my w and i are separated. she is w an op. been separated since december. D is pending. Have filed. Asked w to read DB and included DR for further reference. I said that if after reading she still wants out. I'll divorce her. Did I do wrong? What else can I do? I have used 180 and last resort technique. Some progress has been made. But probably got impatient. Read a letter in DR at the back that inspired me to use this approach.
I'm interested to hear what others say about giving DB to your spouse to read. I have thought of that myself, but wondered if I would be giving away all my "secret weapons". But, on the other hand, it is one of few books that is focused on pro-marriage, anti-divorce - which can be a positive thing.
Ok, Day 1. Day after dropping off the books I had asked my w about her injury she had the day earlier. She replied w/usual comments and then (this is 12p mind you and day 1 of her one week vacation) mentioned that she had skimmed through the books and that they were for people w children nothing relating to us. I then fell off my rocker. stating that the books do have situations w couples who do have children but it's about the couple's problems that was the issue. I then pleaded my case about how 'I have learned so much reading and can implement them in our relationship. Also that I wish I had the opportunity to read and study while we were still together. 'I messed up' I know now what can be done to solve our problems and prevent the stupid moronic problems that were present. My life has changed since and will stay that way because of how I have progressed.' She then mentioned that if I had not acted the way I did (pursuing, begging, pleading, depressed, etc. basic natural reactions) we would have had a chance to work things out but since then but so much has happened and she's realized alot. I then stated that in DR in Ch. 10 says that is a thing that is mentioned. No response. I kept 'texting' All we do is text eachother. Technology man. Texting is the way we communicate. No voices. Just texting. Anyway, back to the story....I wrote that 'So have I. I was stupid real stupid. I hung onto stupid ideas and actions that was unnecessary. I messed up. This lesson is going to stick. What I've learned is going to stick. My life has changed. With or without you I will still be a changed person. I really am sorry I didn't look for answers and solutions while I was still able to. Me then was not appealing.Me then was arrogant. Listening to bad advice. Drinking. Neighbors. Not wanting to do things with you like movies, playing w/her sister's kids.I've learned to prefer time w/you regardless where or how. Just to build a stronger relationship. I'm glad to give up a preference of mine for a greater preference whichis to have a good relationship. Peace and have maturity.' No response. By this time I'm thinking she just stopped reading my backing myself up. 2 hours pass. I write a letter. Pull some words out of it. and text her again. 'all in all I don't expect a change of heart so soon. I enjoy our friendship (o yea, I got to getting over being sad enough to be able to communicate w/my W about simple things and last week she was in the E.R. for her stomach and let me know that she didn't think she would be there alone cuz I would call in sick and whatever possible to be w/her the whole way through. She's in the hospital alot. ALOT. I offered to go over but she stated that she wouldn't be able to handle that. So I kept texting her w/ jokes and such. That next morning she text'd me that she had a very nice dream about me and thanking me for the day prior) don't wanna lose that by doing this. This will probably take years. And it probably won't. I can accept that. But it's all about baby steps. No rush either way. Time is our friend. Use it and let's take what we have very slow. Good judgement, patience is needed. DR ch. 10 xplains my initial reactions. Analyze since then. Rational thinking.' And that was the last thing I wrote to her today. Did she read it? Who knows. Thinking about apologizing about going off into my rant tomorrow.I'll consider it. Anybody have any advice? Also sorry about bouncing my story all over the place.
I hate to meet you like this but you will find help here.
First off, my advice is to STOP talking to her so much about this. You're like a general planning a war and telling the enemy all your plans to try and see if he'll tell you what he will do about it. Stop doing that. Sure, she's not your enemy but you get my point. You keep TELLING her all this when the point is to SHOW her. What you are doing now sounds a whole lot like the begging and pleading you claim not to be doing anymore, just with words you learned from DR/DB. It's still the same thing. Also, it seems like you want the quick fix. You keep telling her all these things and I guess you expect her to just say "Oh, you're right and I have been SO wrong in all this. I'll be back tomorrow and we can go back to our lives again." What you are doing when you do that is invalidate her feelings and make her wrong. You don't want to make her wrong, or you right. You need to get over that. She IS NOT WRONG. She just has a different perspective, and a different feeling about your M right now. In a marraige there ofetn is not a right and wrong, just two different ways of looking at things. Come to understand that and try not to prove her opinion wrong so much as understand it.
Don't get me wrong, what you are doing COULD work. Different things work for different people but in my experience here, in my own sitch and in what I have read, what you are doing will backfire.
Try spending less time wondering about what she thinks about what you're doing and more time just doing it. IF your changes are indeed permanent, then she will need time to see that. No amount of you describing your changes will make them real to her any more than you saying I love you proves you really do.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, and please realize that many of us do this. It's how we start. I just want you to understand how it looks from the outside looking in.
I would stop talking to her about the books. You already gave them to her so you can't undo that, but continuing to go on about them is just another way you are trying to convince her you're right.
If I am off base with this, let me know. Also, it would help to have some more details about your sitch. Is this a PA or EA? How long is/was the affair? Is it over? What has she said to you? How did you find out? How was your R before all this? Did you suspect that this was possible? Really, anything that could give us insight into YOUR particular situation will help us give you more specific advice.
I really hope you make it through this. It is a terrible thing to experience, but IT CAN actually provide you a terrific opportunity for personal growth that ultimately could lead to your M being back and better than ever. It's all up to you at this point and you'll come to understand that.
If you have not already, I would suggest you continue to read (and DON'T tell her what you're reading, lol). "The Four Agreements" and "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" are a good place to start and not necessarily in that order. What you need to be reading about is how to validate opinions you DON'T agree with so that your W starts to feel safe expressing her feelings around you and not feeling you're just going to try to "be right" and not listen to her.
I'll be thinking of you and will keep up with your posts.
Ok. First of all no advice or comments are too harsh. I’ve heard a lot of heart wrenching things that now I have had to become not too emotionally attached. Thanks for the outsider looking in view. Truly thanks. About the sitch. We’ve been married for a year and a half. Before the engagement I had moved away for a job promotion. We had been broken up before I was about to leave. Realizing that I would miss her being gone I had pursued her. Got back with her. Then I moved. We talked a lot on the phone. Even went to bed with her on the line as comfort. (Free mobile to mobile) Valentine’s day was coming around. I arranged for her to fly to see me and spend time. I decided I wanted to propose to her on Valentine’s day. So we got engaged. She went back home. I was sad being away from her and family. I lived in a small (pop. 17,000 max?) town. Not much to do but be home sick. We decided that I would quit my job and move back. And move in with her and her mom. Til we got things straight on getting a house of our own. I would do anything for her. Cook, clean, run errands. Etc. Even during the marriage. Well, she began to want her freedom. She would tell me about this guy at work who would be nice to her and tell her that she had ‘nice pockets.’ I.e. nice ass. I didn’t think anything of it. She started going out without me. She wouldn’t want me to go out with her. Plus clubs are not my thing anyway. In my hayday I would go out to ‘raves’ and got into that kind of music and anything other than what the radios play. Well, finally I would notice that she would be talking to this ‘girl’ a lot. She told me that it was this dude’s sister. That was the name in her cell phone. One time while making love I had a feeling that she was with somebody else. I heard that the man can tell when their lady has been touched or has had sex with another man by the way ‘it’ feels. And I ‘felt’ that there was a change down there while in the action. (Trying not to be too descriptive, but also this has relevance later on. * sorry * ) So I asked her if there is somebody else during intercourse. Immediately she turned over and tuned herself off. No noise from her the rest of the night. Like a coma. I thought I royally messed up. I apologized. And apologized. And apologized. But I was still kinda curious. I recruited a friend (ex girlfriend) to call this number and see what happens. This guy answered claiming that the number is his and only his. So I confronted her about it. Me crying and all. She assured me that it was nothing. Things were looking better. We were doing stuff together more. So I dropped the issue. I thought I was stupid to even think that way. Then one day we were at a restaurant and this little girl passed by. Said Hi to my lady. Asking if my lady recognized her. Then proceeded to say that she is the OM’s cousin. And isn’t she his girlfriend. I blew up. She seemed not too worried. Asked me why I’m not eating. I asked her what was that all about. I already knew this dude’s name so hearing about being a girlfriend was a shock. She claimed that they had dated. I asked her if it was before or after we got engaged. It was after. We just sat down to eat. The first time we prayed together for a meal. Ironically it was probably the last too. I stormed out. She followed and convinced me to get in the car with her to take me home. I grabbed my stuff and left all the while she was trying to hold me crying and such. I didn’t call her names. I sat her down and left. Later that day I went back. We reconciled. She then claimed that she was depressed and got medical help for that. She has been on them since. Yeah she sleeps a lot and goes into tantrums. But antidepressants? I had been smoking weed. We would fight about that. Well, I quit smoking. Trust was a big issue for me for a while. Finally we got married. And finally I trusted her to go out with the same friends that helped her get with this guy. Things were great. She landed a high paying job, and so did I with the same company, different locations. Ethics was a big problem with me and I got fired. I ended up doing little jobs here and there. She didn’t seem to mind. We bought a house. And all the furnishings. All on credit. I couldn’t fit the bill but she said she could. she wanted the stuff. Then while working retail, the day after Thanksgiving we had planned to go out to a club. I got an early start drinking after work. She decided not to go and allowed me to have my fun. Well, I got really trashed and ended up kissing another girl. Right away I left the club. Don’t know how I made it home. Total blur. I felt really bad. Ugly. Disgusting. Friends told me not to tell my W about what had happened and just move on. Well, I told her two days later. She grew up in a broken home where here dad drank every day plus drugs. She had no problem with me having beer around until then. She stayed with me. I was happy. But I started having a beer here and there 2 or 3 months later. My neighbor would sit in his garage and have beers and we would just BS. This upset her. Little differences would arise and she started claiming that she wanted out. She couldn’t take this anymore. Then I would be walking on eggshells. This cycle went on for months. Finally in like October 05 we were doing good. No arguments nothing bad. I thought things were looking up. November we made love. I had the same feeling that she was with somebody else. Except this time I didn’t ask her during or even ask at all. I just thought it was a stupid thought and shouldn’t even suspect. But soom after she said she really wanted a divorce. One of her friends just divorced and was talking to my W about it. My W contacted the OM in October.. They communicated here and there secretly. All the while I was setting up marriage counseling where we would go. She wanted out. Counseling was a sham. It was that whole tell me about your parents and your relationship with them crap. We had one session together as a couple. The counselor suggested we split. At that time I thought the counselor was right. My W would have middle of the night conversations with the OM. Well we finally split. She kicked me out of the house. On Christmas Eve she called me to tell me she has been dating. Christmas day she told me it was with the same dude as last time. But then she said he was there for her emotionally. Then I started the acting depressed, pursuing, begging, pleading. The whole nine. The OM started sleeping over. Now he’s probably there 24/7. I have a buddy that is really struggling. My W got to be friends with his W and offered them to stay with her at the house at no charge but to just keep the house clean. The W had been cleaning our house for a few weeks to help them out financially. They’re there as well with their kids. I try not to ask anything about what’s going on. But I do know by neighbors telling me is that the OM is there a lot. Recently I started being friendly. And we were texting a lot more. After skimming through the books she said she still wanted a divorce. I said ok. It’s obvious you read and if that’s what you want ok. She asked me why I’m being passive aggressive. I was confused and said that how can she be so sure that we’re not right while this other dude is there waiting on her hand and foot. She said that’s not the case and she has been seeing a therapist and that the therapist says that divorce is the right thing to do. So I said why doesn’t your therapist see me and then make that decision versus just relying on her side of the story. She wouldn’t have that. So here’s where I fell off my rocker again. I stated that it sounds like you’re looking for the therapist’s word to say that we’re not meant to be. Without really giving us a chance. So you’ll be able to sleep in peace knowing that some therapist agrees with you and not being very solution orientated. I don’t think you really got deep into those books. Your mind is very closed and you’re still hurt. Plus you’re confused and unhappy. I’m sad. Well, that totally backfired. Now she doesn’t want our friendship to continue. So I apologized and told her that yeah we can’t be friends right now. I hope she changes her mind about that and what I said was wrong and uncalled for. We’ve communicated since. I accidentally sent her a picture of me flexing ( I started working out again and am photographing my progress) with words that mentioned my dad getting surgery. The next day she asked me about my pops and was happy for me being healthy again. Asked me to keep her posted about my pops and wanted to call my parents that night. She didn’t call. Two days later I asked her about her calling my parents and she said she got busy but she still wanted to call in the future. That’s where I stand. I left some money issue things out and some other stuff out. But that’s the picture. Ok. Advice?
Rinse and repeat. You "accidentally" sending her a picture of you that coincidentally showed you in great shape (I assume that was not the case until recently) that also was attached to an email about your dad being sick sound a WHOLE lot like a blatant attempt at manipulation to me. How did you accidentally send that email?
Anyway, like I said, hearing the whole story, I still hold to my original opinion that you need to start using the advice found in the books for YOU and not for her. You said she responded to you you pushing her to read the books, etc, by saying she didn't want to be friends, right? Well, in my opinion that was because you were doing everything BUT validating her, something that OM AND HER THERAPIST are doing daily. I know it sucks to seem to be agreeing with things you detest, but you are not agreeing when you validate, you are just letting them know their opinions, ESPECIALLY the ones you disagree with, are important to you, and valid. After she knows you respect her opinion, sure, let her know you disagree, but that's not important to her right now. SHE KNOWS you still love her. She knows you want to reconcile, and she surely knows you hate the idea of OM. You don't need to keep repeating these things in hopes that the 1001st time she'll finally HEAR you and come running back.
The fact is that she's gone now. Not forever, and not with eyes closed to you, but you keep acting, or at least it seems like it based on what you've posted, like you think something OTHER than her free volition will bring her back to you. Only her thinking it would be GOOD to be with you again will do that. Only her seeing you as the better option will bring her back. Do you honestly think you've been projecting that idea?
It's REALLY hard to do what you need to do, and even if you don't succeed in doing it 100%, any improvement you make to yourself will pay dividends. You mentioned needing to not be too emotionally attached. Well, maybe it's too soon for that. Emotions run high in your sitch, and you may just have to ride that wave for awhile until time or effort calms you down. So, maybe just work on doing one little thing for you each day, something that you've wanted to do but haven't for some reason when you were married. I know this whole sitch puts a "this sucks" filter on everything, but trust me, that fades after awhile. It really does and then you can start to do more things. I know there were weeks on end where I just sat around and wallowed. It's normal, not healthy, but normal.
SO, you have the OM, W's therapist, and recent history going against you. Now you have to make the couple things that ARE on your side work for you, namely, YOUR attitude/actions and her memories of your better days which are tied together. My simple yet impossible advice then is to become the man you really are by stripping away all the negative, self defeating stuff and trying to be more positive and self confident. Become the man she fell in love with, but don't do it with the expectations that she'll fall back in love with you. It's the hardest thing to realize for us all; that we CANNOT control nor predict what they will do, but through our own behavior, words and actions we CAN still influence how they perceive us and thus possibly win back their affection, but that winning CANNOT be the sole reason for your improvement.
Look, time helps, it really does so long as the time is spent doing things that will help, not hurt the sitch. We ALL make mistakes, the key is to not repeat them TOO much.
I think you will get on track and start to do what you need to do. I will keep reading and posting.
Man, I'm sorry that you and your W have been through so much.
I'm going to be blunt and suggest that you get another copy of Divorce Remedy and read it again. You need to start over at the beginning.
You are pursuing your W relentlessly, which is no-no #1.
You are pressuring her to read the books, change her therapist (or allow you to meet with her), and call your parents.
STOP pressuring her now! In fact, stop texting or calling her now! The only reason you should contact her is if there is an important financial issue or something that can't wait, and even then you should try to avoid contacting her.
What are you doing to change your life and become a better person? You cheated on her when you kissed that girl in the bar. How does she know that won't happen again? And why shouldn't she cheat if you're going to? And don't tell her that you'll never do it again -- change and become a better person and let her see that.
Quit drinking! It's clear that your alcohol use has become a problem for you. You used to smoke weed, and now it seems that you've changed your drug of choice.
Work on getting a better career. You said that ethics was a problem for you and that cost you a good job. What have you done about that? Are you doing anything to become a better person so that something like that never happens again?
Do you have any religious beliefs? If so, then I suggest that you go to church. If not, then you need to figure out some kind of code that you intend to live your life by and start following it.
You need to fix your life before your W is going to want to be a part of it.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Somehow you need to step out of the loop you're currently in: you've got to stop the cycle. It's destructive to any hope of positive reconcilliation.
Follow the solid advice others have given you and help your W change her focus by showing--show her by your sincere actions and changes: forget the round and round loop you're in right now--round and round trying to figure things out, etc. Stop the ride--show her you've changed--back off and let some mystery happen. Make her wonder what you're up to when she sees any little change--make her inquisitive instead of telling her everything--make her wonder by letting her glimpse some small miracles/altered behavior on your part.
ok. Today was kinda crazy. I printed up all of your reply's. They're helpful. Thanks. About the whole situation I do understand that it is still being needy. First of all yeah I intentionally sent that picture to her but made it seem that it was to somebody else. No more of that. Promise.
Yesterday I called my buddy that is living at the house if he could pay me back the money I had lent him. He met me and claimed that my W wanted the garage door remote. I told him nah. Then I asked my W if she could help out with the cell bill she racked up on me.The day before that, I had gone by the house to pick up the DB/DR books. My W wasn't there. My buddy's W was. I heard his kids in the garage. So I used the remote to open the garage. I scared the kids. All in fun. But I saw alot of boxes inside. My W last night found out and asked me what was up with that. I explained. She asked me for the remote. I ignored her. This morning she then asked me if now I'm going to ignore her. I told her that first of all I shouldn't have had her read those books. it was stupid and all that followed.I had told her that I am not going to give it up the remote. Because I might need it when if I move back in. She claimed that since the way I acted in the past it scares her that I still won't give it up. I told her that whatever is there in the house I don't care. OM's or not. I don't care. I have no reason to step foot on that property and she shouldn't worry. She seemed ugly about the situation and i told her that if she kept being ugly I will be ignoring her. I don't want a war. I don't want to argue. A friend mentioned that I may be coming off very needy and 'psycho' to her. So I text'd that I may seem needy and such but I am having fun with life. And I don't need her to feel great. There's plenty of women that'll be glad to be with me. She responded by saying that that's not the point but I seemed to have forgotten all that she had paid for when we were together and I can't pay for a cell bill how can I pay for a mortgage. I said I suppose I didn't pay for anything. She asked me if that was sarcastic. I responded: "Sorry it seems that way, Ya you have the good paying job. Remember some things though. "We're tight on money" "Ok babe I'll get a second job" "No wait. I'll miss you, I'll take care of it" "I'll go to school to get more money (I'm just 2 classes away)" "I don't wanna wait" I had solutions. We had an agreement. Now you throw it back at me. No matter what you weren't pleased." No response to that yet. I know it's still in the same cycle. But how do I not respond? How do I turn the tables? In response to questions. Months before the separation I had cut back on drinking. She noticed. She said it was great. But she still wanted out. I am still reluctant to drink a beer. I'm really taking my health seriously. It's better being sober. I do have religious beliefs. In the past few weeks I have been volunteering at church. I have taken a good look at myself and have made dramatic changes. Trying to find a better job. Right after this I'm going to revise my resume and post for several positions locally. With which I qualify for with a substantial gain in social status. Hey, maybe I can afford that house. I don't think I'll be able to live there because of all the memories. But I do believe I am taking great leaps towards being that changed person. Also getting back to being 'me' again. In the past 2 months we have been communicating on a great level. I would validate her concerns. I would say that I am to blame. I understand why. I understand what's going on. I see her point. I don't blame her. Then we would exchange pictures of our cats and dog and such. I have the dog. She has the cats. I was noticing improvement. What do I do now?
You're still pushing pretty hard--back way off and allow some silent time (no texting--no suggesting--no telling her you'll be fine with all the other women available on the menu, etc., etc. She'll never see you if you keep doing those kinds of things.
When you go to pick up books--just pick them up and leave--be mysterious--don't be so transparent--she doesn't have to read a book--she can read you!
Go dark--you should remember that from the books. Go dark--spin some mystery--only have essential contact for a while--no more dreaming up reasons to have contact. Do a 180--be someone else for a while, and get her wondering what happened--what's going on over there....
Keep reading--get professional advice--read and reread the articles on the homepage of this site. Do someting different for a while--it will give you new strength and focus--new positive energy--it will eventually make you attractive again.
