how do you deal with this?

[PositivelyListening]

Hello GH, RB and all,

I am now back home, after a wonderful time away which rejuvenated me, body and soul. Along with great days and evenings with my friends and relations, the visit to the Sho Tai practioner was really helpful, and she did give me a different supplement for my H (without me telling her what was up with us!) based on her reading of him through me. They are an herbal supplement called "Masculine" which is supposed to assist in leveling out hormonal imbalance and depression for men. So you said:

Good luck with the MLC supplements, LOL. Somebody could make a lot of money marketing those.

Since she recommended a three month regime of those for him (replacing another supplement temporarily), I will let you know in three months if we should invest in stock.

On a more developmental note, I have 3 interesting events/occurrences to report from my trip and return yesterday, with some brewing emotions about those which I could use some help in sorting out, so I can proceed with confidence. I'd appreciate your input. I know sometimes I write a lot (probably because I wait too long between postings!). Hopefully you will find some gold for yourself as a reader too.

First vignette: While I was away, my H got angry with me and called me on the phone. As scary as it feels when he gets angry with me, I also feel this is good progress for our R since one of our major problems from our marriage is that he did not tell me what he wanted or needed, or what did or did not work for him. Apparently, his brother (who lives in Canada) called him several times, wanting to know what the h*** was going on with us (and with my H), and then this was followed up by a worried call to my H from his mother in Germany who had become concerned after talking to my SIL. H was pissed and wanted to know what I had been saying to them, now everyone was trying to get their noses in it, etc. etc., and he said this was between him and me, and he didn't want all of this. Well, fortunately, this was in the morning prior to me visiting his B and SIL and my nieces, so I had said almost nothing to them about us. I explained to him that I had spoken to my SIL on Easter and had only said that I missed my H, and when she asked if I had spoken with him that day, I said no, that he was planning to work all day, and that he hasn't really been talking to me much. [I know I seemed sad on that call.] I apologized for the fact that I might have generated alarm, as I told him that perhaps saying that was enough to create worry for them, since I was his wife. That seemed to reassure him, he said, "Well I guess maybe we should talk more, when you get back let's do that" and I said "I would really like that, that would be great." This call from him was lucky timing for me I feel, as it made it crystal clear for me that involving his family with any details will not help our situation, and that his privacy in sorting his A and our R out is paramount to him. I spent the night at his brother and SIL's house, and was greeted warmly by all. We had a blast - dinner, sunset bike-riding, cruising around in their new car, late night dessert out, visiting their new business. SIL wanted to talk in the evening after nieces were in bed, and mostly she talked. She told me that when there are difficulties in a M, that there is not much that others can do. [So true!] She told me that they have been married 15 years, and that it is not always easy, and that she feels much of the work of the marriage is up to her - that the wife must take on more than her share to maintain the marriage. Then, she then told me about her three brothers who are divorced. One was a "bad" marriage that ended in less than 1 year (W left), but the other 2 were married for 15 to 20 years and in both cases their wives were WAS. She went into great detail about the sadness and tragedy of this for the children, and for her brothers. She had me close to tears, as these stories were each heartbreaking to me in their own way. Although I would have felt short term relief by defending myself against the subtle implication that I might be like these former wives, I restrained myself. At the very end of her talk with me, I only said, "I want you to know that I am doing everything I know how to do, to support the continuation of our marriage. I am committed to H, and what I am hoping and praying for is that H will come home." BIL came in at that moment, so that was the end of that conversation. Upon departure, she only said to take care of myself and she wished me good luck with everything at home. I asked her to think good thoughts and pray for us. It was a very warm reception from all of them, which was comforting for me, as I was quite afraid before my visit that it might be a "goodbye visit" of sorts - that I would be crowned the outsider on this visit. I had the distinct impression that they are supportive of our marriage continuing and based on the conversation and the small bits of information they now have, they will not interfere. They still have no knowledge of the A.

Second vignette: I arrived home late afternoon yesterday. H had not been sure all week if he could pick me up at the airport. He spent a good part of the week at my D's house 3 hours away, as we have some modifications that were made before we bought the house but we are stuck with correcting, which need to be completed for the city planner's office before the sale of that house is complete. H decided to drive up to meet me at the airport and have dinner with me, even though he was going to return early this morning to D's house to continue the work (3 hrs each way). He had excuses that he could drop off the dog with me, pick up clothes and supplies, etc., but I feel this was a significantly generous gesture on his part to come to get me when I could have taken a taxi and he could have returned on Sunday. He greeted me with a warm kiss at the airport, and at dinner he told me he was "glad I was home". I updated him on my trip, listened to his stories of the week, and there was hand holding and hugging throughout the evening. He remarked that he had planned to get flowers for me, but ran out of time. H seemed embarrassed when I told him that his thought to do that was as touching to me as if he had gotten them; so H claimed his mother told him he should get flowers - then recanted and said that wasn't true, that he had thought of it himself and had wanted to get them for me but just didn't get to it in time. Although he wasn't spending the night again due to his early planned departure (back to his rented room to gather clean clothes, and supplies from his shop; both room and shop are 1/2 hour closer to D's house than me) he gave me a very prolonged hug when he left, and for the first time in 8 months I felt sexual body energy between us which was really quite pleasant and lingering and generated some electricity/heat. He then stepped away and said, "Call me. Or I'll call you!". I said "both those things" and smiled flirtatiously and he lingered for another moment before exiting. It felt a lot like we are dating again.

Third vignette: I had a phone conversation with D this morning (before H's arrival at her house). D says she had a "talk" with H while I was away. She had been planning to do this, as she has been uncomfortable about his "dual life" and has had mostly superficial conversations with him since the A was revealed, so has been struggling with the superficiality. The upshot of what I got from her story: D says H is still on the fence - deciding what to do about our M - has not decided yet. He had a "good visit" in Germany with the OW. However, H is clear that OW will not be leaving her H and family. H was surprised to discover that his "emotional needs" were not being met in our M, was not aware of that until he met OW and began A without planning and found out his emotional needs were being met there. So this has thrown him. H thinks I will always be the way I am, has no awareness that I have changed or can change. D told H that he will not be able to live "dual life" forever and at some point will have to choose, and he agreed. D told him that discussions of plans for our future (buying new house to remodel etc.) don't make sense if he's not committed to future of M. D also told him that OW is not planning to leave her H amd family, but that we want him in our family. And she capped it off by saying she loves him.

OK, here's my reactions to the past week, and these stories. I had a great week away. I came back refreshed and alive, and saw a glimpse of my life without H which is not so bad, even though I miss him, it gets better each day. The more time I spend without H, the easier it is to picture a life that works without him in it. It is emotionally calmer and easier without him around right now for sure, as there are so many ups and downs and the OW is still a factor which really doesn't work for me. If our M ended, I would experience financial losses and hardships (his business and income are getting better and better all the time), and I would not have the unbelievable craftsman skills that have improved our home and brought tremendous joy to me, and made the idea of remodeling houses for income a really exciting possibility for us to share. So, for financial reasons and our future, I really would much rather have my H in my life than not - it is a mutually beneficial arrrangement that neither of us can manage as well on our own. I feel I would know a lot more about the possibilities for us emotionally if OW was not in the picture. I have realized through reading and deep personal introspection that neither of us were getting our emotional needs fully met in the last year or so of our M prior to the A and that's what let the A in. I would only be interested in continuing our M if we do the deep work necessary so that both of us have our emotional needs as well as financial needs met for the long term. In addition, H is not committed to M right now, and I have no indication yet that he is planning to end the A, despite the fact that it appears to have no future. I believe as he stated to D, that he is on the fence. This is an improvement from when he was planning to be a WAS at time of the bomb. It has been 3 1/2 months since the bomb (A revealed and ILYBINILY convo). I have a great life, and each day that I make plans without him, it is harder to picture how we could come back together and have it work. The circumstances of our M (how we live, how we communicate, how we spend our time, how we set our priorities) would have to change so dramatically for our life together to actually thrive and be healthy. Of course, right now, every time I am with him, it is a lot of work to stay positive and DB each time. I do my best to get my emotional needs met elsewhere and in other ways, but I am concerned I will "run out of gas" since there are only little bits from him to work with. It is tiring, draining, to be so thoughtful of every action I make, every thing I say, and to be so analytical of everything that is transpiring so that I can figure out what to do or say at that next short encounter. We have so little time together, and my life is moving. He is still giving the emotional attention that I want to another. I have concerns that I could come through for him emotionally (I would do everything in my power to achieve that) if we recommitted, but I'm not sure that he will come through for me even if he drops the OW. I am not sure that he will make the effort. I am not sure about my SIL's statement, that it is up to me to do more than my share. I know that is what I have signed up for right now as a DBer, but I would need reassurance that he was interested and committed to meeting my emotional needs, not just coming back because I love him and have stayed committed, when the A with OW dies or ends. Would I even be able to tell if he had it in him, as long as he is still in the throes of the A? Also, the fact that he is talking to D but has not managed to say any of these things about his feelings to me is still a worry. Perhaps he is practicing on her (she is a lot like me) but it is triangulating, not straight. I'd sure like him to tell me. But our R has been superficial for months - right? Part of DBing is not to get too heavy, not to bring up OW, to just be happy and fun to be around. How are we ever to get an acurate read on our R when we have no idea how the other person is really feeling? Or is that just old thinking - do we really already know everything we need to know without ever talking about it? That's confusing.

So, here it is: I am wanting to have a R talk. I wanted to say at least, that I have a request - that if he has a complaint about me that he bring it to me, not others (such as OW or D). On the phone, H said he wanted this to be handled "between us", so I'd like him to create that instead of just expect it from me. Is that OK? I want him to share his feelings about me directly with me. Even his anger, his disappointment, his resignation. He has never told me anything about what he has discovered about his emotional needs and what was not being met in our R. I'd like to hear that. Should I wait until he brings it up and continue to be patient? I am also frustrated that he can not see any changes in me, but of course how could he see much when we see each other so little. Damn it though, I have been working so hard! Is this just a case where I need to be patient longer? Is there anything else I should be doing right now to move things along? It seems like we have been making progress, if baby steps are what to look for. Chuck, the DB coach said I was doing fine. God, it's so slow!!! Is it appropriate to see the signs I have been seeing (treating me to dinner, the kisses, hugs and sexual energy, spending the night once, the I missed you/glad you're back statements, the idea of flowers, etc.) as positive steps in my direction, or is it just appeasements (because he thinks that's what I would want) or is it so he has proof that I'm not as stimulating or fulfilling as OW? Do any of you see continuing hope for us here? I need to know if I am being a hopeful fool or if objective DB people out there can see reasons for me to continue to be hopeful. In these stories, is there DB progress from your vantage point? Because I know most people in the "real" world would be telling me to give it up already.

[Erin]

Welcome home PL! Seems so much has happened. I'm a bit scattered these days, and self absorbed with my own agony in a way I hate, but wanted to respond in some small way to your post.
First, I'm so glad and proud and uplifted to hear about your trip being so positive. I am scared to dip my toes in those waters of friends and family for fear I won't be able to fake it when necessary. It seems like you walked a tricky line - open with those who are supportive, and steady with those you are unsure of. Well done.
Now:
She told me that they have been married 15 years, and that it is not always easy, and that she feels much of the work of the marriage is up to her - that the wife must take on more than her share to maintain the marriage
My own mother is horrible at giving advice on anything useful, but my sister reminded me this weekend of one little jewel. She told her on her wedding night that people think healthy marriages are 50/50, but really they are more like 90/10. Now, don't worry. The 90 is supposed to change up - sometimes you carry the load, sometimes your partner does. We are well matched with people who are not necesarily exactly like us, which means we each are responsible for different things - even emotionally. This isn't a bad thing. Now, all us DBers here are carrying more tlike 99.9% right now, and will for a while, but this is a the worser, the poorer and the sickness we all talked about in our vows. Time to pony up. I don't know about your SIL's assertion that women always carry the burden (she might change her tune if she read up on GH, RB, Parob, MrMD and others here) but just wanted to add my mom's 2 cents after 38 years of marraige. BTW - good for you for not getting defensive when she said this. What great self-control. Aren't you glad she felt close enough to you to even bring it all up with you?

D also told him that OW is not planning to leave her H amd family, but that we want him in our family. And she capped it off by saying she loves him.

Isn't it wild how our relatives can talk openly when we can't? I finally told my sister about my sitch over Easter, and when H returned from seeing OW, there she was saying "I love you and want you to know there is room for you in our family." H told me how "nice" sister was to him. If I had said the same thing, he would have felt I was giving him a guilt trip. Now, it is possible that he still feels pressured by this - and that's why I'm bringing it up. If pressure from us is no good, then pressure from D is likely dangerous as well. Beware of thinking she is your secret agent. It might be worth letting H know she is talking on her own behalf, and is not your mouthpiece. (?)

It is tiring, draining, to be so thoughtful of every action I make, every thing I say, and to be so analytical of everything that is transpiring so that I can figure out what to do or say at that next short encounter. We have so little time together, and my life is moving. He is still giving the emotional attention that I want to another. I have concerns that I could come through for him emotionally (I would do everything in my power to achieve that) if we recommitted, but I'm not sure that he will come through for me even if he drops the OW. I am not sure that he will make the effort.
Yes, yes. Constant attention and analysis is too exhausting. I'm going to give you advice that I am working on taking myself: Let it go. Don't try to second guess his every step. Note the improvements for sure in your goals journal, but then move on. Focus on yourself. You can't know if he will return, if he will be able to offer you enough if he does, or even if this is worth saving right now. I trust, though, that you will know when you get there. Now, here's a bit of advice from a crsuty old soldier my husband used to work for: saw the wood in front of you or you never get through the pile. Honestly, its a luxury to be debating the terms of reconciliation, and we are not there yet. Saw the log in front of you.

I am wanting to have a R talk. I wanted to say at least, that I have a request - that if he has a complaint about me that he bring it to me, not others (such as OW or D). On the phone, H said he wanted this to be handled "between us", so I'd like him to create that instead of just expect it from me. Is that OK? I want him to share his feelings about me directly with me. Even his anger, his disappointment, his resignation.

Okay, this is the advice I am least sure of - but here goes: Don't. Don't try for an R talk in the name of honesty. I think you are falsely assured by D's successful talk with him that you too could have a heart to heart. I don't think you can. You are not his step daughter, you are his wife. And, trust me, I don't think you do want to hear what he thinks about how you "failed" the M, or pushed him to the A or any other silly crap these WAH's have told themselves to *rationalize* the A. When he decided he wants to recommit, you will identify the things that made him ripe for the A to happen, but right now his head is filled with lies, and I think it is best if they keep it to themselves. SO much of what they think now will just fade away if they come through the alien fog, and I think it would only hurt you and confuse you in the meantime. Also, in my experience, H is lying left and right anyway, so how could you trust anything he says?

Alright. Enough from me. I want you to know I admire how you are moving in such a stepwise fashion. I love your attitude. In the meantime, remember that it doesn't matter if H is warm toward you because of guilt or love or anything else. Just know that you will KNOW when he is sure he wants you. Until then, just keep taking care of yourself and remember your goal: to keep a safe space for your marriage. Indeed, it is a sacred place, even in the midst of all this.
erin

[angstuff1]

Erin,
I liked reading your words of advice, even if they weren't for me. I feel like I'm begging, but if you have a chance, check on me, will you? I could use a friend on the board.

[RBinBR]

PL, I'm with Erin -- DON'T do the R talk. The best reason not to is that the WAS mind is torn and vacillating. Anything your H might say is something that he might change his mind about the next day.

His convo with your D was very interesting ... and very beneficial, in my opinion. His convo with your sister also shows that some family knowing CAN sometimes be beneficial. It all depends on the sitch and the person in question -- can they help or not?

With respect to your concerns about how the reconciliation process will work (or if it will work), I would advise that it's not wrong to think about those things, but take things a day at a time and some of those things will become clear eventually. For now, you know that you want another shot at a real marriage.

As for whether or not he's making progress, keep in mind that sometimes progress isn't linear and can come in large chunks. That's why patience is so important, which is good because you seem to have it.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Erin,

Thanks so much for stopping in and providing such great feedback and advice. I am so appreciative. This was awesome:

I'm going to give you advice that I am working on taking myself: Let it go. Don't try to second guess his every step. Note the improvements for sure in your goals journal, but then move on. Focus on yourself. You can't know if he will return, if he will be able to offer you enough if he does, or even if this is worth saving right now. I trust, though, that you will know when you get there.

That is exactly what I needed to hear yesterday, and has helped me be where I am at today. Got up early and went to church. It was so moving I cried (did that last week too in Calgary). But this was the first time other than Christmas and New years Eve that I have been back to my church, since before I got married. I went steadily for 16 years and then with my daughter grown up and H not interested, stopped going. It was really powerful for me to go and the message really called to me, and of course unbeknownst to me, a special occasion at the church today - the minister's birthday and a famous gospel singer there as a surprise. It was absolutely fabulous. Treated myself to Sunday lunch out after, then made some store returns which covered my lunch and some flowers for the garden. I've been potting all afternoon, and it is a georgeous sunny day here. I am in love with my home and my life today.

So here's the funny thing. It feels like the pendulum swings too far to the other side when it swings, inside of me. As I feel powerful and happy today (unlike yesterday when I was feeling lonely and weepy) I am pretty removed from caring about my H. I'm enjoying a day to myself, in the sunshine. I'm sick of all of his created drama and indecision. It's hard not to think he's an idiot for doing what he's been doing. He could LOSE ME, any minute, and he doesn't even get that it matters yet. Just venting here, but REALLY. I'm smart, cute, funny, a good cook, a great mom, we have a beautiful home (which will stay with me if we split) and I adore him, absolutely. He's living in a rented room, having a skanky inter-continental long-distance affair with a married OW who will not be leaving her husband and children, and who slips him in to her work trips for a quick weekend rendezvous. This is the first issue we've ever had since I have known my H, where I have risked losing respect for him. If I truly lose respect for him, I know I will fall out of love with him. It is a slippery slope. He told my D that he's on the fence about our M. Well, I'm thinking things through too. I'm looking for something. That same man that I married, the one with integrity and vision and aliveness, the one who cared about me and thought I was the most amazing human being he had ever met. The one who believed in me and thought we'd grow and grow and learn and grow together forever.

Fortunately, I read a lot of posts on the MLC board last night. Since I am quite sure that my H is in some kind of MLC, it was SO helpful to read those posts and see that he is doing a whole lot of the things they talk about and witness there. In a fog a lot of the time, withdrawal, unpredictably moody, and preceding the A and the lying and "uncharacteristic behavior", there was a precipitating event that scared the begeesus out of him (his son was going to immigrate from Germany to live with us and his son is currently the same age as H when he was sexually abused as a child) as well as financial pressure that I was pouring on pretty heavy at that time. So I read the MLC stuff, and then I think, poor guy, he's lost and in a MLC fog - be patient and he'll have an awakening. That's what I signed up for, to be his loving wife and to stick with him for better or for worse. This is the "for worse" as far as I am concerned. He couldn't have done anything that would have shaken me more. But I gave my word, and I do love him.

But isn't all that so arrogant too? He thinks his R with the OW is "real". It feels real to him. It looks like fantasy, smoke and mirrors, deception and lies to me. I think I'm the "real thing", a real life human being, problems to solve, warts and all. I like his imperfections too - funny how you can find that out when they're not around. While I was gone he stayed here - put the TP on the roll "upside down" and folded the towels differently. I can't believe it used to bug me, when you miss someone those things take on such a different tone. But also, I thought to myself, he comes back and I have to make peace with that stuff forever. It's never going to matter to him, and I doubt he will make those changes since it hasn't mattered to him yet. And I could go on and on in my head, so you are SO RIGHT. Saw the wood that's in front of you, don't look at the pile or you'll never get through it. Today I planted flowers, and that was good. But I wonder all the time about my capacity to do this. Sometimes I feel like I will never be able to get it right, and I struggle with the thought of failing at the one thing I most wanted in my life, and waited so long for - my marriage to my H. But I know, it takes two (or at least at some point it will). This was a really great message from you, too:

She told her on her wedding night that people think healthy marriages are 50/50, but really they are more like 90/10. Now, don't worry. The 90 is supposed to change up - sometimes you carry the load, sometimes your partner does. We are well matched with people who are not necesarily exactly like us, which means we each are responsible for different things - even emotionally. This isn't a bad thing. Now, all us DBers here are carrying more tlike 99.9% right now, and will for a while, but this is a the worser, the poorer and the sickness we all talked about in our vows. Time to pony up.

I know I did my share to get us to this crisis point, and right now, if my M is really as important as I say it is, I need to get off the high horse, be humble as it takes, and just do the work. The pendulum which swings between arrogant know-it-all and needy potential doormat leaves detachment and unconditional love smack on the balance point - right? Hopefully I will find that balance easier and easier each day.

Truthfully, if my H dropped in tonight (he won't, he's still at my D's) but if he did even tonight with all of my perceived aloofness about him present throughout the day, I know I'd still be really happy as soon as I saw him. He rocks my world. Hardest thing for me is to be a little more aloof when he's around. He's always made me light up. But I guess that's not a bad thing, as long as I am not "overly enthusiastic" about every little word and gesture and step. He does seem to be soaking up the words of appreciation though. My H is tricky, because he runs (which I can't pursue!) but he blooms for appreciation and acknowledgement. Most of my DBing has involved a lot more of that. Likely the demanding arrogant know-it-all was the most visible part of me once he withdrew and before I got to DBing. Bummer, to learn this lesson the hardest way. I regret every unkind word, every angry tone, I ever uttered. I could have done much better. I was asleep at the wheel, I am sure of that now. I am so awake now. I will hope and pray that one day, there will be an opening for him to see me clearly and what I am up to. We could grow and learn and grow together again. I know it. Meanwhile I will DB and plant and water the flowers.

One of the things I also read on the MLC board, is to think about what are the impressions of other people in your life about your marriage? Because if your friends and family thought you were great together, then this is likely MLC rearing it's ugly head, and you have a good chance to preserve your marriage if you are patient and DB. If on the other hand, if people wondered why you were ever together, you might not make it through to the other side. Well, everyone in our life thinks we had an amazing R, and until the last year we did. Some people who know us still refer to us as "love birds" if they are not aware of our current situation. So that helps me be patient too. There is nothing that would make me happier than to see him on the other side of MLC, with an "awakening" and the two of us more in love than ever. How to get from here to there remains an inquiry But one day at a time, one foot in front of the other, one log to saw at a time, as you say.

This is my favorite thing you wrote:

In the meantime, remember that it doesn't matter if H is warm toward you because of guilt or love or anything else. Just know that you will KNOW when he is sure he wants you. Until then, just keep taking care of yourself and remember your goal: to keep a safe space for your marriage. Indeed, it is a sacred place, even in the midst of all this.

I will keep that in my heart. Thank you so much for giving me such wonderful words of encouragement.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB, Thanks so much for checking in with me. I am sure you are both right:

I'm with Erin -- DON'T do the R talk.

I won't initiate anything. But, I
suppose it is possible that he will want to have a R talk with me at some point since he mentioned it on the phone. And I am hearing you say that not much of what he says will stick from one day to the next anyway. So, I am thinking I should prepare for anything, so I won't react - right? Like, what if he says, "I'm moving to Germany, have a great life" ? Or, "I want to move back in with you, and be your friend and business partner and stay married, but keep OW on the side indefinitely"? Or, "I know what you're like and you'll never change" which for some reason really ticks me off (and I know he thinks that - and he said it too, to my D) I am unprepared for most of the bad and awful things that he could easily say. The only one I really know how I will respond well to, is "I love you, will you forgive me?" And I'm not expecting that talk any time soon.

So, even if I don't initiate an R talk, should I avoid one? That would be weird. Seems like if he ever opens up, I should be a good listener. So what do I say to things like those possibilities above? "OK", "that makes sense", "I'm sure you're right?" Holy moly!

You're an angel for seeing me as a patient person. That gives me hope. Patience has never been my strong suit, I am a feisty over achiever. Hold me down.

But honestly, there is a part of me that can also be very grounded. Particularly in times of crisis, I slow way down, becoming careful and methodical. It is a zen experience to be DBing, right? A crisis can be a transformative experience, a spiritual awakening, a gift from God.

Must make lemonade from the lemons - or at least see that lemonade is possible. And meanwhile, one day (or one lemon) at a time.

This gave me hope:

As for whether or not he's making progress, keep in mind that sometimes progress isn't linear and can come in large chunks.

It has mostly felt like 2 steps forward, 1 3/4 steps back. But nonetheless, that's progress, isn't it? I will keep my eye out for some big chunks, though. Maybe that is my impatience talking, my straight line linear drive thinking. In fact, I am sure you are right - progress is occuring, perceptibly. Maybe even some chunks. I will keep writing it down, so as not to fool my self with my impatience. I need to set some new baby step goals to look for. Believe it or not, most of the last group I wrote down have occured! I guess that is progress!

BTW, went to church today as I did last week. Helped me SO much. I have been listening to gospel music all day, which I purchased there. I will be making an appointment to see the minister this week also. I want spiritual guidance and alignment to support this journey. Thank you as always for your good advice and prayers.

[RBinBR]

So, I am thinking I should prepare for anything, so I won't react - right? Like, what if he says, "I'm moving to Germany, have a great life" ? Or, "I want to move back in with you, and be your friend and business partner and stay married, but keep OW on the side indefinitely"? Or, "I know what you're like and you'll never change" which for some reason really ticks me off (and I know he thinks that - and he said it too, to my D) I am unprepared for most of the bad and awful things that he could easily say. The only one I really know how I will respond well to, is "I love you, will you forgive me?" And I'm not expecting that talk any time soon.

I'll say it again -- none of things that he says mean anything! My W has told me several of them. She's told me that she loved me and ended it with the OM and asked for my forgiveness, and she's told me that she wants a divorce to marry the OM ... and both times she's then changed her mind and we're still in limbo.

By all means have the R talk with him if he initiates it, though. Try to stay positive and don't get angry (advice I'm giving but didn't take last time). Just remember that the talk means nothing ... what he actually does is what counts.

[grasshopper]

I do my best to get my emotional needs met elsewhere and in other ways, but I am concerned I will "run out of gas" since there are only little bits from him to work with. It is tiring, draining, to be so thoughtful of every action I make, every thing I say, and to be so analytical of everything that is transpiring so that I can figure out what to do or say at that next short encounter.

First, great to hear you sound SO good. Now, this idea of being tired of all this is a toxic one. I am going through that right now too. Our sitches are different so my experience today does not necessarily correspond to yours except that I can tell you to do whatever it takes to keep your emotional stamina up. I have seen over the course of the last few weeks, as my W supposedly moves back towards me, that I could be seriously derailed by my fatigue and throw away all my hard work and dedication to this process because of it. Sometimes I just want to quit even though I know I would regret that decision for the rest of my life.

Here's the thing. You will never REALLY KNOW his motives are pure and that he will be able to offer/provide you what you need. All you will know is that he's committed to trying, same as you have. Maybe his trying is not the same as yours but as we have learned through all this, people do things differently but not necessarily better or worse. Try to see whatever positive actions he takes and build on those. Don't start putting expectations on things now just because you're in a good enough place to do so.

Plant a plant for me and have another GREAT day!

GH

[PositivelyListening]

First day back to work today after the nice vacation and weekend. Work feels exceedingly uneventful these days. I remember when my job was a 65 hour a week endeavor that was a combination of stressful challenge and exhilaration. These days most everything feels more important than my activities there. Thankfully, I have worked there a very long time and can probably keep my focus elsewhere for a bit longer without significant ramifications. I just notice that I'm still distracted and uninterested in it as a priority.

I hadn't heard from H since our Friday dinner, so decided to check in with him today. This is always a tricky dilemma for me, as many of you DBing are careful not to call or initiate contact so as not to pursue. However, my H appears to thrive on reassurance and according to the DB coach Chuck in my case the occasional "checking in" call and even periodic invitations from me are warranted and helpful to my DBing efforts. The key is not too much, not too often, and no reaction to whatever I get, it seems. Right now, my H will fade away and disappear, "unloved" and alone in his own world but acting like he prefers it, before he would ever say outloud that he needs or wants anything from me. This has been the case for at least a year. I don't remember it always being that way, I remember in the past he was more directive, and expressed more opinions and things he wanted from me and feelings and desires he had. The last year when he wasn't saying or sharing about himself, I was not reading it very well, so I just started taking care of what I wanted, although I would get frustrated sometimes that he wouldn't say what he wanted. Asking never got me anywhere, and still isn't. It felt like all he was interested in was trying to second guess what he thought I wanted, stuffing his needs, trying to please me, and secretly resenting it all the way. Doesn't sound pretty does it? This may be the MLC thing. I think I must have appeared angry, self centered and spoiled in his eyes, as he kept working away without getting his needs met, and without being attentively acknowledged from me. I didn't know what to do, so I had begun to withdraw too, and busy myself with other things.

So H has been working day and night since last Tuesday on D's house which we own and are in the process of selling. We have had some trouble there with unpermitted additions made by previous owners that we are now stuck with correcting. The city has really come down hard because they discovered it and now we are selling - they don't want to start over with another owner, so have given us 10 days or a warrant for our arrest. Whoopee, I am such a law abiding citizen this feels like the worst trouble we've ever been in. I think I got a speeding ticket once. Well, I guess if we're gonna shake it up, we might as well do it in several areas of our lives at once. So H has been busting his butt down there, while I have been away on vacation and home potting plants. He is feeling sick now too, and of course he will retreat to his rented room tonight - offers of chicken soup and TLC not taken. I also offered to go down to D's house this weekend to help with the remainder of the needed work. And he says, "I can't see you doing that work. It will be dirty work, crawling around in the attic and stuff. I really can't see you doing that". He thought I might be good for packing a few boxes to help D prepare for her move, making a few arrangements, but that's all he could see. Well he's 6' 4" and I'm 5'5" so I could crawl around an attic a little easier, right? And I'm damn good at electrical, which he doesn't like to do. I seriously thought all day about not going though. Let him be the martyr rescuer victim, I'll stay home and paint my toenails, right? Geez, sometimes it would be so easy to be the spoiled b**** he seems to think I am.

So I'm thinking I will go. When I asked him if he wanted me to go with him this weekend, he said, "well you can come if you want to" twice. Typical. So I had to think hard about what I really want, in the event I get no reward from being with him. You know, like what has the better chance of making me feel better in the short and long term? Even decided to ask you guys. So here's what I'm thinking. In the 5 Love Languages, I am a Quality Time person. So time in the car, at D's house, doing whatever, will help fill my depleted Love Bank because I will get some time. I actually like my H as well as love him, and when we're together these days he is really very sweet to me. More each time. I also love providing service to others, so even if I don't get the acknowledgement from him, I will still know I did my part and that will feel good. Of course, he hasn't taken the Love Languages test, so I don't know for certain what love language he most needs. I think it is Words of Appreciation because of how much our R has improved since I started really making an effort to acknowledge all of the things he does. But he could be a Physical touch person, or an Acts of Service person (since he does these all the time for others). So these days, I am hitting all three of those as often as I can figure a way to do so considering our limited time together. I am thinking going down to the house and working hard with him is a 180 since he thinks I am only capable of managing the paperwork and making phone calls to get big guys like him to come over and do the real stuff. Last time I went down and worked on the house with him, it was one of our best weekends ever - I worked along side him, he shifted alot towards me that trip, we had quite a few baby steps and some nice snuggling besides. So what do you think? Am I on the right track, should I go?

Tonight I went to the movies by myself, saw On a Clear Day, a true story about a fellow who got fired from his job and swims the English Channel at age 59. That's what DBing is like. P.S. he made it :-)

[RBinBR]

So I'm thinking I will go. When I asked him if he wanted me to go with him this weekend, he said, "well you can come if you want to" twice. Typical.

That's because men don't like to acknowledge that they need help, or even want it. Go. He'll be grateful for your help, whether he acknowledges it or not.