I lose a lot of hope. For some reason, with my H, and his free-spirited independent vagabond side of his personality, I see him able to justify waffling out of his M to me like it isn't real or important, it just "changed" like the wind. Wandering away could be a typical choice - it's really up for grabs which way he will go - serial relationships and a travelling man lifestyle, or stabilizing and committing to a future. This is a place where my belief in our R is very "iffy". I am not sure he ever understood commitment the way I understand it. I think he wanted to. But I don't think he has an understanding of it the way I would need him to, (and surely doesn't exhibit that right now, although he valiantly tried when we decided to marry) and I am "iffy" about whether he ever will be able to. This worries me.

All of their actions are proving that their word is meaningless.

This part does give me hope somehow, though. It was a big conversation in our R, about keeping our word. It was a big part of personal development training for our early M, and a big complaint of mine during the past 1 1/2 years. He slowly began to ignore the importance of keeping his word, and the more I brought it up, the more underground he went. It was about promises to do things in the beginning, but obviously this eroded all the way culminating in the A. He and I both began to feel like I was his mother. That is not healthy, but no wonder we are where we are. So this is another reason, again, that he needs to find the importance of keeping his word, for himself. Me reminding him will NOT help.

So where am I - at the importance of keeping my word, and living a life that I will feel good about, with integrity and honor, and patience and compassion. Here again.

Thanks, RB